I suppose that's the rationale.

Still, it seems absurd to me. If I played the grading game, cracking a 9 would seem a better bet than taking chances with Internet images or sub-optimal card show lighting.

Oh well. What do I know? I collect cards, not flips.

(yeah, I know...the flip is the commodity these days)

Pretty serious allegations with little to back them up, seems to me. What do you think? As for the National, as the song goes, I don't get around much any more, sorry to say. Just embarked on my 80th year, bring it to D.C., Baltimore, or Philly, though, and I'm there in a heartbeat. You going?

Ask the 3rd class passengers on the Titanic how it works. Not much has changed since 1912. Baltic Fox called it right - money talks.

I saw it first hand a few years ago on New Years Eve over in Coral Springs. One of the attorneys my wife worked for (paralegal) held a little hoop tee do in their exclusive cul de sac. He arranged for a flatbed trailer with commercial fireworks. But he didn't give a thought to a permit. Sure enough, Broward County Sheriff's Office showed up, and the 2 deputies walked up to Ronnie and asked to see the permit. Ronnie pulled out his wallet and started pulling out $100 bills. He asked how much does it take to get a permit? At about 6 or 7, the deputies said that will do it, took the money, and drove away.

I will, of course, but the burden of proof is on those making such serious accusations. So far, I haven't seen squat.

Great song. Here's a Duke Ellington instrumental version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEIhNZd9xEE

The OP asked for people's views. By stating mine I did not assume any burden to prove anything to anyone or convince someone who has not read anything on the subject even though lots has been posted. Nor did anyone else who is of the same view, and they are legion. If you are interested start with the Blowout threads, there's a sticky at the top of the baseball forum and go from there. Read the Joe C. thread I linked, although that just involves preferential grading not altered cards. With all respect, saying "I haven't seen squat" doesn't mean much when you haven't read what is out there.

In response to the OP's question:

Is a bullfrog waterproof?

I see a lot of people opining, but would love actual data on this. I have to wonder if people are confusing noise for bias.

It's a sample of 1, but an auction house submitted a card for me recently to PSA and it got a solid 1-2 grades below what I anticipated.

Not arguing that any of the companies are above doing so, just would love actual data.

TPGs do not tell us who submit cards. There is no data. One can try to reconstruct subs to make observations but with millions of cards out there that would be an absurd project. And what would be the point anyhow?

I haven't looked at Ruth Cards, but have looked at a handful of special cards. And they generally have more lenient grades than commons.

Nice. I remember it well from my youth, a "standard" as they would say.

Fair enough. But just because I was looking for anyone who would make such a serious accusation as that the TPGs are in collusion with their biggest customers to game the system in their favor to show at least a modicum of backup for that claim doesn't mean I wanted to do a lot of homework to develop an opinion of my own. That burden should be on those answering the question in the positive, a very serious charge, indeed. And I would still be interested in some details in this thread about how this all works, i.e., is it just the very biggest AHs and dealers among all the big ones? are they paying extra for these preferences, and if not how are the TPGs benefiting from activities that could sink their entire business if this became widely believed? Why would collectors continue to participate in a game they thought was rigged against them and costing them tons of money? I don't see it, I just don't. Isolated examples? Sure. Endemic to the hobby? Then why does such a corrupt hobby continue to exist, if not flourish?

Not passing judgment on the facts here, but as a practical matter, lots of insalubrious hobbies, industries, and organizations continue for a long, long time simply because we all decide we want to keep it going. Whatever its flaws, the participants decide that it's worth having and continuing. At least until such time as they decide that it's no longer worth continuing, or it gets supplanted by a better option.

Since you seem to like examples, without naming specifics, just about every company is flawed in some fashion, often deeply, yet its customers keep coming back, often because there is no better alternative. Certainly you could make a similar argument about the business of producing and distributing controlled substances, although their addictive properties may be an element that sets them apart from garden variety pursuits like collecting cardboard.

And if you want to get more metaphysical, then you could point to just about every religion and government as being in the same boat. In some cases, including that whole notion of corruption that you raised.

Note for Leon and the moderators: The last paragraph was deliberately generic to avoid touching on religion or politics in any specific fashion, but I'm happy to revise if I've crossed the line.

To answer your last question, because, as I like to say, stuff trumps all. This hobby for many if not most people has become all about the numbers on the flip. The more slabbed cards are out there with high grades, the more money everyone makes. Take care of your best customers, and they will keep coming back. Do you think if PSA had not taken care of high volume modern submitters it would have been able to displace and crush Beckett which at one time was the market leader in modern? People submit to make money. People make money by getting higher grades. Back in the day, vintage grew the same way. Do you really think all those 8s and 9s filling up the set registries are pristine cards from virgin sets?

THIS is spot-on. They are waaaaaaaay tougher on the star players. The more that's at stake, the harder you'll get screwed on the grade. Guaranteed.

This is why when you have a good card a really good one you should go with the higher service level vs sneaking it in budget and trying to get a call for an upcharge.

Can we all agree that
 

the higher the grade, the more value is perceived by bidders and sellers ? It seems logical to me to believe that AHs feel the same way.

By way of a specific example, I recall when a lady collector was consigning her modest collection to REA. She told us on Net54 that she offered to have her cards graded and assume the cost. REA politely told her not to. They would do so. The reason may have been that they could get a faster turn around (this was a long time ago). The consignment was heavy in DeLongs, and REA would be in a position to educate the graders on the special problems with that issue (narrow borders) . My own thoughts on the matter say that where money is involved, and no way to "prove" anything like in a court of law, that "devil take the hindmost."

I've bought some cheap 70s and 80s HOF slabs from 4SC to crack out and get signed. Usually PSA 9s. I have been absolutely shocked at how awful many of them look after cracking them. 6s and 7s at best.

Hankphenom is going to need to see proof of that. Do you have video, affidavits and expert witnesses? Anything short of that is just disgruntled collectors acting up and he will just not believe it.

This is completely antithetical to the general consensus of this thread, i.e., that the TPGs are in cahoots with the big AHs and dealers to provide higher grades for their cards. It's the star cards that anybody would want bumped as much as possible due to the incredible market differential
between the grades. So which is it?

Phil said it was a completely different question.

"How about another question,"

Huh?

The answer to Phil's question has nothing to do with the answer to the OP's question. Phil himself said it was a completely different question. You are drawing a false inconsistency in post 100. Sorry if my prior post was not clear.

Fallacies of Inconsistency

Fallacies of inconsistency are cases where something inconsistent, self-contradictory or self-defeating is presented.

ie: - “One thing that we know for certain is that nothing is ever true or false.” – If there is something we know for certain, then there is at least one truth that we know. So it can’t be the case that nothing is true or false.

Just seemed to me that if the big boys were calling the shots on grading in general, they would certainly be calling them on the cards on which they make the most money for themselves and their clients. Where's the inconsistency there?

There's no point debating this further. If you choose to believe it's a level playing field, may the force be with you.

There are two groups of submitters described here. You are using data from the masses to disprove results of the few.

I don’t have solid proof without whistleblowers, however there is certainly enough circumstantial smoke to lean toward preferential grading for premier newsworthy items and mass submitters. The amount of high grades on borderline cards from places like 4 Sharp certainly raises some curiosity. I’ll play it safe on my statements, but I would say to make your own observations.

Money talks EVERYWHERE. Why naively think it doesn't happen with cards?

I don't believe. I just can't believe it. Can you provide evidence or some kind of proof to your assertion?

No one wants all the BS that comes with providing proof. I used to call out a lot of the crooks in our hobby. I have had a fellow member have his lawyer send me a nice letter, I have had a fellow member and several of his friends attack my ebay account by buying everything I had listed and then on the last day possible they all filed returns, I have had a fellow member straight up call me many many horrible names and say he can and will do anything he wants to the cards he sells, and that is just a small portion of what I have personally endured from calling out hobby scum. Now and for several years I just figure F the morons buying their altered crap and don't feel sorry for those being taken advantage of in the least.:)

Fellow (current) members or former members?

Uh… who’s Jason Taytum? Did he trim the Honus?

He is a pro athlete. I believe Peter is saying Mr Tatum would be able to get an appointment almost instantly when most of us it would be several months away at the soonest. Not everything is even in life, heck really very little is.

I think the answer to the original question is yes, but I can't prove it. I also agree with the assertion that there are certain cards that PSA refuses to grade any more 10's of in order to keep the PSA10 a rarity (think key 1980's rookie cards). However, I also can't offer proof of this. It's more of an observation. I can only point to the number of examples submitted versus the number of PSA10's graded.

How about those collectors that are at the top of their set or player registry of top vintage sets or top vintage players. I absolutely believe they get preferential treatment. Maybe not all the time, but often enough.

I can assure you from personal experience, that is not true.

Can’t speak for all of us registry goons, but 95% of my Mays collection was purchased already graded. The small handful of pieces that are impossible to find already graded that I have purchased raw and then submitted have mostly graded at 1, with a few that pop all the way up to 3 or 4 on rare occasions.

I did the same thing when I started collecting Kobe rookie cards. I knew I would never get the grade I wanted if I submitted it myself, so I just bought cards already graded.

Ok lets spin this a different way

Does the tier ie cost of grading impact the grade. When I had my store I had a customer tell me that if I would up charge the card he had heard the grades come back higher.

So this $500 card I could grade at the $50 or the $100 level. Does the level ie price paid to grade the card impact the grades...

James G

I do think there's a small correlation there, but not for the reason you might think.

I do think the higher price point tends to mean that your piece will get directed to the people who know what they're doing, particularly with vintage grading, and are able to take a few extra seconds checking out your piece, whereas the bulk price point tends to be populated by newer graders who haven't graded as much vintage, and have about 3 seconds to formulate their opinion on the grade.

Is the Pope Catholic?

Good scenario James. You might get a more reliable PSA grader & reviewer.

From my experience, PSA is just as inconsistent at the $10k value level as the 20 card bulk sub. I've heard mixed results at the $25k value level.