Probably not for a dad/mom who never collected and their kid wants a piece of their favorite player. Those are the top marks here — there are millions of them.

Yes, and especially when the "autograph" is a couple barely distinguishable initials maybe followed by a squiggle or dash.

I feel bad for kids who saved up to buy something signed by one of their heroes. If I owned Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle or Robinson signed cards I'd be shitting my pants now. If you can forge a signature on a football you can certainly do it on a card.

Listen to old judge and sell me your signed Ruth’s and Robinsons please


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As long as the autographed cards are in slabs they won’t lose their value.

I wonder why no signed Ruth rookie has ever been found? I guess he just signed on the later, less valuable cards.

What I don't understand is that the fellow implied that he was a computer hacking whiz as well as a master counterfeiter. Well why then didn't he have a fake ID or three set up for when he was on the verge of being exposed? With all the money he made, he could then have easily lived very comfortably in several places after disappearing, e.g. a luxury condo in a big city such as New York where nobody knows his neighbours and out-of-the-way seasonal resorts from Maine to Wisconsin to Alabama and Louisiana accustomed to tourists coming and going? Why did he choose to eat a bullet instead?

:confused:

I disagree. Why would anyone pay big money for an autographed card that they fear could be a fake and incur the risk of the card being exposed, or even fingered, as a fake?

:confused:

I think that risk was there even before this news. Several collectors wouldn’t touch post production autographs. Several collectors would. I don’t think this news sways anyone. And I don’t think this frankly changes the outlook on slabbed autos. What it probably does is further entrenches the collectors who don’t collect signed slabs.

I own two Ruth autos - both slabbed, great cards, and I know a few collectors that would never want it, and I know several collectors that would love for me to sell it. And I’ll be bidding for another one when the right one pops up.

Thats the beauty of the this hobby; everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

Sincerely, fake autograph collector

Why would anyone buy a PSA 8/9 prewar card that has arguably higher risk of being trimmed / altered? Theres risk in every high value card purchase, and this scheme mentions nothing of older guys.

To your question on Ruth, there is a headin home signed Ruth, and multiple exhibits from the 20s. The “rookies” have a tiny population compared to Goudeys and in most cases were not marketed to kids the way his later issues were, so again simple answer… higher supply in the hands of more kids led to higher chance of those cards being brought to Ruth for signing. Not to mention in his rookie era he was not swarmed for autograph requests the way he would be in the 1930s.

The extrapolation of forged Aaron Judge and Kobe Bryant signatures on modern 8x10 photos and framed jerseys then meaning the most valuable, highly scrutinized, low pop signed vintage cards should be questioned is a leap in judgment I do not understand.

The risk in this guys modern autographs were known about by industry autograph experts for years, if you are tracking what those closest to it are saying. And the marks for this ring were largely the unsuspecting mom or dad buying a gift or item for their son or mancave at a (suspicious to hobbyists) discount, that is how he drove high volume sales. Forging one autograph of Babe Ruth on a Goudey card and getting it past the entire industry is highly unlikely to be successful and simply not how we know criminal minds typically work.


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I have collected about everything baseball at one time. I still have them someplace. Years ago I picked up a few fake autos from different infamous forgers in the hobby on the cheap. I used them as cool cheap display pieces.

I sent this literal explanation via PM to someone mere minutes before you wrote yours. Eerie.

The highlighted portions are the most important takeaways for all the alarmists.

I agree very strongly with this statement. The people freaking out and screaming now and for the next several weeks that 'mostly all autographs are fake' or 'if it wasn't signed in front of me, it's probably a fake' are the EXACT same people that were never interested in collecting signed items to begin with and have been complaining about them for decades. If you don't feel comfortable with them, don't collect them.

Are there a lot of modern fake autographs in the hobby on many different surfaces? YES! Are there signed & slabbed vintage fake autographs in the hobby? Yes, probably, but a very tiny fraction compared to all the modern signed jerseys, helmets, balls, photos, etc. If you've studied a signature and done your homework on vintage players' autographs for decades like some of us, it's pretty easy to pick out the bad ones or at least get an uneasy feeling where red flags will instantly come up.

It sounds like the vast majority of the 'Expired Guy's' work was the modern signed sharpie or silver paint pen scribbled crap that I've never been interested in anyways. I'm personally not worried at all.

Fact: Fraud exists in ALL aspects of collectibles (autos, cards, memorabilia), and not just limited to sports stuff.

Fact: Time and again frauds are exposed and nothing changes.

Fact: While I don’t know for sure, logic says/chances are
that some of my cards have been doctored, some of my autos forged, and/or some of my LOAs/slabs are wrong and/or have issues.

Fact: I know all this, yet I continue to collect/invest and have no intention of stopping.

Thems the facts as I see them (but doesn’t change the fact that this sucks balls).

Good riddance to the forger.

Hubris. He never thought he'd get caught.

I think these are some good points, thank you, I stand corrected.

Keep in mind, there was an arrest a few years ago of a criminal who forged many signed T206s — not players like Cobb, Mathewson or Cy Young; instead relatively obscure players. Like everything else in the hobby, signed material is also filled with numerous fakes, whether it’s Sal Bando or Babe Ruth.

It’s a risk no matter what your hobby interest is: graded cards, raw cards, memorabilia, game used, autographs. Where there’s money, there’s people out there trying to rob you of your money.

youre right, no arguing with that. risk and fraud abound wherever there is money. and i recall learning about that one with SGC / JSA often being at the center of slabbing those T206s. way better to find era-specific / period autos or ones with some provenance wherever possible. despite the fraud risk, we try to stay educated, vigilant, and persist in the hunt for our cardboard in this silly + awesome hobby

It makes sense that a skilled forger would avoid producing thousands of fake prewar signed cards with an autopen, given the limited availability of the cards, the high risk, and the certainty of close examination. Identical Ruth or Cobb signatures would quickly raise red flags.

But what happens when AI is used to create a more human-like autopen that slightly varies each signature?

It's called greed, Mr. Fox. They just keep on going and going until it's too late.

The outcome this time was very different, Rhotch.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-02-2015/-YpsdM.gif

Time will tell. I am not talking about the perp (who offed himself), I am talking about the “hobby”, Samosa. Scandal after scandal for many years and the hobby just moves forward, unfazed. This will be no different.

Yep.

I've noticed several members here who come here just to post about how much they are sick of the hobby and everything wrong with it and are leaving. I always wondered what their end goal was; it's a bit like going to a Brazilian steakhouse and having a tantrum because they serve meat.

Can we set up a special B/S/T section for this group to help them get out faster? They can sell at pre-1980 prices — you know, back when it was really a hobby.

The good old days, before fraud and greed, were amazing. You missed them. Everything was pure and wonderful and everyone was great. The good old days. The magical cure all.

Makes me think for some reason about the Twilight Zone episode in the nursing home where the guy runs outside and plays with the small children. The magic of the good old days.

I don't understand why the Henny Penny "The sky is falling!" people even collect. If that was my mentality, there would be no pleasure left and I'd take up something more calming. As much as I want to see as many people involved with something that has been a lifelong passion for me, this side of the hobby isn't for everyone.

It shouldn't be that difficult for collectors with even the slightest bit of seasoning to discern that a dealer selling a ton of top-name modern players on knockoff jerseys is going to be problematic. Logic, people. Tom Brady and Kobe Bryant did not autograph a bunch of cheap memorabilia, of which these dealers have an endless supply. You don't even have to look at the autographs before realizing there's a problem. You just have to look through the glass at the quality of the jerseys. No ridiculous, tacky, over-the-top framing job can hide a lack of quality in manufacturing. It doesn't take very much time to learn the keys to differentiate between an official, quality, licensed jersey and a $20 Asian knockoff.

But sometimes, the problem is a case of "buy the cert, not the autograph". If that's all you're doing, then you're bound to be faced with issues, even if only periodically. There are already far too many collectors, dealers and flippers who don't care about the autograph(s) as long as it supposedly passed a major TPA's inspection. I don't even feel like I'm on the same planet with that type of hobbyist. Self education will always be the greatest key to success in this hobby.

I grew up in a great college town — Bloomington, Indiana. My parents spent the first 55 years of their life there, but now hate it because it just isn’t like it used to be in those good old days. I’ll bet the people before them in horse-and-buggies thought the same thing. Nostalgia is nice, but it can blind you to the fact that right now is the greatest time ever for those in younger age groups. I guess we’re all a little guilty of thinking OUR time was the best.

Personally, right now I’m having more fun collecting than I did at ages 7-16.

Who Am I
 

Here is one perfect example of a modern signed sticker--If it wasn't on a Baseball card the signature would be tough to decipher--

+1



.

I'm confused--what is this of? What's a sticker? Or is this supposed to be a signed card? Looks like old-school initials to me--can those pass as an autograph these days? Asking for a friend.

I'm 79, and I can tell you about many things in my youth that WERE better--more pure fun and joy, simpler and more gratifying, less stressful, etc., but what's the use? Those days are never coming back. If I don't like the music today, I don't listen to it, that's all, same with movies, TV shows, etc. But I love the choices of restaurants, fashions and clothes, services of all kinds, terrific cars, wonderful bourbons and beers, and many other things that ARE better today than they were. As for collecting, what difference does it make if you're a kid collecting in homage to our favorite players and teams, as we did, or because of the thrill of pulling something rare and unique? The kick is the same, and it's great to see the newer generations taking over with their own style. If it was just old guys with money fighting each other for the same musty stuff over and over, that wouldn't be much of a hobby would it, and how long could it last? We can't even imagine what this hobby will look like in a hundred years, but as long as they're having fun with it, what else matters?

Many modern pack-inserted “autographed cards” are really just an “autographed” sticker applied to the card. And yes, the “autographs” often are scribbled initials, or even less in some cases.

I raise a Sunday snifter of Blanton’s and say, “Cheers,” Hank.

I'll drink to that. Cheers, Brent!

I believe the main cause of the modern 'autograph' scribble is the lack of public schools teaching cursive for the past 15+(?) years.

It’s obviously a leap of faith when spending any real money on an autograph, which is why I gravitate toward signed checks, official documents, etc. However, I have a HUGE amount of baseballs signed by world leaders, musicians, actors, criminals, etc. And I’m fine with them because I never paid for any of them — meaning I know the provenance of each one, having gotten them signed myself or receiving them from people who had the obvious ability to get them signed. And these are some valuable balls. Because of the expense, I’d really need some good proof before spending 5-6 figures on an autograph. Paul (T206 Collector) does a great job/massive effort of tracking down the provenance of many signed cards in his collection and website. I’m always amazed that the auction houses selling so many valuable, signed vintage cards each month rely solely on the slab for evidence of authenticity instead of tracking down any provenance. I suppose they don’t have to, due to the card being slabbed. Until that changes, this area of the hobby is just very risky.

Here's Queen Elizabeth and King Charles:
https://staging-jubilee.flickr.com/6...5e11e0d2_z.jpg
https://staging-jubilee.flickr.com/6...6b55e3fb_z.jpg

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Jeff, for a second, until I read your description, I thought that might have been a Charley Manson signed baseball.
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Got him too:

https://staging-jubilee.flickr.com/8...52e1bef1_z.jpg

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Ha! Why does that not surprise me.
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Thanks Jeff! Provenance is super important to establishing and maintaining value. As you note, auction houses often fail to include it even when they actually have it. Unfortunately, very few signed cards come with this level of contemporaneous provenance:

https://live.staticflickr.com/8781/2...82c8b1c3_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/8164/2...db05eb4f_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/8031/2...ec04384a_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...731de00be7.jpg

OMG! What's the story behind this, Jeff? Ordinary TTM request to San Quentin?

I acquired a lot of my stuff in the good old days, and when I look at what I paid versus what it is worth now, all I can say is, good riddance to the good old days.

I never was bitten by the autograph bug, excepting when it was fun to get them myself, and even then, it was on cards, so no doggies in the fight. The only signed ball I have is a dual Ryan-Koufax, and that was a fun story. My cousin was working with Ryan on an Advil campaign and got me a signed, inscribed ball. Many years later, a client was a friend of Koufax from Brooklyn and asked me if I wanted to have him sign something when he was in town. I gave him the Ryan ball and asked that he have Koufax inscribe it the same way. He called me a few days later and said that Koufax refused to sign it; he told me Koufax said: "Why the f*** would I want to be on a ball with Ryan?" I was floored. Of course, he was joking, and presented me with the signed ball shortly after that.

As for the underlying story, I tend to agree with Ryan as to outcome. I do think that provenance is going to play an ever-larger role in value.

I am also dubious of the magnitude claims of the mastermind Lemieux; I have no doubt he filtered lots of bad stuff into the market but I tend to discount the claims of a suicidal fraudster to have perpetrated a fraud on the order of the annual budget of a small city.

Jeff, those royalty signed balls are insane.

Paul-That letter from Snodgrass is incredible. Congratulations on having that great piece.

Jeff-Your collection continues to amaze. It has to be one of the most interesting in the hobby.

I always found it amusing that Manson drew his swastikas backwards. I mean, if you're going to carve your forehead, get it right.

That would not require AI.

I learned it, and my handwriting has never been al that pretty...

My kids also learned it a couple years ago. Literally, like Junior high.
Of course the younger one was typing 70wpm in 5th grade so why even write?

Charlie got a lot of things wrong...

One of the articles mentions that he used a sophisticated "autopen" system - which I assumed meant the signatures varied slightly.

He had a legal visit and the ball was allowed in!

He did it while looking at himself in the mirror. That's why it's backwards!

It's also backwards on your ball.

Reminds me of Kinison's joke about Manson at a parole hearing claiming that the White Album made him commit the murders: you were on acid, Manson, you'd have gotten the same message from The Monkees, you sick f***. "Last Train to Clarkesville...how clear does he have to say it?"

Frankly, I always thought “Daydream Believer” was a dangerous song.