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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>The question I now an answer to is that we received airline ticket (pd by SCDA), transportation to Mastro,a bottle of water at Mastro, they let us use there bathrooms (really nice),lunch, that included a beer, Old Mastro catalogs that wirhed a ton and Dan Knoll scraped me up a Mastro magnifying glass out of his cars and transportation back to the airport. That is the extend of anything of monetary value that they sent our way.<br /><br />There actually waas a reporter on hand that will be writing an article for SCD on the whole meeting, maybe that will satisfying your need for a professional report. Ijust don't understand the response that tell us how we were suppose to handle ourselves the questions to ask when everyone single one of us had a chance to go and handle it our own way. <br /><br />Steve, You seem to have alot of questions and trepidation I am curious as to why you did not volunteer to go, you said you followed the situation closely. How many bats have you sent off to SCDA and PSADNA, why chose 2 different authenticators? What is the history behind your bats that made you believe that they are real? I believe that all of us could come up with scenarios to your story that you have created the story to help authenticate and enhance the sale of your bats. This is just the nature of the beast. It is the type of evidence tied to your bats that will decided the degreee to it's authenticity.<br /><br />All the questions you pose about the whole Heinrich situation are valid and were brought up, there response (please don't ask me what it was)led us all to believe that they were telling the truth. If you don't believe, then I guess you will not be buying that bat if it ever comes up for sale.<br /><br />A note about SCDA, they do not give out a letter of authenticity, they give out a letter of opinion, this was changed after the board thread.<br /><br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Ijust don't understand the response that tell us how we were suppose to handle ourselves the questions to ask when everyone single one of us had a chance to go and handle it our own way." <br /><br />Another simple one: Because some people dismissed this as a worthless PR stunt when offered and continue to do so now. <br /><br />It should be expected that some people are going to dismiss what you write about it. In fact, it actually reads as confirmation that the "demonstration" was every bit the PR stunt suspected. Frankly, the more defensive and indignant you become, the more you sound as if you are determined to espouse SCDA's POV. <br /><br />Honestly, I'm really not clear what you think the value of your trip was?<br /><br />Obviously they gave you a one-sided presentation of the validity of the "streak" bat (and even so, one full of holes that have already been pointed out by other posters) that simply restates their earlier position. Whatever you write about for them on this site is simply another form of conveying or distilling a press release.<br /><br />So, basically until Adam starts questioning SCDA and Mastro during the Planich suit (where they will be asked detailed questions, under oath, from an adverse party) there's really nothing to talk about, and certainly no clear conclusion to reach. Nothing you or I do will be more valuable than what Adam accomplishes during the legal proceeding. That's when SCDA and Mastro won't be in control of the "demonstration." <br /><br />Otherwise, again, in terms of the issue of undisclosed conflict of interest, you are merely repeating SCDA's previously stated arguments on this site (although Jay is now saying he'd prefer to buy from a dealer who authenticates his own material over one who doesn't). You've added no new information or details to that issue (and I've already tried to persuade Troy as to the problems with their policies via e-mail). <br /><br />I mean, what else was there? <br /><br />Your trip, IMO, was a complete waste of time and always was always going to be a complete waste of time. <br /><br />At least you got to visit Mastro's offices though. That would have been worth it for me from a collector's perspective, like going to a behind the scenes tour of the HOF. I'd be willing to put up with whatever nonsense aimed at me if that were on the table (I'd liken it to getting a free ski trip if you sit in on a time share sales pitch for a couple hours). But alas, that was apparently a one-shot deal. <br /><br />Now all I have to look forward to at the National is Ryan Cuban Card Guy trying to beat me up (unless I hand over both my issues of OCM). <br /><br />PS: I'll trade you my Mastro tape measure for your Mastro magnifying glass. <br /><br /> <br /><br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>So Aaron what you are saying is that if you went you would not give yourself a chance to change your opinion and that you would only go would be to see the mastro facility. I am sorry to dissappoint you but the whole Mastro location was not on the schedule until we made plans to fly out there. <br /><br />I have heard many good thinks about the Robert Edwards Auction and glad to hear that someone is using this format.<br /><br />The 3 of us went out there with open minds and formed our own opinions and have reported it to the board. Take it as you may, but that is what went down.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p><FONT SIZE="4">For asking. The answer to your question regarding two authenicators can actually be answered by following your own thread. What auction co. doesn't self authenticate?<br />I honestly wish I'd asked to go. I felt being a member who's little planet has reason to orbit around this world once every couple years I might not have enough frequent flyer miles. As stated a well respect member was encouraged to discouraged it also. I am indifferent regarding that particular bats' history but am fancinated at the correlation between ownership and authenication ratings, the varied efforts and the information and authority bestowed on a single individual. Since you asked. I would have added answers to these questions <br />DiMaggio gives the bat to Henrich. <i>How do you know this Dave Who knows could he have stolen it</i> <i>What did daughter sayWho did she ask Document answers</i><br />Henrich leaves bat at mother's house <i>actually bats were all 5 together what were the other 5 Did his new wife allow bats in home</i> <i>why leave them there Heck he could forget about them by accident Document answers</i> <br />Henrich's daughter finds bat and 5 others<br />She contacts Bushing, who buys the bats. <i>Date this happened</i> <i>Has she told her father she is selling themIs she trying to prevent sharing monies with him or not want to bother or worried he'd say don't or If he is sharp why initially is he kept out of loop</i> <i>what day is she told he will be interviewed </i> <br />Bushing sells DiMaggio bat <i>insiginificant</i><br />bat gets returned. <br />more research done on bat. <i>like any pulltizer prize novel the more time invested the better classic the author shall pen</i><br />Tom Henrich is contacted to find out more about bat. <i>Search the tape for consistancies or variations what does daughter say when you ask to meet him do you tell her that it means a lot more money with his tape who cares if he was coached or cohersed did he know in advance about the money Remember John Lovet Action yeah that's the ticket yea professions are actors </i>.<br />bat is determined to be a Streak bat. <i>great I'm happy for you I do seem to have some questions. Same results, but WAY more fun and more impromptu than your mattinee and these albeit minor issues would provide great insight into industry</i><br />bat is sold at MAstro auction to H&B. <i>to not disclose owner authenicator is solely for one purpose </i><br />I seem to have arrived of sorts. After a few polite updates regarding my items my emails don't make it to Dave's house anymore<br /></FONT>
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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I wish I had a tape. When the meeting got moved to the Mastro offices, they nixed my use of the video camera for security reasons. I didn't think of it until heading back home that I should have left the lense cap on and used it as just an audio recorder. This isn't so bad either since SCDA has said that this gladly make this presentaiton to anyone, at any show they set up at. So you can see it yourself at the National or other shows they are at. Just call them ahead of time to let them know you want to see it. I'm starting to think they should just pack this material with them at every show.<br /><br />Let's get one thing straight about this bat and it's authenticity, Henrich's testimony IS NOT the lynchpin to this whole thing. Everything would stand on it's own without it. The bat could only come from one of 3 possible orders. Henrich got married buring the All-Star break and then left various items at his mother's house, including the bats, in August. This eliminated 2 orders from the possible candidates and cut it down to 6 bats that were shipped on July 1st. There is even more to this, but it's late and I want to get this posted. As we've said, we aren't comfortable with an A10 grade, but everything indicates that this is a Streak bat. I am comfortable with that.<br /><br />Our main reason for going ont his trip was see the proof that this was a Streak bat, and this was proven within reason. We also talked about conflict of interest, etc. You can say we spewing the SCDA party on this, but in almost every field of collectibles, authenticators also sell the items they authenticate. This goes for art, furniture, toys, movie memoriablia, you name it. This is not something that Bushing and the auction houses made up to try and hide things. This is how the auction industry has operated for decades. Do you honestly think that all those experts on the Antiques Roadshow just authenticate items and don't sell things they find and authenticate? <br /><br />Aaron, glad to see that you truly have clue as to what SCDA's new policy is, or most of the rest of this topic. Just lots of preconceived notions and prejudices. First off, if the authenticator is the seller, it is disclosed on the LOA. They have no control over what the auction house will put in the description, but you will be told about it if you are serious about bidding on the it, at least by MastroNet. There is no "30 day" limit to prove anything. It's a lifetime gaurentee. And if you can prove they are wrong, they will not only refund your money, they will also refund you the cost of the other expert. That's called standing behind your product/opinion on an item.<br /><br />And too the person that expected a professional, jouranlistic report, too bad. None of us are professional journalists and we didn't know we were required to go on this trip and report back to the board in this fashion. If this is what you expected, you should have gone yourself, or gotten someone to go taht could have done this for you.<br /><br />We went there to form an opinion, one way or the other. Not to come back and provide an unbiased report. I'm sorry if our conclusions didn't meet with your expectations. At this point, no one really has a right to whine or cry about what happened and the conclusions we came to too. You had the oppourtunity to take this trip. You also had the chance to provide with any questions you would like asked. Very few of you did, and Aaron, you didn't provide any. Why you are now making all this noise is beyond me. You had your chance and blew it. But hey, you get to sit home and say to yourself, yep, those guys were bought off, but if we had come back saying they were blowing smoke up up our arses, you still be sitting at home going yep, we were all right. It's great to sit at home, ignorant of the situation, believing only what you want to believe, and realize that you are right no matter what happens.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p><FONT SIZE="5">Troy R. Kinunen stated<br />"For the record, this offer was extended to some of the original parties involved that questioned the authentication of the Joe DiMaggio bat. My one request was that the entire session be video taped. I am going to request the same for this offer also so all facts will be accureately represented and chronicled."<br /></FONT><br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>From The Fearless NAIVE lips of</b><p><a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1107478964&lp=1108 414835" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=153652&messageid=1107478964&lp=1108 414835</a><br /><br />jay behrens <br />February 6 2005, 7:36 PM <br /><br />"Joe, they've agreed to let me video tape the whole thing. And you can bet that if they try to spin our visit into something that it wasn't, I'll be the first one to speak up about it.<br /><br />It may be a PR spin tour, but none the less, I gotten a bunch of good questions to ask them and the responses will be interesting and telling."<br />*<br />*<br />The above was a response to:<br />Joe P.<br />February 6 2005, 6:19 PM <br />The Good Folks Over At The Stabilized Place Would Like To Know If <br /><br />You would be kind enough to send them your Game Plan & Play Book? <br /><br />Come to my parlor!<br />Said the spider to the fly.<br /><br />Jay, love ya man, but let's be realistic.<br />If you don't have the questions, the ferver and the research background of a Robert Plancich:<br />Why are you going?<br /><br />Some have already said it, and I agree with them.<br />This is just an amateur PR feeble attempt to get a handful together so that they can use their prepared and rehearsed stonewall lines on you -- on their turf.<br /><br />They are not going to admit conflict of interest to anyone on their turf. .... status quo.<br /><br />It would make great SCD print.<br /><br />"Group faced Us, and they couldn't touch Us with a glove."<br /><br />Wrong Turf.<br /><br />Jay amigo, you're not in that league, and it's not a sight seeing tour. <br /><br />They have rehearsed their lines.<br /><br />So Much for Their Agreement to Let You Video Tape the Whole Thing.<br />Did yo really BELIEVE that they would???<br /><br />To make it worse, they used the least expensive vasoline in the market.<br />I hope that The Magnificent Trio smiled prettily for the SCD cameras.<br />The Magnificent Trio, not to be confused with "The Three Stooges".<br />They were creatively innovative.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>Jay, sorry but I'm 100% right about the return policy. Check page 5 of the current Mastro Classic Collector auction catalog. It's listed under SCD's profile in the "A Word About Authenticity" section. <br /><br />You have 30 days from receipt to have the item examined by a "recognized third-party" who presents "verifiable informationnthat the item was not represented properly or accurately." <br /><br />Again, I appreciate your good intentions, but the fact is you simply served a PR purpose for SCDA and Mastro. <br /><br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"It would make great SCD print." <br /><br />This is another interesting point. <br /><br />Jay, Dan or Lee: Did any of you catch the name of the outfit the reporter who accompanied you writes for? <br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />What research and backgraound do YOU know that Robert Plantich has or has taken? Do you know him personally done research with him. Mr. Plantich was offered this same deal to show the eveidence when he first brought up the question to them and he turned it down. My question is why wouldn't you want the eveidence of an authenticator if you as a non-authenticator are questioning it's authenticity.<br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />You seem to be doing the exacthings you accuse these guys of, I asked specific questions about the bats you are sending and you send a general answer why is this? Why don't you post and scan your bats, post why you believe the bats are what you say they are and the board members tell you if they think they are legit?<br /><br />Not an attack Steve but whatis your background? It don't think I have ever encountered you on the board.<br /><br />Lee<br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Guys, thanks for the reporting on the trip. I know you were all skeptical going in so I can appreciate your feelings now. That being said, an authenticator should not be selling his own crap without disclosing his relationship to the item. End of story--no matter how many times Troy sends me personal invective via email.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"So Aaron what you are saying is that if you went you would not give yourself a chance to change your opinion and that you would only go would be to see the mastro facility. I am sorry to dissappoint you but the whole Mastro location was not on the schedule until we made plans to fly out there." <br /><br />Well, I would substitute "unwilling to allow myself to be manipulated" for "not give yourself a chance to change my mind", but otherwise yeah, that's about it. <br /><br />Now, had I known a tour of Mastro's facility been on the table, I might have been willing to shirk my professional responsibilities and burn a vacation day and allow myself to serve another person's agenda, but as it was originally presented, the answer was no, I was not willing to serve another person's agenda under those circumstances. (For the tour, I would have chalked it up to "If you are going to use me, I'm going to use you.") <br /><br />As far as my opinion, I haven't really offered one on the validity of the streak bat. The only thing about the sale(s) that I've spoken out about are the fact that Bushing owned the bat, and if he disclosed this to the eventual purchaser. Otherwise, I am content (as I have said repeatedly) to let the matter be resolved in a neutral forum by those who are much more educated on the subject than me during the Planich litigation. <br /><br />The only other thing that was really an issue was undisclosed conflict of interest, to which no new information was added during your trip. And, yes, I can say with certainty that I would not have changed my mind and approved of it, even if given a free lunch and tour of MastroNet (although I would have been very cordial during the visit!).<br /><br /> <br />
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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>I agree with that fact that they should not sell an item they sold without disclosure of the fact. It seems alot of that is up to the auction houses from my understanding. We did not agree on everything especially that the bat should receive an A10, in my eyes at least an A9.<br /><br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Naive and Sleepless in Iola</b><p>You make me feel like an expert, and I know absolutely nothing about bats, gloves and the likes.<br /><br />The Trio's decision to go, bewildered many of the<br />posters.<br />Your qualifications were nil to the task required.<br /><br />You were the PERFECT pawns for the SCDA group.<br />They could not have hoped for a better sellection.<br /><br />The outcome to this charade was as predictable as Night following Day.<br /><br />Predictable and foreseen by most, except the Gentlemen from Iola.<br /><br />Tell us Lee, who is this Burdick fellow, and what kind of reseach did he do?
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Joe, thank you for coming down from your high and mighty place. I knew you were sitting next to Aaron, in your comfortable win-win loungers. You say I am unqualified? Do you know what my experience is with game used bats? I'll let you answer this and prove your ignorance on this one.<br /><br />Aaron, you crack me up. You talk about how easily were manipulated and claiming that nothing could manipulate you. Look at yourself, you are the one that is falling all over himself just trying to get into the MAstro offices. Of the 4 of us, who do you think would be the most easily manipulated? It would be you becuase you would be the one bedazzled and stunned like a deer looking into the headlights. <br /><br />Back to the conflict of interest, H&B did not find out that Bushing owned and authenticated the bat after the fact. All the bidders were made aware of this. Mastro even offered to contact the bidders so they could confirn this with us. And I can already see your answer, the bidders are jsut more lackeys doing the what Mastro wants them to. And did you miss the part where I mentioned this an industry wide practice, not relagated soley to sports memorabilia? Does this make it right and mean we have to agree with it? No, but the people that bid in these auctions on a regualr basis are well aware of it.<br /><br />Enough of the boys in the win-win barcaloungers. Time to hit the ignore button on them until they say something useful.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Sweet now you say that Robert Plantich and Burdick are in the same league give me a break.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>For what it's worth, I don't think it appropriate to malign those that went on the trip as rubes that were dazzled by the bright lights of Chicago. These guys are obviously bright, learned collectors who went there with a chip on their collective shoulder. It would be simplisitic and obnoxious to suggest otherwise. As for H & B not knowing that Bushing owned the item, that may also be. I'm not sure I believe it but of course I could be wrong. One thing I know that I am correct about is that Bushing knew that he owned the item that he was authenticating. And for me, that makes Bushing an untrustworthy snake oil salesman who lied by omission.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Aaron, you crack me up. You talk about how easily were manipulated and claiming that nothing could manipulate you. Look at yourself, you are the one that is falling all over himself just trying to get into the MAstro offices. Of the 4 of us, who do you think would be the most easily manipulated? It would be you becuase you would be the one bedazzled and stunned like a deer looking into the headlights." <br /><br />Again, another easy one. I'm not trying to even give the impression of SCDA's credibility if I went on a tour of the Mastro facility. I wouldn't come back here and post about how they proved the validity of the Planich bat and how conflict of interest isn't such a bad thing. <br /><br />I'd just go on my tour, have fun and that's it. That's why I even volunteered to sign an NDA: Because I have no intention of spewing SCDA or Mastro's propaganda (on this site or anywhere). I would just using this whole situation as a pretense to get a free tour of a personal collecting heaven. <br /><br />You guys on the other hand, are acting like trained seals, doing their PR for them, just as they hoped. <br /><br />That's why I refuse to sit through their demonstration unless it's at Mastro headquarters. Otherwise, why bother to sit through their spiel? To learn something "unbiased" so I can come back here and do their work for them? Come on, ego aside, can't you see how badly you've been used? <br /><br />Troy told me yesterday that Mastro and SCDA would only be at the National and a visit to MastroNet during the National was impossible, so no "demonstration" for me. Simple.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings)</b><p>don't malign those that went. You can discount or completely disagree with their take, but allow them to have one. If you believe you pre-ordained what would happen and/or had no intention of giving the report any credibility, regardless who issued it, then make your point to that effect once and move on.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Rob L</b><p>Aaron, since it seems that you have no interest in seeing the evidence to dispute what these guys are saying, why bash them? They told us they were going, we were asked to give them any questions that we had (some asked)and they came back and reported what they saw and felt. <br /><br />Your take that you won't go and listen to the evidence because you can't get a tour of the Mastro facility is laughable. You are going to the National and won't take 15 minutes to hear there spiel there. I don't get it. I guess my feeble brain is about to explode.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>This is not meant as a swipe against anyone one particular, but many people in the hobby and elsewhere like to pick a side first and worry about the facts second ... Or not worry about the facts at all.<br /><br />The other thing I once learned from a thread on a subject I am knowledgeable about (authenticity of photographs), having knowledge about the subject isn't a requirement for some to argue on a chat board.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Your take that you won't go and listen to the evidence because you can't get a tour of the Mastro facility is laughable. You are going to the National and won't take 15 minutes to hear there spiel there. I don't get it. I guess my feeble brain is about to explode." <br /><br />As I've explained earlier in this thread, I think the issue of the streak bat is best left up to the Planich litigation to decide on. I don't know if Bushing's authentication was accurate or not, and I don't believe that hearing a biased, one-sided orchestrated presentation will help me make up my mind. <br /><br />The Planich litigation, OTOH, will offer depositions and testimony under oath, with questions coming from informed adverse counsel. Same goes for the evidentiary exhibits which will be forcefully obtained (and not subject to SCDA's picking and choosing) and critically examined. <br /><br />Once those facts are brought to light, then I think we (including Jay, Lee and dan) can all make more informed decisions about the streak bat (and Bushing's overall authentication techniques). <br /><br />The only other matter is the undisclosed conflict of interest issue. I have exchanged posts here with Troy, as well as private e-mail exchanges on the topic. He has his opinion on things, and I have mine. I have offered suggestions as to what I think will satisfy ethical obligations as well as their own financial concerns. Whether they choose to incorporate those suggestions are up to them. <br /><br />Otherwise, there's no more point in him trying to persuade me of anything or vice versa. Our minds are made up. <br /><br />So, what's left to say to them or them to me?
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Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>PS: Of course, I'll stop "bashing" Lee, Dan and Jay. You all seem like good guys with good intentions. Whatever the outcome, we are all (I think) appreciative of you taking your personal time and trying to enhance our knowledge of the subject. Seriously.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Look, I emailed Lee before he went...and believe me the guy was foaming at the mouth as I was about this issue. These guys are passionate about the hobby/obsession we have and are also possessive and protective over it. So, I'm willing to certainly give their opinions some serious weight (unless we can prove they actually visited the Mastro office in Stepford, Ct.).
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Aaron, I didn't think you were ill-intentioned and I tend to agree with your take on the bat--and 100 percent agree that Bushing is a crock re the conflict issue. I just think that we are all maddogs when it comes to this stuff and we should use our collective energies as, well, collective energy.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>It Must Be the Iola Water</b><p>Jay:<br /><br />"Joe, thank you for coming down from your high and mighty place. I knew you were sitting next to Aaron, in your comfortable win-win loungers. You say I am unqualified? Do you know what my experience is with game used bats? I'll let you answer this and prove your ignorance on this one."<br />*<br />*<br />No Jay, I really don't know your used bats qualifications.<br />Here's your chance to tell the whole board about them.<br />What are they?<br />-----------------------------------<br /><br />Lee Behrin;<br /><br />"Sweet now you say that Robert Plantich and Burdick are in the same league give me a break."<br />*<br />*<br />Also predictably, it went over Lee's head.<br />Lee, aren't you the avid tobacco collector that just a few months ago found out about the Burdick collection, and Jefferson Burdick?<br /><br />It's gotta be the water. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />
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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't really feel I have to explain why I went, but I will in the interest of the board (or the bored). When Robert Plancich first came to the board and reported on this bat it sparked an interest in me and I decided to undertake some research on the matter. I have a fairly extensive baseball library and came up with some facts on the streak and DiMaggio that I sent to Robert. He was very appreciative and I have had discourse with him off of this board regarding this bat. Some of the research I did was new to Robert and some of my questions at the meeting were based on this research. I came away from the meeting not 100% convinced of this being a streak bat, but I think that the odds are very favorable that this IS bat number 4. I discussed this with Robert this morning on the phone and this story is not over. I look forward to this going through litigation as I think Aaron is correct that the only appropriate forum for this to be settled is in a court of law. So you could say that I went for strictly selfish reasons to satisfy my curiosity on the matter, but I also hope to help this hobby down a more straight forward path.<br /><br />Dan
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Aaron, you berate us for being shills for SCDA and Mastro, yet you are no better. You bought Robert Plnaich's party line, hook line and sinker and no one had a clue who he really is or what is cedentials are. Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that follows him? <br /><br />Planich was a nobody before he posted here, and even I bought into everything he said. Now that I have seen both sides of the story, I have opinion of the bat based firmly on facts and data. I cannot tell you what to believe, you ahve make that decision yourself, but it boils down to believing someone who has no history and no background or taking the word of 3 collectors, one of which (myself) has experience with buying and selling game used bats.<br /><br />You are as much a shill for Planich as you think we are shills for SCDA and Mastro.<br /><br />You also state you want to wait for the unbaised court trial to settle whether the bat is legit or not. What color is the sky where you are from? There is no such thing as an unbiased trial. Each side is presenting biased information. Do you think OJ would have gotten off if his case was truly unbiased?<br /><br />Joe, here's my bat credentials: I learned everything I know a lot I've forgotten from Mike Montbriand. On the way to the MAstro offices, Troy asked if any of had experience with game used bats. I mentioned this to him, and also to Bushing when we got to the offices. If there intent was to bamboozle us, which I doubt, they knew up front that I learned about bats from the best and they even acknowledged that. So I was not going to be easily convinced about anything with the knowledge I have.<br /><br />At this point, I stepping away from the thread unless there are some relavent questioned asked by people other than Joe or Aaron.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
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Posted By: <b>PASJD</b><p>There are two aspects of this story that continue to cause me some doubts, although there may well be good answers. First, I really cannot understand why Mr. Bushing would have "flipped" the bat so quickly the first time if he was aware based on the relevant bat records that there was a reasonable chance the bat was a "streak" bat. Why only do the research when the bat fortuitously was returned. Second, I really cannot understand why Mr. Henrich, knowing all those years that he had left a "streak" bat at his mother's or whoever's house, would not have made an effort to retrieve it and capitalize on the memorabilia craze which surely he was aware of.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Aaron</b><p>"Aaron, you berate us for being shills for SCDA and Mastro, yet you are no better. You bought Robert Plnaich's party line, hook line and sinker and no one had a clue who he really is or what is cedentials are. Who is the bigger fool? The fool, or the fool that follows him?" <br /><br />Jay, no offense, but what are you talking about? <br /><br />I already posted (several times) that I don't know if Planich's claims about the streak bat are right or wrong and that I think it's best for the matter to be handled in court where neither party has an advantage and a neutral party presides. <br /><br />Actually, I think Planich sounds like an obsessive crank, and if I were Bushing I probably would have ignored his e-mails, too. But that doesn't make him right or wrong.<br /><br />I think your trip was a waste of time because it was a biased one-sided unchallenged presentation--a lame PR stunt. It goes without saying, I would have dismissed a similar "demontsration" from Planich. <br /><br />But Plnich did bring to light the subject of undisclosed conflict of interest which has turned out to be correct. For that I'm grateful, and hopefully it will lead to some change in the hobby. <br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Clarity In Iola</b><p>"I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks."<br />*<br />*<br />The clarity is possibly due to the fact that they're not his thoughts or words.<br /><br />I say more to the signature, and less to his incoherent thought patterns.<br />-------------<br />sabrjay Bahren:<br /><br />"Joe, here's my bat credentials: I learned everything I know a lot I've forgotten from Mike Montbriand. On the way to the MAstro offices, Troy asked if any of had experience with game used bats. I mentioned this to him, and also to Bushing when we got to the offices. If there intent was to bamboozle us, which I doubt, they knew up front that I learned about bats from the best and they even acknowledged that. So I was not going to be easily convinced about anything with the knowledge I have."<br />*<br />*<br />Wow, I'm impressed.<br />I've learned everything that I need to know about the business world by watching Donald Trumps "Apprentice."<br /><br />Innocent brilliant and worldly child.<br />If I wanted to win a Jay type over, I would do exactly what they did.<br />Troy, Bushing, and the SCDA crew played their cards well.<br /><br />Their mission:<br />1. Make the boys feel welcomed at the O.K.Corral.<br />2. Pump up their ego's, and tell them how intellegent they are.<br />3. Win them over, win them over.<br />4. Let them talk about anything, we already have their playbook and game plan from their previous thread.<br />5. Stay away from the Conflict of Interest thing.<br />6. Not to worry, we'll take care of Jay's video recording illusions.<br />7. Treat our well meaning pawns with respect - buy them a soda.<br />8. Always remember, they come here to bury Caesar, and not to praise him.<br />9. Our mission here at the O.K. Corral, is to turn that around.<br />10. Oh yes, one more thing, watch out for this Dan Bretta guy -- he has a legitimate OPEN mind, as for the other two -- just flatter them.<br /><br />11. Of utmost importance -- Don't forget to <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> for the SCD pictures.<br /><br />True, the brothers Bayrin sound alike, but I must consider that it might not be the Iola water. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>mcavoy</b><p>What were the other bats Bushing bought from the Heinrich family? What are the dates estimated for those bats?
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>Dave made no mention to what the other bats were. But I believe he said there were 6 very dirty bats in the lot.<br /><br />Lee
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>they would have all been pre-Spetember 1941 since Henrich moved out in August.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>These are the other bats according to Troy fomr SCDA:<br /><br />Other bats were Tommy Henrich block letter rookie bat, 2 Tommy Henrich signature model 35 1/2 stamped on knob, Babe Herman store model bat, Red Ruffing, and one other major league bat that Dave couldn't remember, common major league stars. All pre 1941. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Eric</b><p>This is a comment I just posted over on the game used forum board, but I'd like to throw it out to you folks as well.<br /><br />Jay-<br />Thanks for your report.<br /><br />I am confused by something you mentioned. You wrote, <br /><br />"As to Ichiro bat, Bushing said this came from agent of Ichiro and apprently were mislead about the bat."<br /><br />I think I need more explanation on this. I'm sorry, but it's not being too harsh by saying if an authenticator is to sign a letter on something they have to do their own homework before issuing that letter. Even if somehing comes directly from a player, it is the authenticator's obligation to examine it and compare to archival photos. We have seen instances where players ahve sold the same event used item TWICE. So a good source may not always be a good source. If it's what it sounds like, SCDA too Ichiro's agent's word on the bat and issued a letter? Please clarify<br /><br />Thanks<br />Eric<br />moderator Game Used Forum<br /><a href="http://www.network54.com/Index/33448" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.network54.com/Index/33448</a>
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>It sure seemed a sore subject with them when I brought it up. I don't think they wanted to talk about it, but it sounds like they got hoodwinked by Ichiro's agent. I then asked them how they could give an A-10 to a bat on word alone and they said they didn't even have the A1-A10 scale when that happened. I believe it was reported in this forum that they had given that bat an A-10.<br /><br />Other than the DiMaggio bat, we discussed briefly the Cobb Decal bat, Seaver Glove, and The Ichiro bat. The only one they copped to making a mistake on was the Ichiro bat. I did ask questions about the Ichiro and Cobb bat, but I didn't feel like I knew enough about those items to delve into anything deeper than we did, and I was mainly interested in the DiMaggio bat.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In the authentication of rare photographs, provenance is considered evidence (ala, it came from a magazine's editor, from the estate, etc), often imporant evidence. But it is only one piece in the authentication puzzle, along with physical examination of the photo, etc. It is also known that not all 'provenance' is reliable or sometimes the reliable provenance is used to make hasty conclusions (Someone being given a Mike Schimdt photo from Mike Schmidt and incorrectly assuming the photo is an original. Schmidt can own reprints of himself just like anyone else). For every forged Babe Ruth baseball there is a made up story where it came from. In some cases, physical examination of a photo will prove the provenance bogus. In many cases, physical examination of the photo and the reliable provenance will support each other-- which is the best.<br /><br />There was an interesting case where on eBay where the style of photo itself strongly supported the seller's big claim of famous ownership. There was an 1880s Cincinnati Reds team photo that the seller claimed actually personally belonged to star pitcher Tony Mullane. The seller was no expert on photos, and may have admited as such in the sale description. The photo was an unusually large Joseph Hall cabinet-style photo of the Reds. The photo was like 3 times bigger than the regular cabinets. Back in the old days, these large size photos were difficult and expensive to make. They were ordinarilly made only for VIPs, like the team manager or star players or to be displayed in the team clubhouse or town hall. In short, the mere size of the photo was good evidence that the photo did indeed belong to Mullane.<br /><br />A common worry of collectors of expensive modern photos by famous photographers like Phillipe Halsman or Annie Lebovitz is whether or not the photo is legitimate. Photos not made by or with the authorization of the copyrights owner (photographer, magazine that hired the photograher, etc)are worthless and are, infact, often illegal to sell. Besides, a collector doesn't want to spend $1,000 on David Baily photo that someone eBay seller made 10,000 copies of in his Milwaukee basement. Provenance will help support the legitimacy or 'officialness' of the photo. If a collector knows the photo came from a magazine editor or the photographer's estate or the auction of a newspaper's archives, he can be confident that the photo is legitimate. Stamping on a photo also helps prove the legitmacy. The stamp or paper tag of the photographer, news service or Sports Illustrated shows that the photo was made with propor authorization, and the collector should feel comfortable buying.<br /><br />As far as the Ichiro bat goes, I think the folks who examined the bat and MastroNet made a dumb error, but we all make dumb errors and it's no longer a big deal for me.<br />
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>The DiMaggio bat has a lot going for it.<br />1. It can be only 1 of 22 bats made by H&B.<br />2. It shows game use and was repaired. I'm not sure it would have been worth Henrich's time to get repaired if it were not a "special" bat.<br />3. You have the word of Henrich that it was a streak bat.<br />4. Finding the bat in Henrich's mother's house makes the probability that he put it there before he got married believable. It also makes it more believable that this bat came from the 7-1-41 bat order since Henrich got married in July of 41 and moved out of his mother's house at that time.<br /><br />In order for you to say it is not a streak bat you have to be prepared to call Tommy Henrich a liar. I am not prepared to do that.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Judge Dred</b><p>The Tommy H connection is interesting. If I recall there was a lot of interest in having the "chosen people" watch the entire taped interview to see if TH was being "lead" or "coached" into a response. Just because the entire tape wasn't presented doesn't mean that there was any impropriety it just means that it wasn't shown. If the tape is shown sometime in the future and it doesn't show TH being "lead" or "coached" then the tape would be called suspicious because it would lead some people to believe that the tape had been edited. <br /><br />This incident will never be free of suspicion unless the bat has some very distinguishing characteristics that show up on a photograph of Joe D holding this exact bat during the streak. Even then the picture would only show Joe D holding the bat and not using it during the streak.... <br /><br />I'm sure everyone has figured this out already... an A10 rating is out the door.
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Krystal Klear</b><p>mcavoy<br />(Login m-mac) other bats February 25 2005, 11:26 AM <br /><br />What were the other bats Bushing bought from the Heinrich family? What are the dates estimated for those bats?<br />**********************<br /><br />Lee Behrens <br />(Login bowlingshoeguy) Re: The SCDA trip February 25 2005, 12:14 PM <br /><br />Dave made no mention to what the other bats were. But I believe he said there were 6 very dirty bats in the lot.<br /><br />Lee<br />**********************<br /><br />jay behrens <br />(Login sabrjay) Re: The SCDA trip February 25 2005, 12:17 PM <br /><br />they would have all been pre-Spetember 1941 since Henrich moved out in August.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.<br />**********************<br /><br />jay behrens <br />(Login sabrjay) Re: The SCDA trip February 25 2005, 4:11 PM<br /><br />These are the other bats according to Troy fomr SCDA:<br /><br />Other bats were Tommy Henrich block letter rookie bat, 2 Tommy Henrich signature model 35 1/2 stamped on knob, Babe Herman store model bat, Red Ruffing, and one other major league bat that Dave couldn't remember, common major league stars. All pre 1941. <br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.<br />*********************<br />*<br />*<br />*<br />Possible clarification for the above could be:<br /><br />1. Lee was in another room? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />2. Troy is reading this, and he's helping out with some, but not all of the blanks. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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The SCDA trip
Posted By: <b>Todd (nolemmings0</b><p>Never mind
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