I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Jay I feel your frustration. Been there many times. But i will continue to submit as overall i am very pleased. Jim Crandell bring's up a point that I agree with. There is not alot of pre-war ungraded out there that would grade 8 or higher. Many collectors of ungraded cards still grade their cards with old grading standards. Meaning that a card with an unseen surface wrinkle that appears mint is.This is not to say that graded or ungraded collecting is better as everyone has there own choices. In todays market I would buy graded over ungraded for investment or resale,but i do also have ungraded cards in my collection. Always remember the hardest cards to grade are the one's you own!

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Those of you taht think there are not alot of high grade, ungraded cards out there obviously haven't been in the hobby that long. All you have to do is look at the Nagy collection. His is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to long time collections of long time collectors, most of which don't have their cards graded. It will probably be 25 years or more before you can get a true sense of what is truely rare in high grade and what isn't because these colelctions will remain ungraded until the person leaves the hobby or passes away.<br /><br />As to old school grading, there is a huge difference between a micro flaw that can only be seen under magnification and a crease that breaks the surface of the card. These should not be treated the same.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>I have been in the hobby for 25 years and have seen a lot. <br /><br />We will see how these raw nrmt-mt collections grade out. My guess for truly vintage is a lot of 7s and less...and if raw cards were purchased from late 80s to late 90s, a fair amount of altered cards as well.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>You might be surprised whats out there in peoples collections.<br /><br />I have been collecting off and on for 30 years and just returned to the hobby after a long hiatus in the past year or so.<br /><br />I'll give you my <A HREF="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/index.asp?action=3&setcategory=1&setid=420&usetid= 1368">E-98 set</A> which I just recently had graded as an example of whats still out there in peoples collections.<br /><br />Yes, these cards are slabbed now but there are many others who do not and will not spend their money on a grading service and I can understand their viewpoint.<br /><br />I ended up making a personal decision to have them graded not because I cared so much about the grades or increasing the possible sale value but because I felt the cards look good in the holders and would be better preserved in the slabs as opposed to top loaders or binder pages which I previously had them stored in.<br /><br />I can't help but think that are plenty of other collectors out there with collections just as nice or nicer than mine. They just haven't come out of the woodwork yet and/or have no reason to get their cards graded.<br /><br />Scott

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Scott:<br /><br />That is a PHENOMENAL E-98 set. Good stuff - thanks for sharing; I was literally drooling over some of those scans. I have never seen such a nice grouping of E98s.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I am not familiar with the set but I am sure yours is a terrific set.<br /><br />When I talk about high-grade and pops though I am talking about psa 8 or better or sgc 88 or better. I am also talking about mainstream sets.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>There are a few SCG 88s and above in the set I just posted as an example.<br /><br />I just posted it as an illustration that there are definitely still vintage cards out there in near mint condition which have not been slabbed (as I only recently had these done). <br /><br />As far as it being mainstream, you'll have to tell me what sets qualify. I know E-98 is a pretty popular set among those of us that collect candy/caramel cards.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Thanks for sharing. I would consider cards such as this "high grade" <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><img src="http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images/cards/Item_420_47909_311.jpg">

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jim;<br /><br />If there are tough cards like E98 Vaughn’s in mint 9’s out there as Scott just showed us (lucky dog), why do you find it so hard to believe that there aren’t hundreds of 1950’s (or whatever mainstream) cards in the same perspective grade stashed away in collections that have yet to be or never will be graded?<br />

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...there is no way in hell I would buy that card unslabbed. I fully admit it does not look trimmed or altered in any way. SGC was obviously right on this one. But unslabbed, I would be very very very very nervous about that.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>I daresay that some of its borders look larger than some other caramel cards I sometimes see graded by an across-the-street competitor. Refreshing!

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>John,<br /><br />Primarily it is the slow creep upward in pops of cards 8 or better. I think this will continue. Also I think that for the most popular pre-war sets as defined by number of graded cards 8 and better, that enough cards have been graded that for the most part cards that are low pop now will be low pop in the future.<br /><br />Jim

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>From what I can tell, in the past 12 month period, the 33 & 34 Goudey's, the PSA 8 pop has increased by about 0.5 per card. That's a healthy rate in my opinion. High enough that there will be high quality cards out for sale all the time...but low enough that it is still very difficult to find.<br /><br />At that rate, after 10 years, the PSA 8 pops will increase by 5 for every card. Still very tough to get, still a rare condition...but attainable for new collectors. All good to me.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Scott M, That is an incredible set of E98 cards. I don't think anyone is going to be able to come close to matching those grades.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I will just echo my admiration for scotts e98s - I seem to remember looking at those cards on your website before they were graded (unless someone else has an all green e98 set) and thinking it was an amazing collection of e98s.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>Scott amazing set glad to see it surrounded by black borders.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Julie</b><p>(because they appear to be just what I want), but always pop them out...so I never buy real high grades--it would be a waste of money!<br /><br />I've been told that some of my raw cards would grade high--I'm sure a lot would not, but if you want to see a smaller, lesser collection of ungraded cards, check out my website at www.julievognar.com<br /><br />Ben, who had always said he didn't give 2 hoots about graded cards, insisted on keeping two the board sent him IN THEIR GRADED HOLDERS. And I'm sure he has no intension of trading either (it's also very risky to send cards to Canada in graded holders, but he really wanted them that way!) a 40 and an 80...I posted the T207 Almeida recently.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>i agree with T206 collector that a large number of PSA 8 T206s are altered in one way or another. Anyone care to guess what pecentage of PSA 8 pre war cards would receive the same grade if cracked out and resubmitted back to PSA ? Will the hobby ever see an extensive study like this performed.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>As alluded to above, I sent in 40 PSA graded T206 cards to SGC for crossover treatment. Most of these were 4's, 5's and 6's and a little over half were Hall of Famers. Of the 40, they would not grade 10 as same grade or higher, and they would not grade 1 as evidence of trimming. That card was a PSA 5. Was it really trimmed? Who knows. PSA said no, SGC said yes. But 1 out of 40 isn't too bad. It's just not great, either.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Mosley</b><p>Thanks Josh and others for the compliments on the set (yes thats the same ungraded set you saw on my website).<br /><br />Posting it was just an attempt to show that there is still likely a fair amount of high grade vintage material out there yet to be graded or in the hands of collectors that would NEVER have it graded period.<br /><br />Scott

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Scott, thanks for posting that link, awesome cards!<br />

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>T206 - at least you didn't try sending GAI cards for crossover to PSA - where 9 out of 10 will come back Evidence of Trimming.<br /><br />Yea, I know, it's a PSA thing (bad PSA!), still frustrating though.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>In the neighborhood in which I grew up, there was a man who collected Topps sets from packs from every year beginning in 1952. Unlike most kids, he would buy the packs, take the cards right out of the packs, put them in numerical order right in a box, and never look at them again. He kept his doubles, and those are the cards he played with.<br /><br />Really.<br /><br />So he had a complete run of gorgeous sets from every year Topps produced. As an adult, he kept them in what looked like a card catalog. His goal was to pass them along to his son someday. <br /><br />The cards were razor sharp. Granted, he probably didn't pay attention to centering, since that's a relatively recent phenomenon, but I'd be willing to bet that there are a ton of high-grade cards in there, and I'm reasonably confident that those cards are still safely tucked away, out of the clutches of the hobby.<br /><br />If there is one person like my old neighbor out of every 50,000 people in this country (and I think that's reasonable to assume), then there are something like five thousand high-grade, raw collections out there.<br /><br />-Al

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>dan mckee</b><p>There are plenty of raw high grade cards out there, my run of bowman topps and playball were assembled in the 1970s and I have had about a dozen cards slabbed, sold to FISH, and replaced by raw, nice EX cards. Damn that is easy money! Thanks Fish.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Richard Masson</b><p>If you are estimating the number of adults who assembled Topps sets from packs in the 1950s, the number is far less than one in 50,000. In the old days, these people were a rare breed.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>He was a KID in the 1950s when he started.<br /><br />Maybe 1 in 50,000 is still a steep number for kids who bought baseball cards in the 1950s and didn't flip them, trade them, put them in their pockets, or install them on their bicycles, but you get my point. <br /><br />Which is, of course, that I am of the opinion that there are still plenty of high-grade, raw collections that have yet to be unearthed.<br /><br />-Al

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There may not have been that ratio, but there were a number of collectors in the 50s that were putting away boxes and even cases of cards. I've personally seen a collection, more like left over store stock, of unopened boxes of Topps and Bowman baseball and football from 1951 to 1968. This was someone who wasn't collector and know of long time collectors that stashed away boxes from the 50s.<br /><br />One of the first things I was told when I was workig on my 55 Topps set and was impressed by high grade 50s cards, to not be impressed by high grade 50s cards because there were plenty out. Instead, I should be impressed by high grade cards that were issued before WW2.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>What is true for Topps is also true for Goudey and Playball. Of course somewhat more Topps have survived because they are 20 years newer, but cards were put away in top condition for these other sets, and are still away. Imho.<br /><br /><br />1 in 50,000 seems like a reasonable number for kids with sufficient budget to be able to afford to collect from packs and only flip duplicates. It never occured to any of us - but we generated most of our own budget. The "only flip duplicates" solely applied near the end of the season, when our number of cards supported that approach. To do that right from the beginning, requires a good allowance.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>All you have to know about the relative scarcity of these cards was on display at the National. I'd say about 50% of the dealers there had significant displays of high grade 1950s-1960s cards. As far as I am concerned, the market for near mint to mint (8 and up) post-war cards is driven by underendowed set registry geeks and hype-happy auctioneers. It is not a scarcity driven market but is instead a demand driven one. The proof is in what happens with mid-grade 1950s-1960s cards; they sit and rot unless deeply discounted. Contrast that with pre-war cards, where virtually everything flies off the table and we are seriously debating the merits and values of altered, trimmed, recolored and/or just plain wrecked vintage cards.

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Warshawlaw,<br /><br />You are correct with your observations about pre-war cards but if you think its easy to put together high-grade sets in the early Bowman and Topps sets, it isn't. Also many dealers have pointed out to me off-condition cards from the 50s have been the most rapidly appreciating segment of the postwar market as of late.<br />I would put the dividing line between hard to attain and plentiful in high grade as 1959.<br /><br />Jim

I give up on grading
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>purchasing high grade stuff of major stars from the 1960s if I can find it at a reasonable discount to market on the theory that the money will trend in that direction as people are priced out of the other stuff?