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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Cards which are issued after a player's career has ended are all grouped together (well, in my mind, anyway). I do not differentiate between those issued 5, 10, 25 yrs., etc. after his career. Heck, they usually all portray a picture of an active player.<br /><br />The hobby though does differentiate these issuances, as evidenced by prices associated with numerous post career examples of Ruth, Jackson and others.<br /><br />This status makes as much sense to me as false rookie (FROOKIE) cards do. I wonder if this fascination has staying power.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Hal whatever your intent, a statement to the effect that all the money I spend on cards is just play money is going to be construed as a statement about your personal financial situation, and surely you must see that. I for one am more interested in your opinions on the merits of the Gibson card.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>BlackSoxFan</b><p>THANK YOU GIL ...<br /><br />Interesting thought. This card has for me is the same as the Playball Jackson card. Many collectors think of that card when they think of a jackson baseball card. It came out 20 years after he stopped playing. I would have no problem with the Gibson card running between 500-3000 for most examples (as the jackson does) and getting up into the 20k range for the highest known example.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Black Sox Fan<br /><br />- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br /><a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a><br /><a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>One of my favorite quotes about the stock market I believe came from Sam Walton when asked what it felt like to lose a $1 billion in one day. He told the reporter to ask him that question when he lit a billion dollars in cash on fire.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>All the money I spend on cards is just play money. <br /><br />I do not see the above statement as testimony regarding my net worth, nor my disposable income.<br /><br />IMHO Hal is being criticized for being open regarding his collection, acquisitions, ponderances, policies, strategies, and more. And in my opinion, we are all lucky that so many of the members of this Board can afford so many different nice cards, and that they openly share them with us. Hal is not alone in this. There are numerous participants here who acquire more value in cards within a month than I obtain in a year.<br /><br />But that is ok too: because no one really cares whether I do not have much money, or whether I choose to spend it on other things. Unlax, enjoy, it is good.<br /><br />It is only cards.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Too bad it was Jim Gilliam <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />But seriously, I prefer the PC to the Toleteros for two reasons: (1) it was made, issued, whatever, during Gibson's career and (2) it is real photo. I just think it looks nicer. I also think Hal has a great card (sticker, whatever) in the Toleteros Gibson and if he is happy with it, WTF, leave him alone. Finally, it also seems to me that after 30 years of doing this, I have yet to regret buying a single vintage card; I have many, many regrets about the ones I've sold. Seeing that N150 Sullivan with all the miscutting and faded image fetch over $1,100 yesterday in Lelands made me sorry I traded off my SGC 50. Until I looked at my 1917 Zeenut Frank Chance again. Ah, the stuff dreams are made of...
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>To me, the Toleteros has the look and feel of a baseball card while the postcard does not. I think it can be distinguished from the 48L Ruth and 40PB Jackson on the basis that they had many cards issued during their career but Gibson did not have any (unless you count the postcard). EDITED TO FIX TYPO
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Anybody know how the Toleteros were issued?<br /><br />Were they in cigarette packs??<br /><br />Certainly the presence of the Gibson card in the set could be explained by the company's desire to sell a LOT of cigarettes while people "chase" the legendary player's card.<br /><br />
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>It just is. (The Toleteros are cards, not stickers. You had to use glue to put them in an album, just like you would with '87 Topps.) The greatest catcher of all time, and very possibly the greatest player. He hit .370 with power after he had gained 70 pounds and was shooting heroin every night. And that Toleteros is all we've got. One of the top ten cards in the hobby, easily. IMHO of course.<br /><br />--Chad
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>BlackSoxFan</b><p>I could not even begin to imagine calling this card one of the hobby's 10 most important cards issued. It's a Tribute card. As i said, I could issue a pretty nice set of Negro League baseball cards today with my printer and some spare time. Even if i did so with the intention of making them honest an representation of a "Baseball Card" it does not make them valuable. Even if I produced 10,000 10 card sets and managed to only produce 1 Gibson ... they still aren't valuable. Rarity does not equal value. I wouldn't pay more for the Toly than I would any other HOF card from the early 50's.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Black Sox Fan<br /><br />- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br /><a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a><br /><a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Andy Baran</b><p>My understanding is that they were issued in small packs of cards. They were not issued with any tobacco or candy products. Also, they were issued in PUERTO RICO, not Cuba as mentioned in an earlier post. Also, they are cards, not stickers. There was an album issued with them, but you had to GLUE them into the album yourself. There was never any adhesive issued with the cards. There are lots of latin american cards incorrectly labelled as stickers in the price guides.<br /><br />For what it is worth, I believe that Gibson was issued for the sole reason that collectors in Puerto Rico wanted a card of him. Surely the producers of the set knew that it had been a number of years since he played on the island, and that he had passed away several years before the cards were issued. There are 2 earlier Toleteros sets, and neither of them have a Gibson card.<br /><br />I personally do not have interest in the Gibson card (at least not at today's prices) due to it's timing, but I completely understand why so many collectors want one, and why they are willing to pay high prices for them.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I happen to consider it one of the top ten cards in the hobby. Yes, it was created after his playing days, but it was created because the people who saw him play for years wanted a card of him. The card was created and sold within Gibson's millieu and, if it came several years too late, it just makes the issue of the card more bittersweet, and, for me, interesting. Personally, I'm not all that interested in the Blacksox, but to each their own.<br /><br />--Chad<br /><br />
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Heroin every night is fine. Just don't take steroids.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Do people consider the 1969 Topps Mantle a "tribute" card? It was issued after his last season, and indeed notes his retirement.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>BlackSoxFan</b><p>Chad - I'm not sure why you took a jab at the Black Sox and my personal collecting habbits, especially since I did not attack you or your habbits. One has nothing to do with the other. Why people try and pick fights is beyond me. Back on point ... How do you consider a card produced after a person dies to be in his 'milieu'? The guy was dead. I cannot imagine the card getting much more out of Gibson's element than that. I am curious to hear your response. I do have one request to make, if you cannot keep it in the spirit of the discussion, then feel free to keep your opinion to yourself.<br><br>Regards,<br /><br />Black Sox Fan<br /><br />- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br /><a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a><br /><a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I have an interesting question:<br /><br />Instead of being produced in Puerto Rico... what if this card had been issued by LEAF in 1949* (along with the Paige card) and was exactly as scarce today as the Paige card is? <br /><br />*This would still be after Gibson's death in 1947.<br /><br /><br /><br />Worth less than the Toleteros card is now?<br /><br /><br />Worth more than the Toleteros card is now?<br /><br /><br />No difference to any of you?<br /><br /><br />
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I think Jeff might have been comparing the sale price of the PSA 7 Gibson to that of the SGC 4 Gibson that ended on 10/2/05 on eBay (rather than to the SGC 8). I think even Hal would agree that $27k for the PSA 7 is unexpectly low considering that the SGC 4 sold for $25.6k.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>I think phrases such as "I can't imagine" come off as more condescending than you intend. If you don't appreciate the Gibson card as much as I, or others do, that's fine. There are a lot of cards people go gaga for here that I don't have any particular interest in, but I can usually see where they're coming from and would certainly never tell them I can't imagine the value they place on it.<br /><br />As for the Gibson: Look, we're not talking about a Fleer Greats of the Game refractor or a Helmar brewing card. It was a card released in a place Gibson had recently played to sate the demand of fans who had recently seen him play. For them, it was a living card. I'm not arguing that the card is not a trubute card, I'm arguing that it doesn't matter, that there even is a tribute card of him is, in fact, remarkable. He was that good. He was that much a giant to those who saw him play. To me, that's a freakin great card.<br /><br />--Chad
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>BlackSoxFan</b><p>Chad -<br />As you clearly cannot stay on topic i have nothing left to say to you. I still can't imagine putting the gibson card in the top-10 and you love it. Great, done & let us move on.<br /><br />Hal -<br />I think that's an interesting question. I'm not sure if you are comparing it to the Page card or not. Regardless, I put a great deal more value on the Page than I do the Toly. I can't imagine the "value" of a Josh Gibson card being much higher than this. All things considered, I would have to say that it would be relatively the same. I would even think it might go a tad bit higher as many people in the hobby have may have never heard of the card because of its' rare issue.<br><br>Regards,<br /><br />Black Sox Fan<br /><br />- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br /><a href="http://www.blacksoxfan.com" target="new" border="0"><img src="http://www.blacksoxfan.com/images/art/sig.jpg"></a><br /><a href=mailto:shoelessjoe@blacksoxfan.com?subject=Ne t54>email me</a>
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I don't think there is any question that all else equal, it would be worth more as part of a mainstream issue.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Chad</b><p>Are we not talking about the Josh Gibson Toleteros? In explaining why I value the card, I think I'm adding to the discussion of why the card goes for thousands and thousands of dollars despite the fact it's a tribute card. ALL cards ONLY have value for sentimental reasons and so I think my post is pretty much right on topic. But I guess I shouldn't post anymore since I now have been told not to. I'll go stand in the corner. And, yes, there's beer in the corner. And I value the beer a 3 dollars a pint even tho it's an Irish issued beer.<br /><br />--Chad
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Peter:<br /><br />Maybe the 1949 Leaf set really ISN'T "skip numbered"??<br /><br />Maybe we just haven't found all the Josh Gibson and Mickey Mantle cards yet!!<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>andy becker</b><p>i think any collector can have his own top ten list without having to answer to others.<br />we all have our own opinions.....why try to project your beliefs on someone else?<br /><br />as always, i think a beer is a good call.<br /><br />edited to respond to hal's last post.<br />hal, you are a classic!
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Mark, that's correct. And the dropoff in value of this card is astonishing in such a short period of time (2 months?).
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Joe P.</b><p>I hear through the grapevine that Ultra Upper/Lower Deck is putting out a set in 2006 with a touch of history.<br /><br />The set will be made up of the current players in baseball except for the first two.<br /><br />The set will be called, "Let's Play Two".<br /><br />Player #1 will be ANSON, followed by player #2 Josh Gibson.<br /><br />Anson #1 sp. (short print)<br /><br />Josh Gibson #2 sp - sp. (even shorter) --- just an inside tip.<br /><br />Be the first kids on the block to get them before they disappear.<br /><br />BTW:<br />My favorite Toletero is that of Jose Enrique Montalvo - catcher.<br />Back in the '40's and early '50's, I knew him and his family very well.<br />One day in Central Park he said to me, "OK Joe, let's see what you've got?"<br />Never got to San Juan to try out for the team - Korean War.<br /><br />I LUV this thread. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>The argument for why you would want to own the Gibson Toleteros card is an extremely easy argument. IT IS THE ONLY CARD OF A TRULY GREAT BASEBALL PLAYER. This hobby to me is ultimately about baseball...not about special cardboard, errors in printing, etc. SURE, I like having rare back T206s, but only of HOF baseball players. I have no interest in collecting cards of poor or even marginal players (it's OK to me that other people do...I just have no interest in that). I want to have cards of great players. Some think Gibson was the greatest. I am not sure I agree, but I do agree that he was great. If you are going to collect cards of great players, then I somewhat see this card as a must...your personal finances permitting.<br><br>Edited to correct typos unless otherwise noted.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p><a href="http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=114&auctionid=603" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=114&auctionid=603</a>
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Josh Evans</b><p><br />For the record I found 4 or 5 in my initial trips to Puerto Rico last year <br />Since then, nada<br />This is the last one in the current Lelands auction <br />Not to say I won’t find another tomorrow but this is the end of the original “find”<br />Josh Evans<br /><br />
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>For those who have the funds and the desire to own this card, that's OK. However, I would never pay that much for an "all time great tribute" card. Josh Gibson may have been great, but we really will never know. As we will never really know how great players like Sadaharu Oh or Victor Starffin were. For those reasons, I wouldn't have so much enthusiasm in bidding on it. However, if that's your cup of tea, then go for it!
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>If you collect a card from every Hall of Famer, you need this card. Thats why its so pricy. HOF collectors need it. How many vintage Gibson cards are out there, and how many collectors are HOF collectors. Its all supply and demand. Look at the prices of other high demand Negro leaguers cards. And there are only a handful of each known.<br /><br />1909 Cabanas Pete Hill 15,000+<br />1910 Punch Mendez $15,000++<br />1923 Billiken Pop Lloyd $13,000<br />1923 Billiken Oscar Charleston $15,000<br />1923 Billiken Torriente $6,000<br />1949 Tolleteros Hilton Smith $19,000<br />1949 Tolleteros Leon Day $12,000<br />1950 Tolleteros Josh Gibson $25,000+<br />etc.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>A postcard with a baseball theme becomes a baseball card at the point that the original purchaser makes their choice (rather than "Sunning in Miami, wish you were here)" based on the theme portrayed.<br /><br />As another example, in the early '50s topps produced non-sport cards depicting cars (Wheels), airplanes (Wings), trains (Rails) and sailing boats (Sails); but no warships. I cut out the side of a plastic, glue together warship model box cover which showed a warship, and the resultant cutout was about the size of the Topps cards. This cutout survived with some of the Topps, and other cards of my youth.<br /><br />The point being: the identification of a baseball (or other similar) card, as such, is made on a gut level by the original owner of the item. This identification, although irrefutable, can be difficult to ascertain. imho.<br /><br />To me, my cutout warship is a legitimate card, eventhough that was not its manufacturer's intent. I may have some difficulty selling it, but why would I want to do that anyway.<br /><br />Sorry for the rambling, all. I guess this doesn't really clear up Hal's inquiry.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I will gladly pay $15,000 for a Cabanas Pete Hill or a Punch Jose Mendez. Please let me know where I can find one.
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Interesting read. Gibson's greatness seems to be growing by the hour...almost as fast as the number of these cards turning up. [REA has one also].<br /><br />Frank
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1951 Toleteros Gibson on Leland's
Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p><<For the record I found 4 or 5 in my initial trips to Puerto Rico last year>><br /><br />Josh: Just curious, how many unique/different examples have you handled altogether? How many others did you handle before your initial trips to Puerto Rico? From my understand - there are actually three of these going to be on the auction block in the next few months - Leland's (yours), Lifson and perhaps another one in Ryan's.... To me that leads to some obvious conclusions.<br /><br />~ms
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