Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />As to your last post, I'm not saying an auction house to absolve itself of liability has a duty to independently corroborate; I believe I've also said explicit disclosure would be an adequate duty.<br /><br />I would also argue that statistics can in and of itself establish the necessary red flag to necessitate the disclosure duty (i.e., the belief that a statistically significant percentage of slabbed vintage cards are altered as a matter of law could establish the red flag).

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yes Kevin, absolutely, but what if I simply couldn't detect it? Some of these alterations, as you know, are incredibly sophisticated. And that is exactly why I pay that $100 fee to the graders- because they are supposed to have the skills that I don't.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"And that is exactly why I pay that $100 fee to the graders"<br /><br /><br /><br />ouch!

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Corey -- establishing a duty based on a BELIEF that a signficant percentage of graded cards are bad? Seems awful speculative to me. Not to mention the evidentiary issues in proving the existence of such a "belief" or "perception."

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Kevin- I hear you, but I am going to put you to task:<br /><br />What do you think would be the proper resolution for this situation? If I can't trust the graders, and I don't have the skills myself, should I turn down every card consigned to me above VG or worth more than $500, so that my risk is cut to virtually zero?

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>My strategy from now on is that any card over $1,000 I buy they have to send it to Kevin Saucier who will then give me his opinion. If I choose not to buy the card based on what Kevin tells me, I will pay Kevin's fee and the cost of postage/insurance.<br /><br />I haven't told Kevin this yet but based on prior conversations he has volunteered to look at my cards anytime so I assume this is fine.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I think that is great. But if he deems a graded card altered, who do you go to for restitution?

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Kevin- I hear you, but I am going to put you to task:<br /><br />What do you think would be the proper resolution for this situation? If I can't trust the graders, and I don't have the skills myself, should I turn down every card consigned to me above VG or worth more than $500, so that my risk is cut to virtually zero?"<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Sure you can trust the graders, I think they get it right most of the time. I didn't know that if you spent $100 per card it was looked at closer than if you spent $10. Doesn't seem right. I thought the $100 just gave it a faster turn around time. Am I wrong? Trying to get a better understanding is all.<br /><br />As an auction house, I would assume you wouldn't turn down any card that was sellable.<br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier <br /><br />

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>D. C. Markel</b><p>"'But the thrust of your point, at least as regards PSA (assuming what I read is correct that they have inexperienced graders, perhaps working without adequate equipment) is correct"<br /><br />Can anyone find that article written by Orlando not so long ago where he states the common misconceptions about grading (no lights, loupe, etc.)'"<br /><br /><br />I have the article. It's on page 14 of the June 2007 SMR. I have seen this article misquoted several times on various message boards. In short, the article states that graders don't measure EVERY card and don't look at EVERY card under magnification. It clearly states that they use those tools, but not on EVERY card. Do you need to "loup" a modern card with a crease or dinged corner or measure a card that appears to have wide borders for that issue? Of course not. <br /><br />The article also debunks the myth that evidence of trimming is detected by a simple measurement with a ruler.<br /><br />Again, people read a lot more into this article than what was written and concluded that PSA graders don't use loups nor measurement devices, which is false.<br /><br /><br />

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />As I no longer buy at auctions(at least expensive cards), I would make my purchase contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval. If a seller refused my terms, that would tell me a lot about the card to begin with.<br /><br />With collectors increasingly nervous about shelling out big money for a high end card, this would give me an edge in the marketplace.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Do you need to "loup" a modern card with a crease or dinged corner or measure a card that appears to have wide borders for that issue?"<br /><br /><br /><br />IMO...yes.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />You tell me on this one. Can a duty of mere disclosure be established by it being evidentiarly established that the baseball card collecting universe recognizes that the percentage of slabbed graded altered cards is statistically significant, even though there is no known legally recognizable study that quantifies a precise percentage?<br /><br />EDITED for spelling

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Kevin- I've always wondered the same thing. You would assume that for $100 your card would get a much more thorough look, even though part of that money goes to fast turnaround and the fact it is valued in excess of 5K.<br /><br />And you are correct, I never turn down valuable cards that are already graded.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Kevin- I've always wondered the same thing. You would assume that for $100 your card would get a much more thorough look"<br /><br /><br /><br />Wonder if anyone knows the answer to this. If they all get the same look regardless of price, maybe this can save you some money.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Corey, we are probably in uncharted legal waters here, but if I were a court I sure would be reluctant to do that, and that is assuming you could prove this "perception" which by the way is hardly "universal" I would think. And I am not sure how you would prove this "perception" anyhow consistent with the rules of evidence. Is it a proper subject of expert testimony? Possibly but possibly not. So how else would you prove it, print out a series of Net 54 threads and try to offer them into evidence not for the truth of the matter asserted (which would be inadmissible hearsay) but for the state of mind of the posters? And how far would that go really towards proving a "universal" "perception"? Have some collectors testify? As to what, their own perception or their perception of the general perception? I am not trying to be a wiseass here but it isn't as easy as you think to "prove" things sometimes.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"As I no longer buy at auctions(at least expensive cards), I would make my purchase contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval."<br /><br /><br />I better go buy seal <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>. <br /><br />Jim, as I tell everyone...I try my very best to give an accurate opinion based on objective findings but don't claim to be an expert. I have no loyalty to any company and will tell it like it is based on what I know, for better or worse. Sometimes an opinion can't be made at all for one reason or another. On a good note, I do measure, use loups and various lights on all cards. Many thanks for your support.<br /><br /><br />Kevin

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Not saying it is easy though I can say this. Auction houses are making considerable sums from the sales of slabbed graded cards. In my view a statistically significant percentage of them are altered, and I hardly feel I am alone in this view. In time the s**t will hit the fan and some buyers will discover that what they own are worth substantially less than they paid. They will then look to recoup their losses. If I was running an auction house, I would be hiring legal counsel to advise me whether I should be making additional disclosure and/or undertaking additional measures to safeguard my company from potential exposure. Bottom line -- I am far from persuaded current disclosures/actions (or lack thereof) will provide the necessary legal safeguard. Perhaps I am wrong. I feel reasonably confident, though, one way or the other we will eventually find out.<br /><br />EDITED to add my name

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Corey I agree it will hit the fan eventually. No question. And I would also counsel making as many disclosures as possible to protect myself, particularly as I don't think they would deter sales one iota.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>IS that SGC will look at a higher value card with more scrutiny than a lower valued one....I could be wrong but it seems like common sense....They are getting 5x-10x the fee and have more liability....If I were them I would be more careful. <br /><br />As for legal issues I would go into them but then I would have to learn about them first. I think Joann has gotten her monies worth in this thread....

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />If you own vintage high grade cards chances are that you are able to sell them for substantially more than you paid for them--the returns on buying high grade sports cards have been spectacular in the last decade.<br /><br />Any correction in prices will likely be minimal relative to how dramatically they have risen.<br /><br />Part of this I think is the envy that some holders of ungraded vintage sportscards have of collectors who have bought a lot of graded cards. They are frustrated that they missed the boom in graded sportscard values and are wishing them down(like our friend Joe).<br /><br />Tough question for many to answer is how could you have been right there in the middle of it and not benefitted financially at all. Its like working for Google and never buying any stock.<br />

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I will actually agree with your post but, quite honestly, it is more about the value of the cards going up than the holders. Don't get me wrong I do agree that many times the highest graded cards have gone up faster but my collection is far from high grade and it's gone up dramatically since I bought it. I have personally gotten most of my most valuable cards graded myself after buying them raw.....

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />We'll have to compare return on invested capital and if mine is higher maybe you won't think I'm a moron anymore.<br /><br />I would say in general that high grade graded cards have far outperformed ungraded.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />You don't know me but many on this board/in this hobby do. You have every right to disagree with my views and believe that I express them out of sour grapes. But trust me when I tell you I have no envies/frustrations that I missed the boom on anything.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- if the owners of ungraded cards are envious of collectors who have graded ones, which I tend to doubt, wouldn't they just go out and get them graded? Seems like it's never too late if you choose to do so.<br /><br />And vintage cards have increased in value across the board. Great rarities like E107 have multiplied as much as any high end T206 or Goudey. They just don't exist in NR MT condition.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Corey,<br /><br />I didn't suggest that you did have them--its obvious though that some do.<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />I said high grade vintage sportscards--most collectors of ungraded cards on this board do not own them in high grade.<br /><br />For example I bought a high grade 41 Play Ball psa 10 from Dave Forman in the early 90s for about $250. Its a pop 1 and probably would sell for $20,000 today. While that may be extreme, almost every prewar 8 I bought 10-15 years ago is at a minimum 5-10 bagger and in many cases substantially more.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>It will be impossible ever to compare the rates of returns on graded v. ungraded due to the obvious fact that ungraded cards are more difficult to slot into categories of comparison due to their lack of grade! Unless you can track exact card for exact card, there's no point.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But as we've said before many vintage cards simply do not exist in high grade yet have likewise skyrocketed.<br /><br />Compare the price of an Old Judge California League player from ten years ago to today. It's probably increased 20 fold, and that would apply for a PSA 2.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I take back the "moron" comment about you. I did edit it out but I know someone else still had it in a post. I should have been nicer but you would have to be in my shoes sometimes. I love the hobby and don't think I am the way some folks portray me to be. I can assure anyone I don't run this board for the millions I make off of it <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>. And yes, I will compare notes with you on values....My guess is almost anything (pre wwII, anyway) bought more than about 2 yrs ago has done very well. best regards

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I just don't think its true across the board.<br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />We differ on card restoration although I believe I did read that you said that you believe now that any alteration prior to grading is wrong.<br /><br />I do appreciate you clamping down on the personal attacks. These two or three posters come out of the blue and the only thing they do is attack me without addressing any issue.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I would like to politely ask you to refrain from derailing this thread. I am finding it both helpful and fascinating, and would like any remaining life it has left to be spent on topic. <br /><br />To take a law-based discussion on the potential liabilities in the graded card arena and turn it into a statement regarding the motivations of some of the posters (envy over the money that graded collectors are making, and frustration over having missed out) is inflammatory enough to turn this into yet another flame war.<br /><br />Please allow this thread to go on the course it had been following.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Joann

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I'm responsible too Joann, so I will cease and desist (legalese!)

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Okay Joann--will do.

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Jim, I dare you to crack that card out and resubmit it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />On a serious note, and hopefully getting back to the subject of the thread, I do think that while there has been a tremendous increase in demand for (and therefore price of ) cards, there exists a serious potential to derail all that if (through litigation or otherwise) what is now largely fear innuendo and speculation becomes proven -- namely that a whole hell of a lot of big dollar high end cards are altered. I think that when you start seeing lawsuits, and I believe you will, the legal principles and results that emerge from the first few cases could have very important implications for auction houses, dealers, grading services, and collectors. <br /><br />

Legal issues in the hobby
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Sorry about that Joann...I got derailed too and didn't even realize it. Back to legal stuff.....