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Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Bob PomillaI guess kids with cancer are among those "caucasians that don't treat blacks well".

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, it's difficult of me to think of you as being "speechless." <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I really don't know why Barry was such a jerk with Ron Kittle and those kids. But Barry's articulate and complicated, I don't think simple racism on his part explains it. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Joe PelaezThere's a wax figure of Peter C, being created for the Wax Museum. ............... There's a little book in the figures hand. The title: The Insightful Thoughts of Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Zach S.Peter, Are you Barry Bond's P.R. guy? For every negative comment that someone makes about him you have an excuse... he should definately put you on his payroll. And for the record... *. Zach S. E.T.A. - maybe it was 'roid-rage racism?

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoJoe, I know you will never be accused of being "speechless," I can feel you are just warming up. This may not solicit much sympathy for Barry, but he's actually caught in a difficult spot. Blacks probably think he's an "oreo." Black on the outside and white in the inside for living in a white upper class neighborhood like Beverly Hills. At the same time I doubt that he feels completely accepted by his neighbors. Possibly another way of looking at Barry's response to Ron Kittle and the kids is that his actions were childish. But that's what happens when you are a celebrity your entire life, people around you are more than willing to cater to your irrational whims. Even when you make racist comments, there are people who will say, "...oh that's just Barry" like Matt Williams did. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Joe PelaezGoing into the diplomatic corps. You're perfect for the current administration. ......

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoI'm simply a grown man who still has heroes. Cal Ripken and Barry Bonds, they are as different as can be, but they are my heroes. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Zach S.You got that right.... Cal Ripken = good guy Barry Bonds = crap I was thinking of all the petitions I've signed to get Joe Jackson and Pete Rose into the HOF and it's making me want to start one to keep Bonds out.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: AnonymousI'm the one that told you ... that Cobb and Bonds are innocent, until PROVEN guilty. ... You're the one with the guilt trip, and you prove that every time you open your mouth. You have no idea how much I miss the New York Giants fans, and Brooklyn Dodger fans. Willie, Mickey an da Duke Joe P. ... Keller - DiMaggio - Henrich ... watta an outfield.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: davidcycleIn my opinion, Bonds has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt of taking illegal performance enhancing drugs. With his admission of taking steroids and strong circumstantial evidence. I understand and believe in the court system, but find the "no court case = automatic innocence inside and outside the legal system" to be a bogus standard. In fact, it's a standard no one subscribes to. John Wilkes Booth, as just one example, never faced a trial, yet the vast majority of US historians and citizens confidently label him as guilty of assassinating Abraham Lincoln.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: jay behrensDsvid, you need to go back and read the leaked grand jury testimony. Bonds NEVER admitted to taking any PEDs. That's people's interpretation of his testimony, but it's not what he actually said. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Josh AdamsJay, What did he say? I was under the impression that he said that he took a cream and clear substance, but did not know what it was. Josh

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanI think what is most surprising is that adults can still defend sports figures with the lamest arguments on any issue -- no matter how obvious -- as if they were still children arguing at recess. I don't know, but at least for me, even if I love the team or player I can still admit that my "hero" is flawed. By the way, Peter, Cobb's racism during his day was much more 'normal' in society than Bonds' is during his day.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanFROM THE SF CHRONICLE Barry Bonds told a federal grand jury that he used a clear substance and a cream supplied by BALCO, the Burlingame laboratory now enmeshed in a sports doping scandal, but he said he never thought they were steroids, The Chronicle has learned. Federal prosecutors charge that the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative, known as BALCO, distributed undetectable steroids to elite athletes in the form of a clear substance that was taken orally and a cream that was rubbed onto the body. Bonds testified that he had received and used clear and cream substances from his personal strength trainer, Greg Anderson, during the 2003 baseball season but was told they were the nutritional supplement flaxseed oil and a rubbing balm for arthritis, according to a transcript of his testimony reviewed by The Chronicle. Federal prosecutors confronted Bonds during his testimony on Dec. 4, 2003, with documents indicating he had used steroids and human growth hormone during a three-year assault on baseball's home run record, but the Giants star denied the allegations. During the three-hour proceeding, two prosecutors presented Bonds with documents that allegedly detailed his use of a long list of drugs: human growth hormone, Depo-Testosterone, undetectable steroids known as "the cream" and "the clear," insulin and Clomid, a drug for female infertility sometimes used to enhance the effect of testosterone. The documents, many with Bonds' name on them, are dated from 2001 through 2003. They include a laboratory test result that could reflect steroid use and what appeared to be schedules of drug use with billing information, prosecutors told the grand jury. In a September 2003 raid on Anderson's Burlingame home, federal investigators seized documents they said showed Bonds was using banned drugs, according to court records. Anderson was indicted in February on charges of money laundering and conspiracy to distribute steroids in the BALCO case. But Bonds said he had no knowledge of the doping calendars and other records that indicated he had used banned drugs. He said he had never paid Anderson for steroids and had never knowingly used them. And he said he was confident that his trainer hadn't slipped him banned drugs without his knowledge, saying Anderson "wouldn't jeopardize our friendship" by doing that. Bonds testified he had never discussed steroids with his trainer -- not even after federal agents kicked in Anderson's door to serve their search warrant. That was out of respect for Anderson's privacy, Bonds said. To the prosecutors, the substances Bonds said he was using sounded like "the cream" and "the clear," two steroids designed to be undetectable in laboratory testing that Victor Conte, founder of BALCO, is accused of marketing to elite athletes, sometimes with Anderson as middleman. Bonds said that as far as he knew, Anderson had given him only legal products to treat the arthritis and fatigue that afflicted him, especially when playing a day game after a night game. The trainer brought the products into the Giants' clubhouse at Pac Bell Park "once a homestand," Bonds said, and that's where he used them. "I never asked Greg" about what the products contained, Bonds testified. "When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, 'Whatever.' One week after Bonds testified, New York Yankees first baseman Jason Giambi and his brother Jeremy, both former Oakland A's, described in detail how they had injected themselves with performance-enhancing drugs. The Giambis testified they were drawn to Anderson because of Bonds' success. Other players who admitted their use of performance-enhancing drugs were former Giants Armando Rios, Benito Santiago and Bobby Estalella. The players said they had come to know Anderson because he was Bonds' trainer. A sixth witness, Yankees outfielder Gary Sheffield, testified that while he trained with Bonds in the Bay Area before the 2002 baseball season, Bonds had arranged for him to receive "the cream," "the clear" and "red beans," which the prosecutors identified as steroid pills manufactured in Mexico. Sheffield said he had never been told that the substances were steroids. Bonds also was using "the cream" and "the clear," Sheffield said. "Nothing was between me and Greg," Sheffield testified. "Barry pretty much controlled everything. ... It was basically Barry (saying), 'Trust me. Do what I do.' "... I know I've seen Greg give Barry the same thing I was taking. I didn't see him taking those red beans, but I seen him taking this (clear) and this cream here." Since the BALCO scandal erupted, Bonds has insisted he never used banned drugs. But in statements they later denied making, both Conte and BALCO Vice President James Valente, also indicted, told investigators that Anderson was supplying steroids to Bonds, court records show. In addition, The Chronicle has reported that in a secretly recorded conversation, Anderson said Bonds had used an "undetectable" performance- enhancing drug during the 2003 season. The ballplayer and the trainer began working out at a gym near BALCO, Bonds said. He said Anderson had also begun providing him with "vitamin and protein shakes." In 2000 or 2001, Bonds said, Anderson persuaded him to undergo blood and urine testing at BALCO as part of a program touted by Conte to market his legal nutritional supplement, ZMA. Bonds said he already was interested in nutrition issues, testifying that he employed both a cook and a "nutritionist at Stanford." Eventually, he said, Anderson began providing him with an array of supplements: "multivitamin to vitamin E to omega 3s to, you know, ZMA - the ZMA that BALCO had - to liver pills to oxygen ... "But I had no doubt what he was giving me, because we were friends." Bonds said he had met Conte, BALCO's president, two or three times but never paid for the nutritional supplements. Instead, he said, he "did an ad" for BALCO in a muscle magazine, a reference to a photo shoot and feature in Muscle & Fitness that quoted Bonds effusively endorsing Conte's ZMA nutritional supplement product. Bonds said he had begun using the cream and the clear substance at a time when he was aching with arthritis and was distraught over the terminal illness of his father, former Giants All-Star Bobby Bonds, who died Aug. 23, 2003. But Bonds said he got little help from Anderson's products. "And I was like, to me, it didn't even work," he told the grand jury. "You know me, I'm 39 years old. I'm dealing with pain. All I want is the pain relief, you know? And you know, to recover, you know, night games to day games. That's it. "And I didn't think the stuff worked. I was like, 'Dude, whatever,' but he's my friend." Eventually, Bonds said he had stopped using the products, telling the grand jury, "If it's a steroid, it's not working." Bonds insisted he had never paid Anderson for drugs or supplements, but he acknowledged paying him $15,000 in 2003 for weight training. "I paid him in cash," Bonds said. "I make $17 million." In answers that sometimes rambled, Bonds sought to vouch for his trainer as a good and honest person who would never traffic in illegal drugs. "Greg is a good guy, you know, this kid is a great kid. He has a child," Bonds said. At another point, he told the grand jury: "Greg has nothing, man. ... Guy lives in his car half the time. He lives with his girlfriend, rents a room so he can be with his kid, you know? Bonds told the grand jurors that he had given Anderson a $20,000 bonus and bought him a ring after the 73-home run season. He also bought the trainer a ring to commemorate the Giants' 2002 World Series appearance. When a juror asked why the wealthy ballplayer hadn't bought "a mansion" for his trainer to live in, Bonds answered: "One, I'm black, and I'm keeping my money. And there's not too many rich black people in this world. There's more wealthy Asian people and Caucasian and white. And I ain't giving my money up." Prosecutor Jeff Nedrow pressed Bonds about the clear liquid Anderson provided. "Did he ever tell you it was a molecularly or chemically altered steroid? Did Greg ever tell you anything like that?" "No, because my other trainer, who is 50 years old, Harvey, was taking the same stuff," Bonds replied. "And he said it's flaxseed oil." Tim Montgomery, a world-class sprinter, had earlier told the grand jury that Conte used flaxseed oil containers when sending "the clear" to athletes at overseas track meets. For much of Bonds' testimony, Nedrow and Assistant U.S. Attorney Ross Nadel methodically questioned him about documents and evidence seized in the probe. Bonds said he had few insights. The prosecutors queried Bonds about calendars -- taken in a raid on Anderson's home -- that contained his name and notes about performance- enhancing drugs. He replied, "I've never had a calendar with him, never had anything." Bonds said he couldn't explain a calendar page with the name "Barry" on it, nor a note indicating an invoice of $450 for blood tests. Likewise, Bonds said he couldn't translate a document that had the notation "! G !" along with "one box off season" and "two box season, $1,500." The prosecutors thought it referred to Bonds' payments for boxes of human growth hormone, but Bonds said, "I don't know what G is." Asked about a reference to a $450 payment for a bottle of the injectable steroid Depo-Testosterone, Bonds replied, "I have never seen this bottle or any bottle pertaining that says Depo-Testosterone." He also denied ever injecting himself with any drug. Other documents suggested Bonds was using Clomid, the fertility drug that enhances the effect of testosterone; modafinil, an anti-narcolepsy drug used as a stimulant; and the steroid trenbolone. "I've never heard of it," Bonds replied to questions about each drug. Asked about the endurance-boosting agent known as EPO, Bonds said, "I couldn't even pronounce it." Queried about insulin, which also can have a steroid-like effect, Bonds said, "Insulin? I'm not a diabetic." Bonds also was quizzed about a document that said, "Barry 12-2-02, T, 1 cc G - pee." A prosecutor asked, "Does that correspond to you getting, you know, growth hormones or testosterone or giving a urine test or anything of those things that you can recall from Mr. Anderson." "T could mean anything," Bonds replied. "G could mean anything. And pee could probably mean anything." Bonds said he had no knowledge of paperwork indicating that starting in 2001, BALCO had been screening his blood not just for nutritional deficiencies but for steroids. "Do you know why BALCO would have been testing for your testosterone level?" he was asked. "I have no idea," Bonds replied. "Do you know why your testosterone level would have been -- according to the report -- higher than the level, the normal range indicated for males 29 to 49 years old?" "I don't understand this piece of paper," Bonds replied. Elevated testosterone levels can indicate steroid use, according to medical experts. Bonds said he hadn't told the Giants staff what he was doing with Anderson because he didn't trust them. "No way ... we don't trust the ball team," Bonds said. "We don't trust baseball. ... Believe me, it's a business. I don't trust their doctors or nothing." Asked whether he had ever discussed the BALCO probe with Anderson, Bonds said, "The only thing I asked Greg, 'What's it like getting your door blown down. Dude, I never seen anything like that except on TV.' That's about as far as we went on it."

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Joe PelaezDavidCycleback: "In my opinion, Bonds has been proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt of taking illegal performance enhancing drugs. With his admission of taking steroids and strong circumstantial evidence. I understand and believe in the court system, but find the "no court case = automatic innocence inside and outside the legal system" to be a bogus standard. In fact, it's a standard no one subscribes to. John Wilkes Booth, as just one example, never faced a trial, yet the vast majority of US historians and citizens confidently label him as guilty of assassinating Abraham Lincoln." This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:22 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:19 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:11 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 4:00 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 3:58 AM This message has been edited by drc1 on Aug 13, 2007 3:50 AM * * David, late breaking news............ Observations by an entire audience.. After shooting Lincoln, Booth was seen leaping off the Presidential balcony, unto the stage, break his leg in the process, say his E tu Brutus speech, and escape. After seeing Dr Samuel Mudd for his leg, he was cornered elsewhere, and killed while trying to avoid capture. Thus ... no trial. ... What a waste of a captured audience. As for your opinions, they change as often as your editings in a post.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Ryan ChristoffJeff, Were you intentionally trying to be ironic when you said "what is most surprising is that adults can still defend sports figures with the lamest arguments" in the exact same post where you justify Cobb's racism with the lame argument of "By the way, Peter, Cobb's racism during his day was much more 'normal' in society than Bonds' is during his day."? -Ryan

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanRyan -- LOL -- no! But you're right, of course. I suppose in my ham-handed way I meant to point out that the racism of Cobb was not as shocking as the racism exhibited today due to the nature of the two eras. As easy as it is to agree that racism is bad no matter the era (which it is) back then it was part of the fabric of American society. Today, racism obviously still exists but is hardly embraced in the manner it was back then.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoSir Charles said it best, "...I ain't no role-model." I certainly would not use Barry Bonds as a role-model. Definitely, Cal Ripken is a role model and Barry isn't. But when Barry was asked about Balco and the possible indictment earlier this season, Barry came up with the statement that he was ready for the Feds and they should come and get him. Of course, we are horrified by the audacity of the statements, but there's a part of me that says I hope he's not biting off more than he can chew. If all our heroes were like Cal Ripken, life would be boring. Certainly Barry isn't boring. When Barry does crazy things, you are left wondering, "what in the world was Barry thinking about..." Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Joe PelaezWhat in the world is Peter C thinking about??? A penny fot the idle thoughts of Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoAfter Barry retires and after waiting for 5 years, baseball writers will be passing judgment with their HOF balloting. I am sure that more than some of them will be thinking about whether he deserves to go in on the first ballot. My guess is more than a few of them will be looking at Ty Cobb's career and his eccentric personality and making comparisons with Barry. These writers will be saying, "yeah Barry did crazy things, but he can still play ball." Maybe he won't be at the top of everybody's ballot but he'll still get in on the first try. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: JKI seriously doubt anyone will consider cobb when voting on bonds for the HOF.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: davidcyclePeople are also assuming Bonds will be eligible for election. If it is proven that he used steroids for years, aided and supplied drugs to other players, lied about it to a Federal grand jury and the Baseball Commissioner, I would think there would be a good chance Bonds would placed on the baseball's ineligible list. Realize that the evidence in 6-7 years likely will be stronger and tighter than now, perhaps coupled with a court conviction. Today, even the majority of Bonds' supporters believe that he likely used steroids, which is a conversion from just a couple of years ago. When even your supporters believe you did it, that's a bad omen for the future.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoDavid, Here's a little bit of irony for you, it's possible that the baseball card(s) will save Barry. I'm sure that Bud Selig is worried about what Barry would say on the stand, that's probably part of the reason that he had his hands in his pockets when Barry hit the record-tying homer. Bud also tried to muzzle Jason Giambi before he spoke with Sen. Mitchell. The owners and MLB are trying to put some political spin on this whole steroid controversy because they have the most to lose in terms of prestige and money. Steinbrenner and other owners are probably calling the politicians right now to put a lid on this matter. My guess is that the owners and MLB will be successful, and it will be a decade before we find out the role of MLB and the owners in this whole sordid mess. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jason LWhat are you talking about in your last post? It looks like you are trying to address several topics, but I couldn't follow any of them. What about Barry's baseball cards? how will they save Barry? What are you insinuating about Selig? People like to blame Selig for this whole mess, but unless he is actually administering the drugs, I don't understand how he is to blame for other people breaking rules, laws, and participating in unethical behavior.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoNow that I read over my last post, I have to admit it was pretty cryptic. Right now Barry realizes that the Feds are playing hardball. He knows the race card won't work in this situation. However, he has the baseball card, which is he can bring the owners and MLB down with him. The owners and Bud Selig already realize this and they are busy calling politicians right now. Eventually, people are going to cool down and realize it's better to not blow up the steroid issue at this time. Some time down the road, maybe Canseco or some other ballplayer will expose Bud Selig and the MLB owners' role in this mess. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanPlay the race card? What are you talking about?

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jason LTHAT baseball "card"....I get the play on words. I'm nothing if not slow. ...thanks for the clarification. -because, you know, wouldn't that be amazing if the solution to this whole thing was actually printed on the back of a baseball card, hidden in secret code? I know this differs with the opinion you and many others have about this whole issue, but I am having trouble seeing what could possibly incrimate the league, the commissioner, or the team offices. We are learning that players took illegal drugs to enhance their performance. The league initiated a drug-testing program (granted, it took longer than people wanted to put it in place). Now, this beahvior is cheating and cheaters get punished according to a set of rules. Where is the wrong-doing on the part of the officials? I still don't fully understand what is being presumed here. Edited to add: I would love to believe Barry, but I am beginning to have my doubts, because the 42 gallons of flaxssed oil I have taken since he clarified things have done absolutely nothing for me. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I now have developed a rather noxious odor from it.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoI'm referring to O.J. Simpson and his dream team. There were many attorneys who thought that O.J. and Johnny Cochran were just playing the "race card" by trying to expose the racism of the LA police dept. Well...Barry knows it won't work here because there isn't sufficient indication of racism. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo, you think that Barry and his lawyers actually had a conversation in which they opined over the possibility of claiming that his steriod situation with Major League Baseball was similar to the historic racism and targeting of blacks by the LAPD? Peter, you made more sense when you were singing the praises of the Va Tech shooter.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jason Lplease tell me you made that one up

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoSomething like that...then the attorneys said it's not going to work...then somebody got the bright idea, but I know how to get the MLB and the owners on our side quickly. So maybe Michael Rains or somebody else has been calling the baseball owners and giving them the message that Barry doesn't plan on taking the entire rap...he's going to bring owners and the MLB down with him. Is the whole scenario far-fetched...it certainly is, but it is consistent with how money and power works in the United States. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoJason, Jeff is just being argumentative...I wasn't praising the cold blooded killer, I was merely trying to figure out his warped view of the world. But let's not discuss that massacre again. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJason, Peter is right, I was just supporting my argument that Peter often makes no sense, such as when he described the Va Tech killer as 'noble.' Peter, why do you always have to assume that the powers that be in our country are totally base and dishonest? Can you honestly say that you believe that Michael Rains has had contact with the owners of Major League Baseball teams to discuss Barry's legal strategies?

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoJeff, How about this for irony I just noticed on Yahoo News that a New York publisher is going to publish OJ's book, "If I did it." OJ's just asking for it. To get back to your questions...I simply believe that among the Powers That Be...it is still one hand washes the other. Barry is paying big bucks to his attorney and they are calling for favors. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo the criminal lawyer is calling in 'favors' from Major League Baseball? Tell us how that works.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Max WederJeff I think you missed Peter's subtlety. Bonds' attornies aren't calling in favors; Peter indicated they are calling for favors. Apparently, I must have missed the class which taught the law of tenders for favors in law school.... And I thought tax law was complicated. Max

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanMax, sorry I missed that. Now it makes all the sense in the world.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: jay behrensJason, the reason people blame Selig is that when McGwire was caught with Andro, they knew then that players were up to something. He could have easily stepped in and clamped down on this sort of drug use. He decided to do nothing because baseball was making a comeback and he didn't to killed the golden goose. Only when everything blew up in his face did he final come forward to try and do something. To me, someone defending Selig is worse than what you guys think of someone that defends Bonds. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanSo Selig is more culpable than Bonds in this whole mess?

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Frank EvanovI think the idea of Bonds taking baseball down with him is ludicrous. Barry is responsible for his own actions and his alleged steroid use, perjury and tax evasion have nothing to do with MLB. Frank

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoFrank, From what we know, clearly it's far-fetched. But we don't know what Barry knows, and if Barry starts blabbing that may lead to investigations of MLB and Bud Selig. Who knows, I'm just speculating. Peter C.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanWhat impact will The Card have on this?

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoOh yah...The Card...I guess sometimes I do get carried away. But two facts which lend some credibility to this scenario is that Bud Selig told Jason Giambi to limit some of his testimony to Senator Mitchell. And Tony Gwynn when he was inducted into the HOF mentioned that the steroid problem was generally known among baseball people. Now Tony has never been known to shoot off his mouth. So you know he chose his words very carefully, which leads me to think that if anything, he understated the problem. Peter C. Edited to add: There's also a third fact, Bonds was shooting off his mouth about how the Feds should come and get him. Maybe, it wasn't all bravado, maybe he does have some hidden cards up his sleeve. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: jay behrensJeff, I would say yes, becuase if he had stepped in right away done something when McGwire got caught, then the chances of Bonds cheating would have lessened. Although I doubt it would have stopped him, or anyone else that used PEDs that they new were undetectable. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanJay, I don't care for Selig for a number of reasons having nothing to do with the steroid era. And I don't disagree at all with you that he, along with the rest of the owners, obviously are complicit in the spread of steroids in MLB. Notice I don't say that they simply turned a blind eye: I think their actions (and lack of action) make them complicit. All that being said, I think ultimately a man has to take responsibility for his own actions and any rational player who took steroids knew he was cheating. It was always the 'dirty secret' in the clubhouse because it was just that -- a secret -- because the juicers knew what they were doing was wrong. They are the first in line for blame, with the owners right behind them.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: jay behrensThe thing is that during the time frame when people claim Bonds was using PEDs, there was nothing in the rules against it. Unethical? probably. Cheating by definition of the rules? No. Not unless he did it after they made rules against it. Jay The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanThere were also no rules against wearing shoes with rockets to propel players around the bases. If it's unethical in baseball that's enough for me - especially when the users knew enough to hide what they were doing.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Zach S.Barry Bonds was part of the reason WHY major leauge baseball had to enact PED laws/testing. Saying that he's not guilty because MLB never said it was wrong to take PED's is retarded. I echo what Jeff said about how they knew that they shouldn't have been taking PED's or why would they hide it? If it was o.k. for them to take PED's then you know Bonds or McGuire or one of those jackasses would've been making extra money promoting BALCO products. Zach S. <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/zguinness/BarryBonds.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Jeff LichtmanGood point, Zach. However, Bonds did actually do ads for Balco -- but wouldn't you know it, he only appeared in ads promoting vitamin supplements and not the 'flaxseed oil' he was supposedly rubbing on himself.

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Zach S.Jeff, was it something like this? Look what BALCO products did for Barry! Blow up with BALCO! <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/zguinness/barry-bonds-photo.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a> This is a future BALCO advertisement when Barry's estrogen levels start to rise. <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p212/zguinness/barryindrag.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: Rich KleinHe will get in

Ty Cobb- Would He Have Gotten Into the Hall in 1929

Posted By: peter chaoNow that Barry has the HR record, I just hope his head doesn't swell up more. Peter C.