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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>"I like to use a stat called Run Production Rate (RPR). Add Runs Scored and Runs Batted In. Subtract Home Runs ... "<br /><br />Couldn't one argue that Runs Scored and RBIs are (at least SOMEWHAT) dependent upon who bats in front and behind you in the batting order? The better your teammates, the better opportunity you will have to score a run or knock one in. I'm sure some players' RPR are higher or lower because of their teammates. I don't feel thats an equal measuring stick for all players.<br /><br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Wil Jordan</b><p>If you look at the numbers you would have to say that the Babe was the greatest player of his era. However, I feel that the greatest player of all time was Willie Mays. He was a five tool player with a great baseball I.Q. Like Michael Jordan in Basketball Mays was born to play baseball and he could impact a game in so many ways.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Regarding the issue of what their peers thought of Ruth v. Cobb, keep in mind that the first HOF class, voted in by writers, gave Cobb 7 more votes than Ruth -- and this occurred after Ruth retired.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"We can thank Miller Huggins (while Manager of St Louis, NL 1913-17) who had a keen eye for talent, and scouted Ruth from his start. Upon becoming Manager of the Yankees (1918), Huggins convinced Ruppert and Houston to acquire Ruth. Huggins instantly converted Ruth to an outfielder."<br /><br />No, he didn't. It was a certain fellow in Boston named Barrow (maybe you've heard of him?) who converted Ruth to a position player.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, is this recounted in detail in the new book on Barrow?
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>To be honest, I didn't know there was a new book on Barrow.<br />But if there is (I'll check Amazon) it has to be in there.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Thanks for the heads-up, Jeff. I just ordered the book.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Both Ed Barrow and Miller Huggins appreciated Ruth's tremendous hitting ability. Huggins was closely following Ruth when Ruth<br />played for Boston and Huggins was Managing St Louis (NL).<br /><br />I reiterate....Huggins was very influential in bringing Babe Ruth to the NY Yankees.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Since when....do we judge the overall performance of a baseball player by a "consensus" vote ?<br /><br />I will reiterate what I have previously posted here....you can have eight Cobb's on your team and pick your best Pitcher.<br /><br />I will take one Babe Ruth....and, my team will beat yours everytime....he is a winner and he motivates his teammates to <br />be winners. You don't need me to tell you this, look it up......the numbers don't lie. Check this out......<br /><br />Ruth's teams' records<br /><br />1915.....BOS.....AL Champs<br />1916.....BOS.....World Champs<br />1917.....BOS.....2nd place<br />1918.....BOS.....World Champs<br />1920.....NYY.....2nd place<br />1921.....NYY.....AL Champs<br />1922.....NYY.....AL Champs<br />1923.....NYY.....World Champs<br />1924.....NYY.....2nd place<br />1926.....NYY.....AL Champs<br />1927.....NYY.....World Champs<br />1928.....NYY.....World Champs<br />1929.....NYY.....2nd place<br />1930.....NYY.....3rd place<br />1931.....NYY.....2nd place<br />1932.....NYY.....World Champs<br />1933.....NYY.....2nd place<br />1934.....NYY.....2nd place<br /><br /><br /><br />Finally, JEFF......these words by Ruth says it all......<br /><br />A sportswriter pointed out to Ruth "that Cobb was the better hitter, since he batted .367". To which Ruth replied with....<br /><br />"You know, I could bat .370 if I wanted to, but you see all these people sitting in the stands, they didn't come out here<br /> to see me hit Singles....they came here to see me hit Home Runs".<br /><br /><br />Regards buddy,<br /><br />T-Rex TED<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"I reiterate....Huggins was very influential in bringing Babe Ruth to the NY Yankees."<br /><br />Yes, he was. But, by the time he did, Ruth was already pretty much a position player.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted, Cobb was neither popular with his teammates, opponents nor reporters. Ruth was, in fact, popular with all of those. Yet, both their contemporaries and reporters -- who, unlike us, actually watched the two men play -- voted Cobb the better player. I'll take that consensus over our 80 year hindsight any day of the week.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I was 9 years old when Ruth died in the Summer of '48. From then till now, I have read many books and<br /> articles on Ruth.....no hindsight here, I feel like I was there when he played, I've read that much.<br /> He was an amazing man, bigger than life itself.<br /><br />I am a lifelong Yankees fan.....so, I guess I'm partial to winners like Ruth, Anson, DiMag, Jackie Robinson,<br /> Mantle.<br />You are a Mets fan....and, for whatever reasons you favor Cobb....and, that's fine with me.<br /><br />I'm an Electronics Engineer....and, I appreciate numbers (Stats) and how they reflect the value of a BB<br /> player to his team.<br />You're a Lawyer....and you appreciate "consensus".<br /><br />
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted, your reading about Ruth -- but not witnessing a single game of his career -- with all respect, has as much value as someone born in the year 2098 who reads the same books. That's the thing about good books: they tend to transport readers to the times that are contained therein. <br /><br />As for my being a Mets fan, I actually grew up a Dodgers fan, though I'm not sure how either is relevant to my thoughts on Cobb/Ruth. I happen to like the Yankees as well (honestly). As for "winners", how many World Series titles did Jackie Robinson have? One -- and he lost 5 others. That hardly makes him a loser. I don't think that how many rings you have totally defines your value as a player just as I don't believe that Don Zimmer was a better player than Ted Williams.<br /><br />As for my legal training, again, I'm not sure how that impacts on my ability to clearly see that the groups of baseball writers and greatest players who watched Ruth and Cobb both were wrong in picking Cobb over Ruth. Numbers ain't everything -- though I did get an A in my Consensus class in law school so you may be on to something.<br /><br />I think in the end it is easy to be impressed by the gargantuan numbers and giant shadow that Ruth cast over the game -- deservedly so. I just think that Cobb's game was filled with more intangibles than Ruth's which don't show up in boxscores. And finally, your belief that Ruth was better than Cobb is based partly, as you admit, on what you read: books written by people that saw Ruth play. Well, the great writers that wrote those books wrote about what they saw and they also talked to Ruth's contemporaries for their opinions -- and both the writers and players (by an unscientifically small margin) agree that Cobb was a better player. Perhaps you misinterpreted what you read? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> At the very least, I'm sure you can agree that my conclusion that Cobb was a better overall player is at least based on logical, empirical evidence. <br /><br /><br /><br />
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Stephen Mitchell</b><p>Having read a good many of these posts I must admit my mind (for now) is changed. I now believe Babe Ruth was the greatest baseball player of all time. It is hard to argue with Ruth's bold black marks in the baseball encyclopedias and his teams' collective finishes - not to mention his superiority on the mound.<br /><br />I have a problem, however: thirty years ago I worked with author John McCallum to produce a card set promoting Mr. McCallum's latest book, TY COBB (Praeger Publishers). The title of the card set was "Ty Cobb - Baseball's Greatest Player". Chalk it up to youthful inexperience, but I still think Cobb may be considered a reasonably close second to The Babe.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>I was going to call it quits on this debate, as we are just talking past each other. But, your<br /> last sentence blew me away ! You said....<br /><br />"At the very least, I'm sure you can agree that my conclusion that Cobb was a better<br /> overall player is at least based on logical, empirical evidence."<br /><br />What "logical, empirical evidence" ? And, Cobb "better overall".......please tell me you are<br /> joking.....aren't you Jeff ?<br /><br />I'll spare you the details on Ruth's HR's....Runs....RBI's.....or, Ruth's amazing pitching record.<br /><br />"Better overall", you say.....let's compare Fielding Averages:<br /><br />Ruth.... .960 - .970<br /><br />Cobb.... .950 - .960<br /><br />Ruth (having been a pitcher) had the superior throwing arm over Cobb.<br /><br /><br />And, while we're at it, let's get down to the nitty-gritty by comparing World Series performances:<br /><br />.............AB......Hits.....BA.......SLA.....HR .....R......RBI<br /><br />RUTH.....129......42.... .326.... .744.....15.....37.....33......(10 WS)<br /><br />COBB.......65......17.... .262.... .354......0......7......11.......(3 WS)<br /><br /><br />I have read that Mr Cobb didn't fare too well batting against Ruth. When Cobb first faced Ruth<br /> he would arrogantly taunt Ruth. And, the more Cobb taunted the 20-year old southpaw, the<br /> more effective Ruth was in striking-out Cobb, or causing him to hit into a feeble out. It was<br /> the young Southpaw against the mighty Left-handed hitter and it's my understanding that<br /> Ruth won this battle many times more often than not.<br /><br />We could go on, and on, with these comparisons....but, I think it's time for you to start cut-<br />ting your losses on this argument. The numbers are against Mr Cobb in virtually all departments.<br /><br />Perhaps, you can win some points on Cobb's...."intangibles"....whatever they are ? ?<br /><br />TED Z <br /><br />
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ted, a baseball player is not measured solely by numbers. If that were the case, the sportswriters and baseball players of the eras of Ruth and Cobb would have easily voted Ruth the better player. They didn't -- in fact, while they unanimously liked Ruth more, they voted Cobb the better player. I trust their first-hand and more educated opinions more than I trust either yours or mine on this subject. Therefore, I'm stuck agreeing with the experts instead of novices like you and me -- so I have to stick with Cobb on this one.
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Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux
Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>Ahhhh, those numbers....those stubborn darn numbers....but, that's the beauty of Baseball....talking numbers,<br /> comparing stats. No other American sport enjoys the significance of numbers as BB does. But, I'll not further<br /> this discussion using numbers.<br /><br />So, if you are alluding to the 1942 The Sporting News poll of 100 former major leaguers and managers, then I<br /> will simply offer....in 1942, it was too soon to judge Ruth in the proper perspective. On the other hand Cobb<br /> had been retired for approx. 15 years; and, it is human nature to evaluate others in a better light as time<br /> passes. I still recall the tremendous out-pourring of grief when Ruth died in 1948. The enormous processions<br /> of young and old fans that attended his funeral all saw Ruth PLAY....and if you are so concerned about polls....<br />then this was the true "poll". The American people voted with their presence.<br /><br />As they did when Ruth was playing, when 60,000 fans would fill the seats in Yankee Stadium every day for 12 <br />years (1923-1934).<br /><br /><br />
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