A lot of "what if" games and analogies going on in this thread. Instead of seeing who's on what side and proving how wrong shilling is and what it could/does to our hobby, why don't we try to come up with a master plan? First off, maybe Leon could ban him from this board permanently. Second, we could round up 100 or so net54ers and we could all email or contact eBay and gripe about the situation...it might not matter, but at least we aren't stuck in a forum smacking each other around about it.


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:confused: If a dealer has a card listed on eBay for $400 BIN or Best Offer and you're willing to pay the $400 asking price, do you submit a Best Offer to try and get it cheaper, or do you just hit the BIN since you were willing to pay that price anyway?

this sounds like another...recent thread? And the OP's answer surprised me?

What exactly is "to do something about it"? Provide a partial refund for every Tom, Dick, and Harry who thinks a legitimate snipe bid "shilled" him? He probably already deals with dozens of returns a week due to simple buyer's remorse. Maybe he should wrap his package advertising included with every order with $20 bills as well. Does shilling occur on some of his auctions and with other larger consignment companies? Duh, welcome to reality. There are also people like me. In November I won 3-4 PSA/DNA cards from him. I make on average 2-3 eBay purchases a month with the majority being BIN's. So had you won any of the other 3-4 cards I was the under bidder on my bid % would have likely been very high and look like shilling. It wasn't. It was me bidding on multiple like items with the same seller. How often does that happen with a seller of his volume?

This is nine pages of Probstein is a crook and Probstein knows some of his auctions are shilled but absolutely no one has provided a viable solution for a larger eBay consignment house to implement.

Lock him up and throw away the key!! Of course we should do the same to card doctors, agreed Jeff?:D

Scott already told you that you were being silly, but I want to reiterate it. By "do something about it" I mean ban consignors that are shilling their own auctions. Once again, Probstein was given names (eBay usernames and real first and last names) of consignors that were shilling their own auctions. He didn't do anything about it. He continues to do business with them. How about banning them when they're caught, is that a viable solution???

Hey leave us card doctors out of it. If the shillers can steal money and nobody cares we should be able to also.:rolleyes:

By the way anybody looking for a Blue front 58 Hank Aaron, T206 Wagner, or a nice 52 Mantle? Cash only with no returns.:eek::D

Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)
 

So what I get out of this is that shilling is not illegal to eBay, but no doubt unethical. So all one can do is protest Probstein's auctions and eBay in general.



Let me ask everyone here this question...Since eBay seems to not care about this and most everyone here wants Probstein's head, are you also protesting eBay as well, since they are allowing it? If you are not, you are also part of the problem in my eyes.

I'd surmise Ebay's and Probsteins evolutions are quite similar. Ebay started off as a great new global marketplace...forever changing the way we transact commerce...eventually greed/profits taking presedence turning ebay into a money taking whore.

I'm sure Probstein has evolved similarly.

Lots of really good thoughts on this thread, and some others that I don't agree with at all. Seems that the overall consensus for those who agree that shilling is wrong is that sellers often cannot police themselves due to sheer selling volume, but if a seller is alerted to a shill bidder and THEN does nothing to police that bidder (i.e.ban, etc.) then the problem lies with the seller. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

Also, the analogy earlier on Post #99 does not seem to jell with me; just because one person uses a BIN to purchase a card for $400 does NOT mean the value of the card is $400. The value of any card (imho) is what the trending price is of a card over many auctions/sales. We've seen how some cards sell for huge amounts (because of multiple factors, including TPG, rarity, condition, auction house, seller, number of bidders, etc.) and at other times for more reasonable amounts....

So Pang21 is still consigning cards?

right you are willing to pay less..but the seller isn't willing to sell it for less (whether by open and obvious reserve or shady shilling) than the price that it appears you are willing to pay which appears to be the max price you wanted to pay..

Since eBay has removed the usernames from feedback, I have no way to know that. But, what I do know is that about two years ago Probstein was made aware of Pank21 (or whatever his name is) and did nothing about it at the time because he was caught AGAIN about a year later.




Here's another similar and more recent thread though...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...id+retractions

Do you REALLY believe Probstein did anything in this situation?

The seller is willing to sell it for whatever it sells for at auction. That is the virtue of an auction. There is no set price. I really don't understand your POV that shilling up to a max bid is the same as paying what you were willing to pay. You know as well as I do that you set a max bid in the hopes that you'll pay less. So to me your argument doesn't hold water.

Of course they are, otherwise they would have either put a reserve on the item or had a minimum starting price. It is arguably and act of fraud since the rules of the auction (no reserve, no minimum bid) have changed post facto. Hence one of the reasons shilling auctions is considered an act of fraud in most jurisdictions.

Do ANY ebay consignors do this?

I guess I'm wondering why this thread is about probstein? Do ANY ebay consignors refund shilled auctions, ban shilling accounts and aggressively pursue shillers?

Shilling often is not used as a reserve, but to get the most money out of the bidder above and beyond any so-called reserve.

An example is a consignor in a $9.99 minimum bid auction who is willing to let a card go for $50, a bidder who sets a maximum bid of $75, and the consignor shilling (via bidding and subtracting bids) to get the bidder to pay the $75. If the max bid is $125, the consignor would try to get the bidder to pay that.

because he is one of the most prolific ebay sellers...who consistently sells high quality vintage...and SHILLING is so prevalent in so many of his auctions...that's why!

Do you hold him to a higher standard than all other ebay consignors?

With eBay's billing records wouldn't these instances be just the thing the FBI is looking for in the sports memorabilia business?

...

me personally? NO! I know his auctions to be shilled at an extraordinary degree...so I DO NOT bid on them...ever!

This thread really should have been done after the 1st post or two...if you bid on Probsteins auctions you have noone to blame but yourself if u are shilled.

Don't have a clue and neither does anyone else. Which is a far cry from "he allows it." I guess we can agree to disagree. I understand your point, I just operate under the sense that fighting it is akin to breathing underwater; yeah, you can try it - but you'll drown. If I go out to eat I might get bad service, if I go to store I might have to stand in line, and if participate in an eBay auction I might get shilled, but I won't lose sleep over any of it.

The evidence against Probstein was clearly laid out with all the dots easy to connect (through buyer and seller feedback). There have been many threads about this (like the one I linked in Post #113). I'll tell you what If you can find another eBay dealer shilling their auctions or allowing consignors to shill their auctions, then let me know and I will put just as much effort into drawing attention to them as I did Probstein. Deal?

Once again, you're being silly. Probstein was made aware of the shilling (Panky) and did nothing to stop it. Isn't that the same thing as "allowing it"?

Agreed. I'm done with this thread. If people want to defend Probstein and continue to buy from him, then they get what they deserve.

Shilling is so hard to police / prove / stop you might as well legalize it. Kinda like steroids in baseball. People should set a price they wish to pay and stick to it. If you can't do that, then expect to be shilled.

Cardboard with pictures of athletes?

I try to get it cheaper than 400...if seller says..i am firm on 400...I am in no rush and will wait for my price....then if I am ready to pay 400 I will have to pay 400....

Not just pictures of athletes. In most of our cases they are pictures of much younger athletic men in uniforms. Does that make us all gay perverts?:p

well I would agree there...if someone set a max that is clear to the seller by software or some other method and shilled knowing he would be beaten (and no chance of 'winning') by the poor buyer's offer than I agree that is wrong and would be mad...

I am not mad or think we need to change anything when the shiller is basically bidding to what the reserve should be and is prepared to 'win' the card...he wont 'win' the card if knows someone has a max beyond this hidden reserve...

I just think when the shiller has to relist because 'won' the card or better yet has to pay a buyers premium on his own card because he 'won' that really takes care of it.....eventually he will have to take the lesser price and loose a lot of time and money in the process...

You sure make life sound grand!!!!!!:D

Two years ago, I sold a large portion of my collection. I sent these items to Rick Probstein, since I did not feel like taking the time to list them myself. The sales were just short of $20k and I took a very close look at the auctions. I could find no examples of shilling on any of my auctions. Now, does this mean that no shilling goes on? Of course not. But, how can Rick be held accountable when he cannot possibly be positive of what is going on at any time? I can tell you that I didn't bid on any of my items. But, I have access to my father's ebay account and there is no way that you could have figured shilling, since at the time (he is deceased now) my dad was bidding on dozens of items every month. I could have easily shilled. I sleep well with a little less money in my pocket knowing that I did things on the up and up.

Rick consigns 10,000+ items a month. How can he also police the activities of every single person that consigns with him? And who is to say that there aren't competitors out there that bid on his auctions just to hurt his reputation?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. In my dealings with Rick, he has been a stand up guy and I've had no issues with his integrity whatsoever. My two cents.

Generally true statement...from what I know. It's become more a matter of the consigners knowing they can get away with it...so they continue to. It is/would be extremely difficult to police this...dont buy from Probstein...and dont pay more than you want for ANYTHING...noone's got a gun to your head!

I have no idea if the auctions at issue were shilled, but as for the arguments and excuses that this is too hard to police, I don't buy it. It would take a few minutes to check the bidding patterns of a week's 25 most expensive auctions, or to spot check a few auctions from major consignors.

I'm mainly concerned with shill bidders and their co-conspirators.

Steve, Probstein engages in fraud as well, not just siting idly by while it occurs.

Yeah most card doctors probably have immunity by now anyhow. :(

There could be a lot more to it than just consignors shilling because they know they can get away with it. Probstein is the self-proclaimed largest card seller on ebay. Based on ebay's behavior when it comes to money, I'm sure they are going to 'take care' of him in any way that ebay can get away with. What that means is uncertain, but I'm guessing that at the very least it involves looking the other way. His brazen response to the OP (see first post) is evidence enough for me.

But as all the shilling apologists have said, it's really each person's individual choice. And because of that, to me the bottom line is that this discussion is very worthwhile. At worst, no one changes any of their bidding or consigning habits, but at best, we chink away just a little bit at some of the problems with ebay.

My apologies to Steve or anyone of our other regular posters who I might have offended with my comments.

You're right, David...i will get what we deserve...cardboard that I want to purchase and most of the time, under what my max bid is :)


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It's not about you getting what YOU deserve - it's about the seller and his consignors getting what they do NOT deserve. It's about a playing field that is not level.

I agree Scott...it's bullshit. But cornering people because they purchase stuff from probstein is out of line. IMO if anyone shops eBay, they are in the same boat as me


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It's certainly possible, especially if you buy from any ebay seller who accepts consignments, but the odds are lower if you avoid the crooks. That's all the anti-shillers are saying. On the other hand, the apologists are saying that because other sellers 'might' be dishonest, it's okay to shop with the ones you are sure are.

It's also curious that some of the apologists say that the sellers can't police their own auctions, when we've already given plenty of examples of how to do so - running an honest company is part of doing business, and if you can't afford to do so you need to get into another line of work. Sometimes a business is profitable ONLY because it is not playing by the rules. In addition, plenty of business owners have been accused of dishonest business practice and claimed they had no way of knowing what was going on. Courts don't normally buy that.

I disagree. I might be getting shilled with the sellers I buy from, but I don't think so. You are doing business with someone you KNOW shills.

Guys...I am going to first say that I have bought many cards from Probstein, many of which I was very satisified with the final bid, and some cards after all of the original Probstein shilling accusations. This is what I don't understand...With the obvious proof and legal consequences, why in the hell doesn't Ebay do a damn thing about it? Yes, they love the money they get from Rick, but if these things are rock solid proven, it seems like they would worry just a tad with legal situations....Just my thoughts

shilling
 

How about doing these two things with Probsteins auctions?

1. If you are bidding on an item and it looks like it is being shilled, don't make any additional bids, and retract your current bids. This will leave the consignor holding the bag and buying his own auctions.

2. If you win one of his items and it looks like you have been shilled, don't pay for the item. It won't hurt your ebay standing at all, since eBay seems to allow dozens of npb strikes before it affects your account. When Rick contacts you about the non-payment you can respond that you have been shilled. This will be a pain in the ass for him if enough people don't pay and maybe it will force him to take action.

Rick

As a collector, I don’t want anyone bidding on a card they don’t want to win, but artificially boosting the price of an eBay auction can occur in other ways besides the seller or the consigner directly shilling the card, so in the long run, what’s really the difference?

Say I’m selling what I believe to be a unique card on eBay. I set my price very high. I notice after I set my price that someone else is now auctioning the very same card and it looks like it will sell for much, much lower than mine, so I place a bid or two to jack up the price in order to protect the value of my card. Wouldn’t that have the same result to the eventual buyer of that card as if it were shilled? Should that also be illegal if it could be proven?

Shilling might as well be legal and accepted as part of the dynamics of an auction. After all, there is a risk, reward factor to the person who shills, and anyone can artificially increase an auction price if they have the guts to do it.

eBay's policy
 

BTW, here is an excerpt from eBay's shilling policy.

Policy overview

Shill bidding happens when anyone—including family, friends, roommates, employees, or online connections—bids on an item with the intent to artificially increase its price or desirability. In addition, members cannot bid on or buy items in order to artificially increase a seller's Feedback or to improve the item's search standing.

Make sure you follow these guidelines. If you dont, you may be subject to a range of actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account. Shill bidding is also illegal in many places and can carry severe penalties.

Review our shill bidding policy tutorial to learn more about this policy.


Reporting shill bidding

Learn more about reporting listing violations. If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our User Privacy Notice prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue.