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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />The last 3 times I went to Las Vegas, I won money at the craps table. But if you asked me whether I would win the next time I go up I would say probably not. Why. Because Vegas casinos were built based upon the simple fact that it is more likely that you will lose than win.<br /><br />The auction houses were built on the simple fact that they make money from the sale. Their reputation is based upon the high prices they obtain for consignors. If they continously returned items unsold to consignors they would be out of business pretty quickly. So why are you surprised that they would use deceptive practices in order to make a sale.<br /><br />That's like being surprised that casinos give away free drinks so that you would lose more. And all this time I thought they gave away free drinks because they were just being courteous...yeah right...and I have this bridge for sale.<br /><br />Grow up, people.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Peter, my mouth is agape at that attempt at an analogy. Literally agape.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>If meeting the reserve is the issue, why not eliminate book bidding and if the bidding stops short of the reserve, tell the high bidder what the reserve is at that point and ask if s/he wants to meet that reserve. If not, it goes unsold. It seems like a more straightforward way of doing it considering some bidders consider the activity of other bidders into their considerations of the value of an item.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Dave G</b><p>"...considering some bidders consider the activity of other bidders into their considerations of the value of an item."<br /><br />I think this statement is the key to the whole process......its not how much an item is really worth, it's who else is interested in it and why. Sadly in some major card auctions it clearly is not a truely knowledgable person bidding, but someone with money who will have it at all cost - especially if he doesn't want other specific people to have it.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Dave,<br />That is not what I meant, but it may be a factor. I was thinking about other auction houses where let's say I have bid $1000 on an item that I think is worth $1400. I am sitting on the siding waiting aand watching. While I am watching bids (on the internet - not a live auction), I see that it is bid up to $1600 by at least two other bidders going at it. No I may decide to place one more bid at $1700 with knowlege that at least two other real people are right under me, so I am not out of the ballpark in going for it at that price (since it is a tough card that I really want). So my consideration of value is based in part on what others are bidding as well. That does not imply ignorance or willingness to do whatever it takes because I have limitless money. It just is one factor that can be added to the consideration equation if I choose. But that cannot be added if the auction house engages in book bidding which can be deceptive in such a situation.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>I too am a bit surprised at that er ah um stretch <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />In fact as a degenerate gambler I am insulted. I wouldn't even go into an auction house......

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>In the end, no one here likes the process but the process is stated.<br /><br />Obviously, if it wasn't stated then everyone would be mad. As it is stated, only some are mad. I would put myself in the don't like process/not mad camp.<br /><br />For live auctions, with bidders in one room chatting with each other, I wonder if some of they auctioneer techniques are intended in part to counter bidder collusion. If you leave bidders in a room for a long enough time, secret alliances will be made.<br />

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>not mad. Just resolute. I'm also usually not affected by book bidding as I am but a small fish..... and the bigger fish don't seem to care.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I was just rounding my numbers for simplicity's sake. The official raw numbers tally is:<br /><br />7 mad<br />5 not mad, not happy<br />1 resolute<br />1 sleepy<br />1 itchy<br /><br />If the bottom three united, they'd hold a strong minority

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Sounds like Peter is comparing bidding at Sotheby's to shooting a game of craps.<br /><br />Given the potential risks of each, he may be on to something.

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>Of course, there was a Seinfeld episode where Elaine bid in a live Sotheby's auction. Someone's going to have to study that episode to see how the bidding was performed .... Interestingly, the lot she fictitiously won (JFK's golf clubs) was soon after won in the real Sotheby's auction by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Elaine's bid was portrayed as ridiculously high, yet Schwarzenegger paid many times more in real life.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>David- I actually brought that up in a recent thread...Elaine spent about 20K after a heated battle with Sue Ellen Mishkie, the braless wonder.<br /><br />The actual clubs sold for over a million dollars.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jeff, you might owe Peter an apology did anyone else get the same flyer in the mail???? <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/77.gif"><br /><br /><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/huge/vegas%20copy.jpg"><br /><br /><br />All joking aside Peter your analogy doesn’t work for me either….<br />

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Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>I'm not as high end as you, Barry. My favorite Sit Com is "The Bob Newhart Show," where the closest they came to a Sotheby's auction was was when Bob won a frozen turkey in the office raffle.

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>Do I love that magic pic of Festie's old assistant and NYC wonderkind holding up cards. Brian is da man (as he's said many times before <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>John, your art has been missed.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Very nicely done.....I am honored. BTW, at one of the Net54 dinners a waitress spilled ketchup on me and in return I got to be a beauty pageant judge that night.....This kind of goes hand in hand with that.. (or hand in something else if I don't watch out)......Those babes are babe-alicious.....regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>All those platinum blondes are beautiful...but that one in the back with glasses who looks like she needs a shave isn't so hot!

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Posted By: <b>mr. moses</b><p>that night I paid twice AND we paid an extra tip as all were too bombed to notice that the gratuity had already been added to the bill. Of course looking at breasts er ah beauties after spending a day on the floor at the National even Patrick Ewing would look good in a bathing suit....

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />I'm not really comparing casinos with auction houses. Casinos are for dummies like me...although I have won as much as $20,000 in one day...I won't tell you about the times I lost. Those days were not particularily fun.<br /><br />Going to an auction house is a more sophisticated form of gambling...but nevertheless it is a form of gambling. Let's say you bought the Gretzky T206 Wagner at an auction. There's no guarantee that the price of the card will go up in the future.<br /><br />Who knows a stupid book might come out and people will get disgusted with the hobby and the price of baseball cards will drop like a rock who knows.<br /><br />I'm not trying to discourage people from going to auctions. I'm just saying be disciplined when your at an auction. I certainly don't want my friends to feel ripped off when they walk out of the auction. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>"at one of the Net54 dinners a waitress spilled ketchup on me and in return I got to be a beauty pageant judge that night"<br /><br />Yeah, but it was a beauty pageant where they hold the National ... that's like being the toughest man in France. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>