How many of the Johnson and Ripken variants ( and which ones ) do you guys think were intended by the manufacturer (as opposed to unintended differences occurring in the printing process )
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eBay is flooded with a ton of counterfeit Bill Ripkens of all variations and has been for over a year. On both cards all the changes were intentionally done by Fleer. The printing process doesn't make alterations. Printing errors are way different that what went on with those 2 cards. |
what's weird to me is that you can find a marlboro johnson in a wax box, and then find a blacked out johnson in the same box. maybe that's just normal, or maybe the box had packs from a different box.
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Just weird. |
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Just hanging out with RJ... I couldn't resist taking a picture of this latest low tint pickup as I pulled it out of the envelope and viewed it in the sun light. Steve
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Cards look great Steve, I'll have to try that same thing!!!
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Maybe it is the lighting, but anyone else notice there is no "pube" showing on either of those cards?
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So what's the latest/highest known case code that a FF or Marlboro has come out of? I have a case from march of 89. |
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Any hints of the Marlboro were well gone before the FF was corrected. I would estimate late Nov 1988 and early Dec 1988 would be the best shot at the RJ variations.
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I've been trying to track down a PSA 10 of what I'd been calling the br2 version (and some call the second clearest version) for a long time in the BST section here. I was really excited to pick up a BGS 9.5 last week on EBay. Here is a picture of the card next to the clear one for comparison.
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No dot to the left and no red pube, if I am seeing it correctly... |
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The BGS 9.5 actually does have the pube (on lower left) and the red comma (on lower right), but it doesn't have a dot in the upper blue bar. I've seen this version both with and without the dot. My guess is that dot actually keeps some really nice PSA 9s from being graded 10s. |
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Three years after starting my chase for this card I finally found a relatively clear PSA 10, which has been my huge want card and what has kept me locked into eBay and buying all sorts of variations along the way.
Steve |
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https://i.postimg.cc/Jzy55Zkb/IMG-0681.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/5NKmzn64/IMG-0679.jpg
I don't think I've broken 1989 Fleer since 2009-2010 but this sunday at the Rose Bowl flea, I bought 9 loose packs (and a bunch of small, 80's boxed/grocery/oddball type sets) and pulled a green tint Randy after first pulling a Ripken FF. Probably haven't pulled either of those cards from a pack myself since 2004-05. Pretty incredible odds. |
Fantastic stuff, man. I've opened a lot of this stuff, and it never gets old...the feeling of either knowing you're going to pull one of these, or have good odds of doing so is still awesome.
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Hernandez is a neat variant card as well
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This was found in one of my fb groups. He just sent it express to psa. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...15d253f026.jpg
Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk |
WOW! Not seen one that clear before. :eek:
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i sent a few to PSA that all looked like marlboro ad on scoreboard to me, and they all came back obscured. pretty dumb when you find marlboros for sale that you can't see the sign at all. |
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No idea how it was pulled, but he listed it for 15k....
Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk |
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Talked to the seller this morning, and he claims the card sold.
He reached out to me Saturday morning and said it was officially on the market for $15K OBO. Crazy. |
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Awesome information and excited that another one of these turned up! Thank you Statfreak101 for the heads up on this. The week before last Statfreak101 told me about seeing this card raw in a FB group. He reached out to the person who posted the pic (a card shop owner) and found out "...it sounds like a guy brought in a collection from the 80s and 90s, and had 14 different 89 Fleer hand collated sets...and inside one of the sets was this card." I forwarded the message and picture of the ungraded card to Kevin and we both agreed that this looked exactly like our cards. I honestly spent the better part of that night trying to find the Facebook group on my own. Unfortunately, I am incompetent navigating FB and had no luck. I didn’t see the graded card until David posted the pic here. It is incredibly exciting. I wish I knew more. Were these some sort of first press run on the first day before a quality check process? Did some "fix" not make it on one of the lines at the start of the first day of production?
I agree with Hatorade that this new find reinforces the likelihood there are more of these out there. I believe this card has the staying power to be a very important card for those who love 1980s wax and crave something really scarce (of course I am biased). As I’ve mentioned before, this card and its many versions feel (at least to me) like an 80’s take on the parallels of modern collecting. The clear and blue versions are scarce in an absolute sense and hard to come by no matter how much you search – which is so much different from almost anything else from the junk wax era. Things are crazy now in all markets, but I think the fascination with this card will continue to grow as people who were kids in the 80s continue to build out their collections. I agree with Dylan that initial lack of demand for this card was likely due to lack of information on the versions and lack of knowledge about the relative scarcity. There is a learning curve for the card because searching "Randy Johnson Marlboro" on eBay returns tons of results… even though very few listings for the rarest versions come up (or stay up long). In thinking about this card and its many versions I keep going back to ideas of scarcity and available substitutes. In person the clear one is super rare (very scare) and in person there is a dramatic difference between it and any of the tinted/obscured versions (lack of substitutes). The closest you can get is putting very intense lighting on the sign in a br2 (as I’ve done in several posts last year) but even then, not really and in person no one would ever confuse the two. I guess the other possible substitute is the magnet with a picture of the clear version someone is selling on eBay (no that isn’t me… but it keeps getting suggested to me). The blue tint ones are the same way – in that they stand out visually among others. When I heard about this new clear one, I actually bought (2) unopened boxes of 1989 Fleer #83261 just on the off chance someone had picked up the card in a recent wax pull. Paid way too much but got caught up in the excitement! The absolute scarcity of the clear one makes it hard to assign a value. It’s no secret that I’ve toyed around with listing the card. Kevin can also vouch for me that over the last couple years I’ve offered him up to $15k for his clear one (sorry for being such a pest, Kevin). It is a strange card for sure. In that respect, I’m not surprised on the ask price. I read the book “The Card” last year and there are parallels to the chase for this and other urban legend cards (e.g., the 31 PSA graded examples of the T206 White Border Honus Wagner). Everyone has their own idea of what is valuable to them… my next "best" card in my collection is a 1990 Frank Thomas NNOF PSA 7.5. I would give that up in a heartbeat for even a PSA 4 of a clear Marlboro card. At the end of the day definitely take it all with a grain of salt as these are just my two cents. I have no idea why this card is still such a fascination to me but love the ride. Steve |
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If I ever end up pulling one of these out of a pack, I certainly hope someone is there with me to catch me when I fall over! :) |
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There should definitely be more out there some place. I wonder if there was ever/is a no tint at all version. |
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And of course the FF Ripken, too. |
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Excellent write-up Steve, I 100% agree with everything you said in there. These cards are unbelievably rare with the clear Marlboro, as now we know of only 3 clear versions. The Thomas NNOF gets all the pub; however, this card is far more scarce than that. Hopefully at some point, folks will realize that.
I am anxious to hear what the RJ looks like if you end up opening one of your very early Fleer boxes. Those are among the earliest date codes I've ever seen, and any RJ in the box will most certainly be some type of Marlboro version. As Dylan mentioned, these cards went through so many changes in such a short period of time, it puts all the Ripken changes to shame. This is what makes '89 Fleer so fun to collect though, the thought of hitting one of these ultra-rare '89 Fleer cards from a set which can be considered anything but rare. Not to take anything away from the Johnson cards, but those checklists with positions on front are incredibly scarce too. While nobody cares much, they are darn near impossible to find. |
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That's absolutely correct Dylan. I believe all the Johnson cards went through their changes long before the Ripken FF was ever first "corrected". Odds are there must be more clear versions out there, and they should be in the earliest dated boxes. I have opened a bunch of early Fleer, and different Johnson versions definitely appeared in the same case, similar to the Ripkens. The problem? The prices on old wax has skyrocketed, and at some point in the last 5 years, the amount of '89 Fleer unopened has dropped dramatically, despite the fact it was printed to the moon.
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So it is my understanding that Fleer had multiple correction types (plates) going simultaneously pretty much from day 1 (or day 2, I suppose) while altering/adjusting them up until the January change over to solid blackout background, correct? So theoretically, a clear version could possibly be pulled form a case containing some other correction types. Has anyone locked down the first date of production? |
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Personally, I have owned multiple 8326 cases (both sealed & unsealed) and ripped a ton of that run...it is very similar to the other case runs where the Johnson version varies. Pretty crazy, and I still have some FASC boxes of these in my possession. You just have to think there are more than 3 of these out there - just by chance. How they are out there, it is anyone's guess. Whether they are still sitting in unopened packs, or someone has one in their collection that they aren't even aware of, or in hand collated set...who knows. But I am 100% certain there are more out there. My hope is that with the finding of this latest one, it would possibly bring a couple more out in the wild. We will see! |
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I do also think there is almost zero chance that Fleer pressed and packed out just 10s of these. The rate in which the cards are printed and processed is very quick and a hundred or so would be a more accurate estimate if caught "immediately" by Fleer. Given the fact that sealed cases have been turning up and the vast number of hand collated sets from 1989 to now sitting in attics, closets, storage, etc, I think we will see more of them. Even is 100-200 copies exist, that is a microscopic supply against the entire production run. Also, I'll say that my primary interest in the card is eventually locking down which correction attempts were produced for the shortest period of time. There have to be a few that only ran for a shift or day, max. |
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I do know these card are next to impossible to get a great pic/scan of, at least for me any way. As for being rare what is the current known blue tint count? Back when I was hoarding them the green scribbles seemed to be the rarest. Now there seems to be a lot more of them around. To me there was 3 different green scribble versions. I think I came up with around 18-20 different versions total. The only new one I have seen since then is the blue tint. The 89 Fleer set had some great errors. The Boggs no dot is my favorite and seems to be in the silly rare category. |
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I don't know if all of the pictures show up clearly enough on this site. So you can better see my clear card I just posted a pic on mySlabs. For reference I also posted one of my blue ones. I like that site because it lets you have very high definition images. I'm not seriously in the market to sell either of these at any reasonable price (and I know you have higher graded blue ones that I do) but the site makes you include some price for a card to show up. Here is the link to cards I have up (I'm not sure how to get a link for one particular card): myslabs.to/woodstock2 In person the background of the clear sign has a patchwork of subtle colors in it. It reminds me of some of the old laptop screens or even TVs. I agree there is some light distortion but believe it was part of the original photo of RJ in front of the sign and not after-the-fact tint. Maybe it has to do with the refresh rates of the older electronic billboard signage. I remember as a kid trying to take pictures of things on a TV or laptop and the pictures would show up with these strange color streams. This reminds me of that. To my eyes there is some light pinkish red, some yellowish white, and some bluish green. In the blue version the top of the cowboy's hat is part in and part out of the layer of blue tint. I don't see this on my clear one. In the clear version the entire cowboy's hat appears to me to be un-tinted. Even looking at the br2 one I posted on mySlabs (PSA #47414199) when you zoom in there is a distinct horizontal transition line that cuts across the top of the cowboy's hat that isn't there as far as I can see on the clear one. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be so that is why I put the pics up so you can judge for yourself. I hope this helps. |
This is a fascinating thread!
To be honest, I've relegated most of cards from this era to boxes for my son to sort through or even donated. But it's great to see this serious research and attention to these cards. I absolutely love it. Good work! |
Steve, in regards to the blue tint version - how noticeable is/was this card/tint to the naked eye before you really dissected it and noticed the difference in tint?
I only ask because I have a mountain of these and want to know if I need to go through them to see. |
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I've always thought the "blue" version was more green in my opinion. It just seems to be a lighter shade of green without any black scribble obstruction, when compared to the version commonly labeled "green scribble". Or, turquoise as Ben says, I would agree with that too. I believe junkwaxgems.com shows pretty much all the different versions I've ever owned/seen, as does Steve's photo gallery.
For those interested, the Treadway targets were not early corrections, these appeared randomly relatively early after the Ripken was first corrected. These were not very early errors. I also do not believe the checklists with positions were extremely early errors. These also seem to be some random type variety, but I'm not sure what point they came in the print run. The Boggs is not terribly scarce, the version without the black dot on the reverse can be commonly found in later print runs, well after other errors were corrected. |
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If the bold part is true it is news to me. I have been hoarding them since I pack pulled one back in the day. I have only ever seen 11 total and own 7 of them. Yes I know there are 2 on eBay. One is listed by a great guy but he prices things so high Deans pricing seems like a bargain basement giveaway box. The other seller more than doubled their price when I made what I consider a reasonable offer. |
Hi Ben, as I was mostly trying to open early runs, I mostly stayed away from the later print runs (if codes were known). I know I hit many Boggs, but I did not really place them aside as he wasn't someone I was looking for. Certainly, they are far scarcer without the print dot than with, but I know I have many of them sitting somewhere in my common bins. The same applies to Kevin Romine - his card was corrected very late in the print run, so there are far fewer corrected Romine's available than the original error showing Randy Kutcher batting.
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I most definitely will Ben, now that I know you're looking for these.
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The blue count is right around 5 I think. I’ve included a couple more images of the blue box card I mentioned earlier. They aren’t the greatest quality, but in hand the card is almost a royal blue and yet with any decent source of light you can easily read the lettering in Marlboro as no editing is done specifically to the lettering like the other versions and there is no bubble. Quote:
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