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I am simply saying I will continue to bid because they get the best stuff and I think others will too. |
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I can't stand dishonest people and this guy is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He says we have to be careful in this hobby then says he laughs at people for being careful in this hobby. Seems legit.
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So if you decide to stop or not start doing business with someone bc you believe they engage in conduct detrimental to the "hobby," you are "self-righteous" because there has always been misconduct going on?
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No trolling. I just think you guys are fooling yourselves if somehow boycotting PWCC is going to save you. If PWCC goes down the consignments will flow elsewhere and the process starts all over. |
Isn't anyone free to expose hobby fraud? You want others to do the work for you? PWCC, PSA and BGS have been outed. It's not on everyone else to expose others. Seems like you are just deflecting.
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At least among the major players. |
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No one is happy about this situation. I got smart to the hobby years ago and realize it isn't perfect. |
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KthanksBye |
Guy's got a huge PSA collection. No wonder he's running shadow interference/deflection. Many of the nay-sayers are just people with huge investments in PSA/BGS, have spent a ton with PWCC and are just here to protect their investments.
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I don't agree with Dave obviously on some of this but the attacks on him are unfair. He's a good man in my opinion. His point of view is that fraud is pervasive so if you want to keep collecting at all, it isn't rational just to selectively cut off the fraudster of the day, you have to be careful everywhere. I get that.
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To participate just like you. It seems the only opinion that is allowed is I won't do business with PWCC. I am one of the collectors who simply will look at all cards that come for sale. |
By telling us he's laughing at us for having principles? Great guy.
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This is exactly what I am getting at. |
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I laughed at the idiots who burned Nike apparel and the idiots who threw away expensive razor blades too. |
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Does anyone else see that this guy is essentially saying ignore people who commit fraud, just buy cards anyway. lol Great guy seems legit. A I expected to take this seriously?
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His (Diogenes) father minted coins (Huigens antique shop) for a living, and Diogenes was banished from Sinope (PSA) when he took to debasement of currency (trimming and shaving edges lessening value) yet was searching for an honest man ( writing up tenets) Bit of stretch...ok maybe a need a break from the drama |
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Due to a new job and moving from MD to AL, I haven't posted much in the past couple of years. Only 420 (ha...nice!!) posts in the past 6.5 years. Although I have still been actively collecting/buying.
I both purchased from and consigned to PWCC in the past. I did VERY well with my consignments. I do not buy anywhere close to high-end/graded cards and while I still collect modern, I don't even pay attention to graded modern stuff. That concept doesn't even make sense to me. Look, I have defended PWCC in the past but only when the accusations were just shilling. I knew that shilling had some effect on the prices realized but that was a problem with the eBay format as a whole. I thought factors such as having auctions every month that spanned pre-war to modern in all sports, being able to combine shipping and not having to pay until auction close, and being able to set snipes and not having to stay up all night/early morning to see if you won, all played into the prices people were willing to pay. I still believe all of that by the way. However, I answered this poll that I won't buy from or consign to PWCC again and I won't. They should have to pay some serious consequences for their role in this fraud scandal but I'm skeptical. I probably won't buy from Probstein either and I may just be done buying pre-war from eBay altogether. I may actually be done with PSA too. I don't need any "hard" evidence to make up my own mind that PSA is involved with all this shady stuff. Somebody got paid off I'm sure of it. So, where does that leave me? Do I only buy SGC? I like Al's response to all of this, so do I only buy from LOTG? I don't know what to do yet. I'm pretty pissed off but I am not naive. I knew this stuff was going on since I was a kid in the early 80's. There were rumors about my local card shop owner trimming cards back then. And even though Gary/and all card "doctors" are really to blame for this, the thing that pisses me off the most is how PSA spends 10 seconds "examining" a card, slaps a b.s. grade on it, charges way too much, and somehow most people (including me) consider them the experts in the field. Ha....I think I just talked myself into being done with PSA and maybe even graded cards in general. Life is too short. I got back into this hobby for fun and I am going to return to that. I'll keep my pre-war collection in tact and enjoy it when I can. I'll still enjoy buying raw modern cards and keeping up with the hobby as well. I'll stay connected with my favorite teams (Pirates, Steelers, Penguins) through this hobby but will not consider it a financial investment ever again. It's just cardboard, right. |
Some collect cards. Some collect slabs. Pwcc is a great source for slabs. If that's what you're into, it makes perfect sense to continue doing business with them. I get it.
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This message is to recognize that Peter Spaeth has contributed mightily to this thread...more than any human should be expected to contribute.
He is obviously very passionate about the subject and I do hope that he gets some resolution for his efforts. That's Peter 46 posts - everyone else - 145. Totals shared by someone who, evidently, has nothing better to do...which is fairly pathetic. :) |
The way I see it is that PWCC has been knowingly selling cards to a known card doctor & then reselling the doctored cards for him, many times over. Somehow PSA is unable to catch this doctoring.
There are people here who could care less. Do I have that right? |
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Also, I feel there is some discrepancy in which Moser's altered cards were actually consigned by him directly, or if they were cards won by Moser at the direction of PWCC to be resold just 3 months later |
I have never consigned anything to PWCC and looking back at my records for the last 4 years, I see that I have only bought from PWCC 4 times in that span. I'm strictly a Mantle, Post cereal collector so there aren't a whole lot of items that I'm interested in.
But, I will not be buying from PWCC anymore. In fact I started yesterday. PWCC had a Mantle item I was interested in and had in my watch list. It ended at a price slightly less than what I would have put in for my maximum. PWCC didn't lose much by me not bidding and I know boycotting them won't have much affect on them. But, based on the email Peter provided regarding Brent's acknowledgment of Moser and what Moser does to cards plus Brent's attempt to redefine alterations in order to whitewash his activities, my opinion is that Brent is dishonest and I refuse to do business with people that I have reason to believe are dishonest. |
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It was a win win for both of them. Higher graded/nicer cards for PWCC brought the $$$ and the popularity that Dpeck admires so much, and Moser made out like a bandit. I also wouldn't be surprised if Brent Mastro took a share of the winnings Moser made selling his doctored cards but who knows what agreement they had in place between them? How anyone could continue to support these types of people is doing nothing to help the hobby but, blindly to them, are damaging it further. Greed is what caught PWCC and Moser and Greed will be what sinks the people who continue to support them when this hobby grinds to a halt or has a huge correction. :( |
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I don't pretend to know what is right I just know that cards change hands outside of PWCC that could just as easily change hands through them. There is no magic formula to completely avoid fraud in the sports collectibles hobby. It exists. You do the best you can. Everyone is at different point in their collection. It is easier for someone with few graded cards to say the hell with the hobby. I have a lot so naturally I hope the hobby moves forward. I just believe that there is no perfect way to completely insulate yourself from issues and cutting off the main source of highly collected trading cards is a lot tougher than many think. |
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Also, based on what appears to have been going on I would not agree that the same level of risk exists everywhere. |
I just hope that people here and at the PSA forum who choose to continue buying from PWCC don't come back in the future to complain that they were cheated, scammed or shilled by PWCC or a card they won from PWCC turns out to be deceptively described/identified.
But, of course, I know will happen. |
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Forbes
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So call BS all you want.:) |
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I think that at the end of the day what we are going to see is that even a lot of the people who "know" don't care. As long as the slab maintains its "air" of legitimacy and can be conveyed in a subsequent transaction if desired - nothing to see here. Give the people what they want. A lot of people have made a lot of money doing just that. |
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And yeah, there is no question a lot of people don't care. The flip sanitizes. |
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Is there risk everywhere? Yes Is it the same level of risk at every source? No. You have one AH that has been proven to deal with altered material at a much higher rate than every other AH. At least to date that is what the evidence shows. So it ain't noble to stop bidding. It's just prudent. Now are you right that when folks stop bidding at PWCC, this stuff will just turn up in other AHs? Yes, I think you are. But that isn't the world we live in today. In the world today, there is a different level of risk buying from PWCC than other AHs. |
If the colonists had only consigned their tea to PWCC, requiring buyers to store it in the vault, according to the tenets, the Boston Tea Party could have been averted. Now that’s a revolutionary idea. Enjoy your tea.
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But I would hardly label PWCC as "the fraudster of the day". Fraudster of the decade is certainly a more accurate moniker. The breadth of deception documented on the BO threads dwarfs anything else we've seen. And that's just focused on the alterations... the shill bidding (and PWCC's justification of doing so) is a whole different subject. |
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So let me get this straight. From what I read you think that the other auction houses would have declined some of these bigger vintage cards. Is this correct? I fall on the side that they would have accepted them and so many of these cards can be sold anywhere. They have over 8,000 listings this auction. That is a ton of cards. Many of the cards that have been sold in their auctions turn over again somewhere else. |
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Mastro's packaging was also by far "best in class". 10 - 12 years ago, everyone here raved endlessly about their wonderful packaging and the fancy paper. A very nice diversion tactic. :rolleyes: |
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You said that risk of fraud exists everywhere. I agree. It does. But not at the same level. In the world we live in today, one (and only one) source has been identified for selling altered material. Have other sources done it? Sure, I bet they have. But there is a large body of evidence against one AH, and no significant body of evidence against the others. To say the risk is the same from both sources is flat out wrong. |
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I don't pretend to know Brent's outcome but if he were a stock I still would be betting its going up. PWCC core business is untouchable. The problem is all of the directions they are going in and time will tell how it plays out. I have spent less than $1,000 dollars in their auctions and have never once consigned an item. I just won't restrict myself for the so called greater good. I do like the fact that the transactions I have had all went extremely smoothly and this is the norm so not hard to figure out why they get so many repeat buyers. |
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No. You obviously don't understand how risk works. The same cards can be sold anywhere so the risk is just the same. So many cards trade on the private market that could have gone to PWCC or were on their way. At the National this year there will be many cards that were bought through PWCC auctions I would bet. |
Dave- Would you feel different if you had purchased a $2,000. card that had a before & after picture confirming alterations?
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You can assume and believe whatever you want, just as we all can. And it may turn out that more of the cards sold on PWCC were altered than those sold other places. But to say that's been proven at this point is flat out wrong. |
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I could buy an altered card from anyone. I look at PWCC as more of a stock exchange at this point. I think that is their ultimate goal. Please don't confuse me brushing off fraud as part of the game as suggesting it isn't repulsive. It is. I just am saying that you can't just quit buying from the seller that dominates the market because they have sold some questionable cards. I got a great deal on the last $20 purchase I made. I am willing to buy from anyone if I like the cards. I think people are underestimating how large of a percentage of $0.99 EBAY auctions PWCC represents. |
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Your vast contributions to this topic and this forum are much appreciated, and you are far more diplomatic than most of us will ever be... If the PWCC evidence of corruption doesn't dwarf anything else we've seen, I honestly cannot think of what beats it. Maybe Operation Bullpen, where the FBI exposed the Marino Family? But this case isn't nearly put to bed! On BO, they are continuing to unearth new examples every day, with no end currently in sight.... Often to the tune of 5-figures PER CARD. The Marinos were creating fake Mantles that sold for a couple hundred bucks each. That's chump change compared to what's being exposed as we speak. |
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Okay, it seems I need to dumb this down for you. You're going to spend $10K on merchandise (say a used car instead of a baseball card). Who do you buy from? Someone who might be a thief or someone who has been arrested for theft? If you truly think the risk of being defrauded is the same from both sources - there are a lot of people who want your name and phone number. |
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Haha No need to dumb anything down for me. Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Topps-...kAAOSwQ8xc9owy You either plug your nose and bid or give up on your collection. I would bid. |
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254,471 cards submitted from this set. Lots of dedicated collectors. |
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People have to understand there are so many dedicated collectors to various sets. When you look at the registry for this set Charles Merkel is number one. Maybe he will pass. At this time there are twenty complete sets. Perhaps a few pass but someone will step up to the plate. At last check there were 14 bidders and 33 watchers so it is definitely attracting attention. |
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Some will and some won't. Many wouldn't before so time will tell how many who currently will won't. I don't think many will be able to say no. |
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Edit: EBAY listing showing it appears the photo is out of focus. https://www.ebay.com/itm/RICH-HEBNER...ddf11bd6bb7122 |
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People to choose to spend their money on different shit. Charles Merkel is loaded. If you look at his set it is filled with 10's. I choose to spend money on wrestling cards. Something most don't. My wife likes ridiculously expensive shoes and purses. Many would argue both are dumb ways to spend your money but to each their own. Who knows if he is even bidding but judging by the fact there are now 15 bidders this card isn't flying under the radar that is for sure. |
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The registry was brilliant. I have paid 2k for a $2 card. Haha |
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There are two sources of risk in this potential transaction - and you have only identified one of them. The first - the risk that the item is altered. Yes, that is a risk no matter the source. You have identified this correctly. The second - there is risk from the seller themselves. Some sellers are dishonest. Some are not. Can a honest seller make a mistake and do something dishonest? Sure. But your chances of that happening are smaller than the risk you face with dealing with someone who is known for altering merchandise. So to claim the two are equal risk (including both factors - instead of just your one factor) is factually and logically wrong. And since the central and original question was - would you buy from PWCC in the future? The first risk is irrelevant in that decision making process as that risk is the same regardless of the seller (as YOU pointed out). Therefore only the second risk matters in answering this question. So once again you have factually and logically answered the question incorrectly. Which you are free to do - just don't expect people to take what you say seriously if you can't think things through. |
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