That Jasson Dominguez card at 474k is another mind-blowing sale, if real. The older I get, the more I find myself despising the modern card game— because that is what it is, just a get rich quick game that caters to the same adrenaline junkie vibe as gambling. 474k for a card of a kid who has never played, and is in the system of a team (one I root for) that can't develop talent to save their lives. Look what the Yanks have done in terms of developing prospects like Andujar, Bird, Frazier, and the baseball abomination that is Gary Sanchez. And some of those guys even showed flashes of excellence at the major league level. I could have that one Dominguez card or my entire collection. Makes zero sense to me.

PWCC premiere auction just opened, a Joe Borough RPA 1 of 99 is at $100k. The 1925 Lou Gehrig Exhibits Rookie SGC 3 is at $13k…. Makes a ton of sense to me

Even better, since I made this about Doncic- this card, not even an auto or piece of memorabilia is more than double a Gehrig Rookie. I can’t wait for the bottom to drop out

Leave the Doncic. Take the Gehrig.

https://images.ctfassets.net/23wh7e5...ive&w=900&q=50

I think that this entire thread is hilarious.

Yes, for your personal collection you would rather have the vintage…as would I. However, we need to understand that a huge percentage of the modern collectors are not necessarily in it for the collection and see it as investment much like stock. Also, like stocks the safe money would take a blue chip with likely consistency let’s say a 52 Mantle. A huge drop can be thought to be unlikely in the short term, but also in retrospect a huge gain of giant percentage is unlikely to outpace the modern money. While the value grew over the past several years the percentage was greater in modern.

We need to realize that while we envy those that can buy a 475g half a Wagner, we somehow get upset that someone spends a million on a Trout because we would not. Your jealousy does not determine value, demand does. The modern market dwarfs our prewar like the sun vs. Mars. There is no comparison, it’s not a rivalry. Card shows having 2 vintage tables and 50 modern is not a conspiracy. It’s business following the money. Let’s be happy that new blood is in the hobby and not tell them to get off your lawn. While yes it is high risk investment, it is high value return at times. They know the risk.

I would definitely take that Doncic over that Gherig

The Godfather
 

It took me a few seconds - and a second sip of coffee - but then I got it. Excellent grin-producing graphic for me on a cold Michigan morning. Thanks!

You can have it. I definitely would not. But that’s the beauty of this country, (at least for now), each to their own.

No dog in the fight, but noticed Doncic is on the cover of NBA 2022 for x box. Pretty popular player if that's happening.

Not casting negativity, but just pointing out an observation. I would guess that a likely 100% of collectors who misspell Gehrig would take the Doncic. It just leans to true interest, much like there is a good chance that if you know how to properly pronounce Lajoie, you are most likely the one of the few that would stop at a show to look at his card. This applies all ways, much like Ryan misspelled Joe Burrow's name, who is a 2nd year QB in the Super Bowl with more awards in the past 5 years than Meryl Streep in a lifetime. All these players are amazing, but most people naturally have interests they place at the top of the walk and dismiss out of pocket anything against that grain.

We should all be able to collect what you want and should get no flak for it...enjoy!

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000............ ........................


(Disclaimer: As long as it breaks no laws and is legal, and hurts or harms no one!)

Ironically, the one name everyone has spelled right is Doncic, which to me would be the most difficult of the three.

This is a great post. Classic that we both misspelled the player we were discounting. Point well taken.

Really trying to break myself from saying Lajoy. If I can give the French courtesy to Rudy Gobert I can certainly give it to Nap.

I am not sure most of modern is "collecting." Are there modern card buyers who actually collect? Sure. But the more I see in modern, the more it seems to me, on the whole, like a get rich quick game, something akin to gambling, for adrenaline junkies. So while both realms are comprised of cards, in modern it seems like far more of the buyers are buying solely to flip to the next man, as opposed to buying for a collection. Gambling in that sense is fine, just hanging a lantern on how it seems like it is a totally different ecosystem and culture, despite how both revolve around cards.

This has been such a cyclical thing since the junk wax era. I recall reading hobby press commentary 20-30 years ago about the modern investor-gambler mentality creeping so far down into the kids that they were so about the hits rather than the cards that they were leaving 'worthless' commons on tables at shows right after buying them. Today's version of it is on steroids. I'd never have thought you could sell a product that was essentially nothing but hits and have it go over well or that you could pull a card out of a pack depicting a youngster and have it skyrocket past superstar HOFers before the kid has any accomplishments. I understand chasing a touted rookie. That's time honored. But the rate of appreciation is unprecedented. No wonder idiots are beating each other to get at the retail packages.

https://youtu.be/NygeaRLnAYE

That's one of the, if not the, main things about Breakers, it's all about the hits. Just think how boring it would be for them to only ever open up boxes of base set cards where they're mostly going to be just common players. The people hosting the Breaks can only provide so much faux enthusiasm or Harry Caray imitations, to keep the audience amused and interested otherwise.

It will definitely be interesting to see if Fanatics continues long-term to produce card products that are primarily and more or less exclusively targeted for Breakers and their patrons.

People certainly are strange.

I'm convinced if we all had access to a foolproof flash forward information engine, and found out that in 3 years time a Joe Shlabotnick Rookie card was going to be worth $5000...within a week that card would be trading at $15,000 with no ceiling in sight, and traders jockeying for position on when to short the card.

Probably why I find modern breaks so uninteresting. Buncha card queens going ape$hit over something that has no meaning to me.

In the end, we’re all just paying money for cardboard pictures of dudes


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Actually it is even worse than that. We are older men paying money for pictures of young athletic men in uniforms.:eek::D

Some collectors have different tastes...

Mr Colon is younger and in way better shape than a lot of us.:D

I actually have a couple younger friends that I knew through a place I used to work at that are fairly well-known Breakers. I even went along and helped them one year at the National in Chicago, in the Breakers pavilion the whole time. They (Breakers) aren't entirely as bad as you make them out to be, but they definitely have to try and keep interest and enthusiasm up during the breaks. They obviously don't want to come across to their patrons and customers as putting down most of the cards they open up as the not-so-valuable-crap that a lot of it really is. And they do have to play up to people to keep them coming back. For example, the one friend who does most all of the on camera work and talking, he is known for his Harry Caray impressions while doing breaks. Whatever it takes to help keep people entertained and interested.

They're sports AND business minded guys though, so they aren't really big into collecting themselves, just in doing something sports related they can make a profit at. And they do make a profit. Not my kind of collecting though. I'm not much into modern manufactured rarities. So in that respect, I'm much more like you.

we only give the flack because we all know how it ends. badly for the doncho. he ain't no Zeon fat slob china doll. even trout is a bum. Dave Kingman has more homers in his prime. Mike Kingman- 1 million $$$$. aqua, chrome refracto, flash. kaboom prizm orange 1 of 1 paralleled BASE.

Nobody says you have to like what others collect. Besides, I'd rather they're all fighting over all this new modern crap. Means less competition for the pre-war stuff I'm after. LOL

There is a hockey player on the Tri City Americans with the last name Lajoie, that people pronounce Lajoy. And I wonder if the player knows everyone is mispronouncing his name and doesn't care? At some point collecting every single individual is a losing battle.

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I collect. But you are correct. My modern Reds cards are seriously worthless other than a handful, but sellers are asking ungodly amounts, even if it is just $5.... for Akiyama! He hasn't hit a HR since he came to MLB.

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Well, shucks. It didn't take long for the data to come in on that prediction Bobby "I lied about my real name during registration and tried to scam someone in the B/S/T forums" Strawberry.

ESPN just conducted a survey with 15 of the league's execs to see who they thought was the best young point guard in the NBA. 11 of the 15 execs chose Luka as their 1st pick. Looks like I was wrong about saying they would "all" choose Luka, as 4 of the 15 chose Morant. Nobody chose Trae Young, although a few idiots did pick Trae over Morant as their 2nd choice, and one imbecile had Morant with his 4th pick. Nobody had Luka lower than 2nd. However, as I prophesied earlier, he was the top choice and no, it wasn't close.

As for your prediction that "Every GM in the league would take Morant over Luka given the choice."... ya, that one sorta fell flat.

11-4. You lose. I'm shocked.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...floor-generals

This post is a new low, even for you. I'm not sure the reason for your obsession with me, but let's get a few things straight:

1. You are way out of line posting false claims about a Net54 member with whom you've never had any dealings, or even a single conversation outside of one basketball thread debate.

2. We were in fact both wrong about how GMs view Ja and Luka. What is the point of rehashing this month-old discussion?

3. On another thread, you claimed to have put me on your ignore list. I suggest you go back to that, as I have no interest in engaging with you in any way whatsoever.

Have a great night.

When I worked for Yngwie (pronounced Ing-Vay) Malmsteen (pronounced Malmsteen) more people asked me how to spell Malmsteen than Yngwie.

Lol. It's time to use the "ignore" function on toxic, negative board members! (Not talking about you.)

The only problem with blocking some of the morons is you will miss some hilariously funny stuff.:D

Not necessarily true. When someone else quotes a poster you have on Ignore, their post does appear in the Quoter's post, usually reminding you why you put that other person on your Ignore list to begin with. :D

Mavericks are 7-9 this season without Luka.
Grizzlies are 13-2 without Morant.
Mavericks with Luka have a better record than Grizzlies with Morant despite the Grizzlies having the otherwise far superior roster.

Steven A. Smith is unaware of these facts.

I officially regret that I ever started this thread. Please let it die. Very few people on the PRE WAR NASEBALL part of Net54 give a rat's ass about Luca Doncic or Ja Morant, let alone who is better. And I bet zero people on the PRE WAR BASEBALL board have interest in following this feud.

Please just let the topic and the thread die, at least on the Pre War Baseball board.

Thanks

Nobody is forcing you to read it. If you're no longer interested in the topic, then why are you reading it?

There is a thread discussing Luka Doncic which has migrated into Luka vs Ja Morant. It is a topic that is widely discussed in the basketball world. I'm a basketball fan. Much more so than a baseball fan, though I do love both. It's a topic I'm interested in. I think Luka is better. I'm simply pointing out why. Just because you started the thread, it doesn't mean you get to dictate when others have to stop posting in it. If the admins wish to move this thread into the basketball forums, that's fine. But I can't control that.

Being a 20-something t206 collector, I find I do not have the typical collecting habits of my generation. From my perspective, the "manufactured" scarcity of modern cards completely cheapens the hobby. T206 cards, and all vintage cards for that matter, intrigue me because their value is determined by external limiting factors on a mass produced product that was never intended to be scarce. Age, wear and tear, poor storage practices, and historical significance (as OP mentioned) are what drives the desirability and therefore value.

For the modern card counterpart, a card manufacturer can change the printing settings and slap a x/10 on the card, and it seems like we are just expected to assign the same desirability. One seems organic, the other feels like I am getting duped into a profit taking scheme.

Less than 15 years ago, I was spending my allowance money to buy the latest /20 jersey relic card for $50. Those same cards are worth $3 today. I have a hard time believing cards that have the same basic components 15 years later, with prices that have inflated 10,000%, will ever retain their value as well as vintage...but I guess we will see.

[QUOTE=drazz5;2206326]Being a 20-something t206 collector, I find I do not have the typical collecting habits of my generation. From my perspective, the "manufactured" scarcity of modern cards completely cheapens the hobby. T206 cards, and all vintage cards for that matter, intrigue me because their value is determined by external limiting factors on a mass produced product that was never intended to be scarce. Age, wear and tear, poor storage practices, and historical significance (as OP mentioned) are what drives the desirability and therefore value.

For the modern card counterpart, a card manufacturer can change the printing settings and slap a x/10 on the card, and it seems like we are just expected to assign the same desirability. One seems organic, the other feels like I am getting duped into a profit taking scheme.

Less than 15 years ago, I was spending my allowance money to buy the latest /20 jersey relic card for $50. Those same cards are worth $3 today. I have a hard time believing cards that have the same basic components 15 years later, with prices that have inflated 10,000%, will ever retain their value as well as vintage...but I guess we will see.[/QUOTE

Thank you for an on-topic post.

Regarding manufactured rarity, we are Badgers, and a few months ago my 13 year old son got (or I bought him) a 2020 Pannini Red Wave, auto, Jonathan Taylor rookie (I hope I said that right). He is into modern and I love that he is interested in cards and I want to do stuff with him so I indulged, especially a Badger. So the other day I started to contemplate what if we did a “color run” in that card? We looked up what would constitute a color run and it made no sense. There are like 10 different, but that’s just the start. There are many different other colors and versions based on which boxes you are opening. All in all, if you got every available card in that pose (from all the different boxes that could have that pose), it would be like 40 of them. Several are red, but one is wave and one is cracked ice and one is prizim, same with blue and green. And some have signatures and some dont. Some are 1 of 1s or 1 of 5 bc they are gold or black and bc it says it on the back. Some are camouflage and are worth more than signatures bc the cami is rarer (despite no auto). But anyway you slice it, there are many variations of that Jonathan Taylor pose - same pic, just different color, or auto, or limited edition (number on back). The pose is hardly rare. In fact, it’s super common. The rarity is the color, or background, or number.

Admittedly, the t206 Cobb pose is on different cards, as is the case with many of the Horner portraits and/or early cards (e107 has many same poses as t206, w600, etc and e92 has same poses as e101-106 and t216 etc). So I concede that even my beloved prewar uses the same poses over and over. But for some reason I can follow that but get lost looking at 2020 Jonathan Taylor cards.

[QUOTE=Rhotchkiss;2206401]Agreed, what a perfect example. As a side note, I was piddling around the PSA registry today and came across what I would assume is your set. Beautiful collection! Congrats on 100%.

While Morant is again sidelined due to another injury (knee), the Grizzlies continue to demolish every other team in the league. They just beat the Bucks, with a healthy Giannis, by 25 points the night before last. Tonight, they're up 63 to 37 over the Warriors at halftime.

All this talk about how Morant single-handedly turned them into a top team is hilarious. The soon to be 18-2 Morantless Grizzlies are the best team in the league when Morant isn't on the floor. That 90% win rate drops to 62.5% when he's out there (35-21). Again, don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some Ja Morant, but I'm getting really sick of this narrative about him being the reason for the Grizzlies' success this season. He's an absolutely electric player and so much fun to watch. But he's also a considerable defensive liability. Not as bad defensively as Trae Young (who just so happens to be the worst defensive player in the past 40+ years, literally), but he is certainly a below average defender.

I was asking my son if Ja Morant was still good. He said he is still good but after the gun incident nobody likes him. Then I started to wonder how his cards are doing and I remembered this thread and I saw this quote/ statement. Still accurate?

Also, it’s a fun reread. How has Doncic’s major rookie cards held up against the 52 Mantle over the past 2.5 years since I started this thread? My gut is the Mantle has done much much better than Doncic over the past 2.5 years.

I think Bobby's words are as true now as they were 2 1/2 years ago.

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Cursory examination of recent eBay auctions has the Doncics in the $10-$20k range and the Mantles in the $25-$50k range. I'm not sure in either case if these are the same ones that were going for low-mid 6-figures a couple of years. ago

The OP compared the early 2022 auction prices of a 2018 Luca Doncic National Treasurers RPA to 99 graded BVG 9.5 to a 1952 Topps Mantle PSA 7. At that time, a Doncic was at auction in PWCC and sitting at $280k before Buyers Premium and a Mantle being sold in the same auction was at $240k before Buyers Premium.

Looking on Ebay, Fanatics Collect (whatever that is) has the same exact Donci card discussed above as available for sale for $85,000. That is literally 25% of what it was at, with Buyer's premium, in January 2022. Wow, 75% reduction, and that's just asking price. My gut is at auction it sells for even less, which frankly, it should as I dont see why its worth more than $!0k.

Meanwhile, the last sale of a PSA 7, 1952 Topps Mantle, and the only 2024 example in VCP, was for $264k, which is the average of two late 2023 sales. While this is way down from a high of $468k in late 2022 (45%), its only down 8% from where it was in January 2022 (with BP) when the thread was started.

Bottom line, and I think we all know this: Doncic has completely crashed since early 2022 and, while 1952 Topps Mantle is down since that time, it has held up monumentally better than Doncic. Conclusion -- Mantle over Doncic 100 out of 100 times.

As for Morant vs Doncic...... I dont care; I only collect dead baseball players who were played before my grandparents were born

Aside from the obvious supply and demand explanation, it's simple. The same reason Rocket Lab's stock has been going crazy lately - speculation. While you may think Luka has done "nothing", he won ROTY and has been All-NBA 1st team every year since. The list of people to have done that is very small. Maybe just Duncan? I know LeBron and MJ didn't - they also didn't win a ring until they were 27 so there's a lot of time for Luka to add to his resume.

There were a few PSA 8 Mantles that went for over 2M back in 2021 and one of these cards sold again last year for 1.1M - ouch! :eek::eek:
Some dude bought a PSA 9 in 2021 for over 5M, and based on what happened to the 8, he'd probably lose millions if he sold today.

Another thing we have to look at here is ROI. Even before the pandemic, 99% of us couldn't afford to buy a 52T Mantle. Who had over 100k lying around for a PSA 7? But a Doncic NT or Mahomes NT or Curry NT or LeBron Exquisite RPA, etc. was doable. If you bought any of these modern cards back then for 5k or 10k or even 20k, and you were to sell today, then your ROI is gonna' be much better (compared to buying a PSA 7 Mantle for 120k and selling for double today).

100% Truth

I strongly disagree. In fact, I would wager good money that there isn't a single GM in the entire league that would take Morant over Doncic, given the choice. Not one.

He also carried a mediocre team to the NBA Finals last year.

Hah. Bobby's comments were 0% true 2 1/2 years ago and still 0% true today. 0=0. Equally as true.

What I found surprising was just a staggering amount of dollars being thrown at modern. Whether it was a good investment or not.

(And of course, all of us original old vintage gangsters see modern investments as mostly silly and insane. - let’s all admit we’re extremely biased).

But seeing the sheer volume of dollars being spent on a Justin Herbert rookie gave me great hope that there’s tremendous upside in true vintage rarities and iconic cards because historically we just hadn’t seen that kind of dollars being spent on a regular basis until the modern insanity kicked in

So please let them continue to love the modern world and spend tens of millions of dollars or maybe hundreds of millions of dollars so that one day when they wise up they can come down to the vintage world and we can all profit handsomely

I bought an Iverson rookie insert for my son 5 years ago for $133. in 2021 it shot up to over $1000, with one goofy sale on 2/15/21 of $3888. This year the prices have settled down and are in the $400s. The basketball market has been a wild ride.

LeBron Topps Chrome rookies have taken a serious hit. They were selling for prices that weren't far off from Jordan for a while. In the last REA auction a 9.5 went for $1,300.

i'd be very curious to know production #'s of modern crap. Seems like a neverending supply?

i sold two lebron psa 10 s chromes 30 k each now ,,,well good luck with that pete ,hope your well

Too generalized a statement. Quite a few issues have a relatively low production number, and many are serially numbered. Overall, of course, there is a huge supply.

I bought a bunch of Darius Garland rookie cards at the height of the market for about $300 each. Not my best investment. They dropped to $10 earlier this year, and now with Cleveland in first place they've rallied to $30.

But this is the same market in which I bought a bunch of Leo Messi cards for $20 each and sold them later the same year for $800-$1000 each, so I suppose it worked out alright on balance.

And that has already happened. Vintage HOF rookies have been brought to crazy levels by the modern crowd. For example, you used to be able to buy a PSA 1 Leaf Jackie for under a grand, but now you need 5 - 6k. You need about 25k just to own the ugliest 52T Mantle you can find.

There is a never-ending supply of Clemente rookies, Koufax, Aaron, Brown, Unitas, etc. Looks like Topps had their printers running 7/24/365!

Billions and billions of modern crap. Small amounts of modern good stuff.

I'm not sure about modern print runs. For a product like 2024 Bowman Draft, the retail price was over $500 and that was if you bought directly from Topps.

That's a big price tag. Breakers will buy them up in large quantities compared to individual collectors, but how much product gets printed when it comes with a price tag like that?

Sure, and that's the other side of it. If you are collecting cards of active players, their prices are going to go all over the place based on how they are playing.

The point I was trying to make is that if you look at the basketball card market since 2021, it looks like it is tanking, but if you look at it over the last 5 years or longer, prices are way up. Iverson has been out of the league for 15 years. His cards go up or down based on the market demand for NBA stars. To pick a different player, Kobe's prices are similar. His Chrome refractor rookie was $6k in 2019, ran all the way up to $118k, and is now at $18.

The reason Doncic cards have gone down is because of the overall market, not because of Doncic specifically.

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Jokic. His numbers, at his age, are unreal.

That is the correct answer!

:rolleyes:

Not that there's there's any point either in trying to assign rhyme or reason to the flights of speculative fancy that characterize the card "market".

:(

When I started my signed 1953 Topps project in 2014, Stachel Paige was a $1,000 card, and there was always one, if not a few, on eBay. Maybe $1,200 if the buyer had to have it now, or $800 if the seller was trying to move it quickly, and it stayed at that level until the pandemic. In 2020, it started becoming a $2,000 card, and I figured there were some old ones being brought out of the woodwork by the higher prices and things would settle down. Instead, it has continued to climb; I was blown out on one a few months ago at over $8,000, and he doesn't come up as often as he used to either.

Agree. The Joker just keeps getting better. For a guy that plays below the rim it is crazy to see how much he controls the game. He could get another MVP this year, although Giannis and Shai are having amazing years as well.

I'm not sure how significant the EFF stat is at the end of the day, but Jokic is just crushing everyone else even Giannis. 10.6 assists per game so far, that's absurd for a big man.

Honestly, he could win a sort of triple crown this season (points, rebounds, assists) which isn't a thing only because no one's ever done it.

And at the same time leading the league in RBD and 2nd in points. I'm in a fantasy league and he's just head and shoulders above everyone else. Also shows people who don't understand how someone like Larry Bird could've dominated back in the day

It's a really significant stat, especially when used in conjunction with the +/- number.

;)

https://goldin.co/item/2018-panini-p...0-psa-gemkqzd3

100k USD for Josh f**king Allen! Zero Super Bowl appearances!

https://goldin.co/item/2023-panini-s...JkSW5kZXgiOjF9

https://goldin.co/item/2023-24-panin...JkSW5kZXgiOjB9

Crazy ... just crazy ... and only in his second season ...

For many I think acquiring/investing in cards of contemporary players -- especially basketball -- is part of being a fan.
It's a different inspiration that collecting vintage cards. Buying a card of Doncic, Jokic, or Josh Allen is way of rooting for them and "betting" on their success during the season. Nothing like building a T206 set, or trying to pick up cards of every hall of famer from their careers

Obviously the guys buying these types of cards have lots of play money and I am guessing most are relatively young. I suspect a good part of it driven by social media and bragging rights.

Let me first say this mickey mantle is one of the greatest to play the game but I believe the 52t mantle is over valued based on it being a double print and a ton of them in private collection and for sale. Cards of babe ruth even his rookie card dont bring the same money as a 52t mantle in comparable grades and they are a heck of alot rarer than that mantle card.

People buy Luka rookie cards for the same reason they buy a bitcoin . . . they are convinced past appreciation will guarantee a great investment. No one stares at it and oohs and ahs.

People buy 52 Mantles for all sort of other reasons. Yes, for many an investment, but other factors in play.

There has been an increase in interest in Luka RC's since the trade (as long as you live outside the DFW area)

Getting traded to LA and hopefully for him learning to get in shape the way LeBron stays in great condition will push his cards up a level or two.

And as for modern cards v the old timers. That has been going on for nearly 50 years now. When Mark "The Bird" Fidrych cards came out in 1977 after he became famous you could sell his cards for more than HOFers or guaranteed HOFers of most 1960's cards. Nearly 50 years later people still like to bet on the future which is not guaranteed instead of the more sure shot players.

Rich