Interesting! My opinion of Babe Ruth just went up a notch.

"Hitting is timing; pitching consists of upsetting timing." - Warren Spahn

'Nuff said.

:cool:

Perhaps. My heart though bleeds for neither.

;)

Good pitching beats good hitting and vice versa -- Casey Stengel.

Everyone deserves to be paid their worth. From lowly dishwashers, to the global sports superstars that bring joy to millions of people's lives and who's skills are truly one-of-one.

If Ohtani is remembered for this one postseason game, then I vote Kershaw should always be remembered for this one:

http://espn.com/blog/sweetspot/post/...ns-off-kershaw

My favorite story about Newk is he and his buddy Larry Doby decided to go to Japan at the end of their careers, but Newcombe went as an outfielder not a pitcher. He outhit Doby and stayed for a second season.

Probably shouldn’t have deferred $68M of his $70M annual salary.

But I’m guessing New Balance is making him whole.

Wilt isnt the G.O.A.T. Simple

The NBA changed the rules to make it more difficult for Wilt Chamberlain to dominate; the NBA changed the rules to make it easier for Michael Jordan to dominate. Case closed.

;)

Wilt played his games in old school Converse Chuck Taylor's. Love to see modern players have to lace those things up.

Asking a vintage group to pick between a vintage guy vs a modern. No bias for sure.

They changed the rules for that little clown Curry.

I think Kareem eventually passed him at the center position, but anyone who now discounts him could not have seen him play.

There is both recency bias and nostalgia bias in all these types of discussions.

Different eras, Different competition and different skills between those players. MJ was a killer. Case closed

A killer, eh? Well the bad boy Pistons left him battered and frustrated until they got old:

1988 Eastern Conference Semifinals: Pistons won, 4–1
1989 Eastern Conference Finals: Pistons won, 4–2
1990 Eastern Conference Finals: Pistons won, 4–3
1991 Eastern Conference Finals: Bulls won, 4–0

:p

I would have voted both if given the option, I'll bet most would have

MLB changed the rules to make it easier for Ohtani, but nobody seems to downgrade him for it.

Who is? Present is Ohtani
Who was? Past is Ruth

Ohtani on the Babe

https://youtu.be/FydIRZAZxqE?si=cNTjkotBRB4cdV2-

The longer version

https://youtu.be/xy1vT19pSyo?si=9hCzRMZiDhcXdq0Q


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"...at least not right now." The last words in the first (shortened) clip.

Btw, the full 60 Minutes segment is pure gold. Thanks for sharing.

Which rules?

:confused:

The "Ohtani Rule", which allows a starting pitcher to remain in the game as a DH even after he is relieved. While this rule doesn't make his burden easier as a player, some may argue it makes it easier for him to accumulate stats. The reality is that no player before him -- not even Ruth -- presented the problem.

I thought the DH rule allowed a designated hitter to replace a pitcher at bat but it didn't mandate that a pitcher couldn't hit. Therefore as a pitcher Ohtani could hit for himself but then serve as the DH for the pitchers replacing him on the mound.

My underlying problem though is that I hate the DH business in the first place because it flies in the face of the underlying principle of the game, i.e. the nine men playing in the field come to bat in turn.

:(

The DH replaces the P in the batting lineup. For every other team, the P and the DH are different people. So the legacy rule where players who get subbed out cannot return to the game is uncontroversial. The Ohtani rule treats Ohtani the starting pitcher and Ohtani the DH as two different players. That's how I think about it.


If you don't like the DH rule, then you should love Ohtani, as he's the only starting pitcher who hits for himself.

The technical question I have regarding the Ohtani rule is what happens if Ohtani is replaced with a pinch hitter as the DH, but the Dodgers want to keep him on the mound (let's say he sustains an injury to his left hand). Can he stay in as a pitcher? Or does the Ohtani Rule only work if he's replaced on the mound?

That billionaire owner observation is the common retort when anyone suggests that players are overpaid these days. But it misses the point. Consider.

As a fan I'm disinterested in watching the owners work. I certainly have no interest in buying tickets to do so. Nor I think does any fan idolize owners nor are they hounded for autographs. And I'm no exception. I give not a thought to the owners.

But as fans we are expected to cheer for the players toiling (actually just playing a kids' game) on our favourite teams. Well that would be easier to understand if they were superbly talented athletes sacrificing to play a game they love. But the players certainly aren't sacrificing these days - or even just earning a very decent wage. They're paid and pampered like demigods. So why should we as fans live and die with their on field exploits? My own father used to occasionally make that same point back in the 1960's when I was a kid "Why do you get so sick about these games? They're all professionals you know. They're only playing for the money."

And of course back in those days players were merely well paid. Salaries have increased a quantum leap since then. Yes as a kid I viscerally identified with my teams and the players on those teams. My emotional attachment was there in spades. But that's faded now. Now my interest is more intellectual. That of course may just be because I'm sixty years older. But I still think it's rather silly for a full grown man to viscerally identify and contribute to the mega salaries of present day players from his own relatively meager earnings.

:(

That's the way the DH rule should have been written in the first place (if written at all). Otherwise pitchers would effectively be prohibited from hitting and that certainly wouldn't be right.

If he's two different players under the rule, he should be able to continue as the pitcher.

:)

I would be curious as to how a band whose recording career was about 7 years and produced 21 #1 singles and 19 #1 albums could be overrated. That is before we consider how they completely changed music and the music industry.

Says you. A lot of people think he is just like a lot of people think LeBron is.

Sure know it all.

Ruth was better relative to his peers than Ohtani has been relative to his. You don't have to think WAR is a perfect measure to realize that the 182.6 vs. 51.5 discrepancy renders the question absurd.

Huge Dodger fan here who loves watching Ohtani and can't stand Dave Roberts.

I voted for Ruth—one of a kind.

If Ohtani can pitch and hit at an elite level for 10 more years, then he may have a case.

For now, I am just enjoying watching him, and I'm glad he is on my favorite team

Just keep telling yourself they were professionals doing it for the money, no need to get emotional...

I don't actually agree with your statement the way it's phrased.

To say everyone should be paid what their "worth" presupposes that there can be some objective determinant of the value of some individual's labour and that the individual must then be paid that amount. This is nonsense. The value of any individual's labour cannot be objectively determined by an outside party. And for pay rates/scales to be enforced would be an Orwellian nightmare.

Now I don't believe there should be government legislative barriers against anyone being paid whatever he can get. But the "worth" question is another matter entirely. On the one hand to me so-and-so (e.g. many pro athletes) aren't worth as much as they're making. But it's not up to me. I'm willing to stand aside and watch as they get whatever they can get in the marketplace.

That being said I also jealously guard my inalienable right to support or refrain from supporting whichever individual/entity I please for whatever reason. I reserve the right to just say "No!" to silliness.

In a world where an owner buys the TB Rays for 1.7 billion dollars for a team that doesn't even have a stadium to play in right now...the players can take all the money they can squeeze from the owners.

Anything less would be stupid. It would make you a stupid worker. It would mean you have no idea what your value is. It would make you a sucker.

Just like a piece of cardboard, you're worth what you can extract from those who want the item...in this case, a human who can throw, pitch, or field (or 2 out of 3 for Ohtani in this thread's case).

It is the most anti-capitalist thing in the world to not achieve your value. I can't even imagine defending devaluing yourself to do the work the person is hiring you not only won't do, but can't do.

Get real. Know your value.

This.

Every one deserves to be paid as much as they can get themselves paid.

To me a salary cap is the same as telling the company I work for that I will not allow them to pay me any more money, even if they want to.

Ohtani is an amazing player, and a class act. It would be interesting to see how his skills would hold up to the nightly onslaught of booze, babes, and beef that Ruth tore through.

Never did I say that I would expect the players not to try to get whatever they can get. I merely said that I reserve the right to sneer at their high pay. And I can and will just say "No!" if I think they're silly overpaid.

So the players can bargain for whatever they can get, the owners should be allowed to pay as little as they need to run their businesses (the last time they collectively exercised this right though it was called collusion and undercut what should have been their right) and finally I still have a right not to cheer for whatever the final denouement. Like I say, I reserve the right to say "That's silly! I won't support this nonsense with my dollar votes." For whatever reason some of you think that I should cheer gargantuan player salaries because these salaries are being paid by billionaires. That detail though is to me irrelevant. I compare players' salaries to what the average white collar/blue collar working stiff earns and then decide accordingly..


True.

If the owners choose to agree among themselves not to pay above a certain amount, that's their right. No one should hold a gun to their heads and say you can't come to this agreement. If the players don't like this agreement, nobody is forcing them to stay within MLB. They can play elsewhere or do something else entirely. It's still their choice.

I don't care what they're paid, but also I care what they're paid and took action in my own life because of what they're paid because they're getting paid too much?

They're entitled to get whatever they can get. And I'm entitled to spend, or withhold, my dollar votes accordingly for whatever rational, metaphysical, psychological or emotional reasons.

:)

Yes, agreed.

When the owners agree to do that, the players will quite likely withhold their services, and the owners can then hire other players to participate in their scheduled games.

I recently turned down a job that I didn't feel would pay me enough money for my services, I took a different job for less money that I felt did pay me enough for my services. The first job found somebody for less than what I turned down. Everybody won.

How would you guys like it if all the employers in your industry got together and agreed to cap all the workers' salary at a below market clearing level?

Do you really want Net54's opinion on this? Haha

It's literally not their right. They did that in 1985, it was rightly deemed illegal, and they had to pay restitution to the players.

The second paragraph I was totally against it until the outside party bit.

Assuming they're not stupid, any owner wouldn't pay someone the sort of money the stars get - what? 20 million/year? - if they didn't think that person would bring more than that to the business as profit.

That goes for pro players and pretty much all of us who aren't owners of a business. I had a discussion about it with a former employer once. I was a bit down because one of the other guys had given me a hard time about not billing much at all. I had a typical small business crazy job. Most purchasing, most inside sales, took nearly all calls to schedule service, Pulled parts for jobs, occasionally made parts, and did repairs both in the shop and on the road. Not very odd for a place with 5 people.

The guy I worked for asked me if I actually knew what product I provided to the company. I had no idea. The he asked what happened to the time on jobs I was interrupted while doing. Obviously if I had to take 3 calls during a 1 hour job it stretched it to 2 hours or more.
Exactly I was making sure the other guys weren't interrupted for anything but the most important questions. My product was time. My hour of doing "nothing" often translated to 2-3 hours of billable time.

So in a way most of us are probably paid what we're "worth" And yes, an outside party can't really determine that. But the people running the team or company can.

At the risk of bringing the thread back on topic. When was the last time Babe Ruth stole 50+ bases while only being caught 4 times?

In Ruth's time,the bases weren't pizza box-sized, and pitchers weren't limited in throwing to first .. (Not that Ruth would've stolen 50 even with those things)

If there's one area where it's hard to argue Ruth was better than Ohtani in, it's base stealing. Ruth did steal 123 bases but was caught stealing 116 times not including his caught stealing to end the 1926 World Series.

To put it very precisely I'm absolutely opposed to the government being involved in determining and enforcing pay scales. That should be decided by mutual agreement between the employer and employee, i.e. determined in the marketplace.

It sounds like you are unaware of the history of labor relations in baseball.

Agreed, and I'm not making that argument. The rule changes making it easier to steal bases (I also didn't mention the "oven mitt" which effectively doubles the length of the player's hand) are part of the picture when trying to compare IMO

As if anyone cares how many bases Ruth stole. It's like asking how many rushing yards Tom Brady had, or something.

SUMMARY
Career

WAR
182.6

AB
8399

H
2873

HR
714

BA
.342

R
2174

RBI
2214

SB
123

OBP
.474

SLG
.690

OPS
1.164

OPS+
206

Somehow the term "base stealer" doesn't pop to mind when I see this man:

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod...-517324714.jpg

:eek:

It seems to me, that the 1% of the 1% bazillionaires in this country have a common need to own a sport's franchise. Their bulging portfolios aren't complete without one and are jealous of those who already own one.

Not so positive Ohtani’s gonna reach/surpass Ruth’s career pitching stats,
39-20 3.00
94-46 2.28
55,56 More wins ? Nowadays that’s a good five or six years of being in regular rotation.

It's amazing the lengths we will go to downgrade Ohtani's accomplishments.

He stole 59 bases and hit 54 home runs in the same year. Well, that's because the rules make it easier to steal bases now. Meanwhile this year the MLB leader in SBs had 49. And the year Ohtani stole 59 only one player had more (67 with 16 CS compared to Ohatni's 59 with 4 CS).

He struck out 10 batters, allowed no runs and two hits, and hit three home runs in the same game (a playoff game to boot). Well, he only pitched six innings. And he doesn't speak English. And he makes too much money (most of which he deferred to help the Dodgers sign more players).

Oh, and he doesn't drink enough, eat enough, or chase women.

I voted for Ruth. For career value, Ohtani has a long way to go. But that doesn't mean we can't appreciate what he is doing.

When you're as rich and famous as Ohtani, you don't need to chase women. So many just throw themselves at you that you have to fight them off. If you don't, it can leave you so drained that it impairs your base stealing ability. Maybe though that's why his stolen base total dropped from 59 to 20 this year.

:(

The last season under the old rules, Ohtani attempted 20 steals and was thrown out 9 times. It is amazing how easy it is to steal bases now.

The year before the rule change, Ohtani was pitching also. Won his first of what will be 3 MVPs as a two way player. In the one year when he wasn't pitching, he was second in the league in stolen bases. Perhaps it is easier to steal bases now, but on a relative basis, he did pretty well when he decided to give it a real go.

I've been doing more research on Ruth's career. He really only had one full season as a two way player -- 1919. And many of his contemporaries were also two way players, like George Sisler. Being a two way player was also fairly common in the Negro Leagues, with stars like Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan leading the way. It's debatable whether Ruth was even the best two way player of his era, given others who did it and how short Ruth's two way career actually was.

In marked contrast, Ohtani is peerless in this era and every other for the past 100 years.

Ohtaini's CAREER pitching WAR is 16.2. Let's keep it real, shall we?

Keeping it real: When was the last time we've had a hitter with even, say, 3 WAR while also getting 1 WAR as a pitcher in the same season? Ohtani far exceeded that in every one of the (soon to be) three years he's won MVP as a two way player.

And then consider how hard it is to do that when you're competing against the caliber of professional athletes today.

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

For any Ohtani fans ( fug it and for any non fans . Lets include everyone sharing is caring )

https://youtu.be/gZb_OLoZaaU?si=J8mYWGnMF0dP5S5R

https://youtu.be/NEJap9MV5iI?si=Gcev03Ahqd-cp8kN

https://youtu.be/J7ZgQA6pir0?si=sLQLw39EAUNfwflT

And from bad ass Judge mouth .

https://youtube.com/shorts/TrdLQ8cIN...gchlxlCdQINJfd


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If value in terms of career WAR is your measure of who is better, then Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than both Clayton Kershaw and Bob Gibson.

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

These are awesome clips, although to be fair, Aaron Judge is way too classy to say anything less gracious than what he said in his answer to the reporter. Judge is old school in that way. Yankees are lucky to have him.

Just to chime in, if you don't mind. I can't speak for Ohtani's effectiveness as a pitcher or comparing across eras, because I do not know the stat for it. There is, however a stat that is all encompassing that measures a players offensive production, across eras, adjusting for park factors. I've included an image below that gives a more comprehensive definition below, along with its formula.


https://library.fangraphs.com/wp-con...7317254601.png



If we go by this statistical measurement. It's Ruth, it's not close. He owns a 194 wRC+. Ohtani's is very impressive though, sitting at a 156 wRC+.

For reference, it labels the three best hitters of all time, assuming minimum 1500 games, as Ruth, Williams and Bonds in that order.

Thanks for this. I took a look and I think I get most of the wRC+ math. I actually can't say for sure, but does wRC+ account for the quality of the peer group (in other words, the quality of the average player)?

If not, then Ruth's high wRC+ suggests that he is much better than his peers in terms of offensive production than Ohtani, but it doesn't necessarily speak to whether doing that is easier or harder than what Ohtani is doing today (156 wRC+) relative to his peers.

Which means it really isn't that helpful in comparing players across eras; it's just helpful in comparing players relative to the average players within their own eras.

Ruth may be more genetically gifted relative to his peers than Ohtani is to his. In fact, when you look at Ruth, who looked like a morbidly obese person during the off-season and perhaps just an obese person in-season, that's a very plausible explanation for his out performance.

Ohtani is doing what he is doing in an era when basically every player is genetically gifted and also training hard and not screwing around lifestyle-wise (at least in ways that are detrimental to performance). And, as has been stated many times, Ohtani is the only two-way player in his era (which speaks to its absolute and relative difficulty), while Ruth was one of many -- and perhaps not even the best (cue Martin Dihigo and Bullet Rogan).

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

I know it claims to be era and park adjusted, but unfortunately I think it's the best thing were going to find in terms of a number. I believe I said it earlier in the thread, we can only truly compare a player to his peers and in his era. Life is so different now.

Fangraphs does factor wRC+ for the Negro League players as well. Josh Gibson is the technical all time leader with a 202 wRC+ but due to the small sample sizes we have of his stats, as it's under 1500 games, I didn't think it should've been included.

Yes, he absolutely is a great player, and the two way thing is amazing as I have said. I just don't buy the comparison to Ruth.

Ohtani is 100% "a modern day babe ruth" for his pitching/hitting prowess. The ball just sounds different coming off his bat...like ruth. Ohtani has a mania attached to him...worldwide...kinda like ruth had later in his career. Ohtani...like ruth has controversy attached with the gambling thing. All the greats are flawed.

Ruth's legacy is cemented. If ohtani can complete a whole career approaching 150-200 wins and over 4-500 hr's...he will be in his own league.

Comparisons from diff eras are fun...but are imprecise.

He has 39 wins thru his age 30 season. That's a big IF. Home runs, much more realistic.

Every sport is always looking for the next king, went through the same thing when LeBron was at a similar stage in his career and also with Mahomes .
A lot of it is trying to predict the future.
Not enough to unseat Ruth ... yet

For the Game it showcases an exceptional human being.

Team Ohtani here, but that I won't argue at all. If Ohtani ends up in a cascading injury spiral or otherwise doesn't continue to show what he's currently showing for a few more years then he was simply a guy who shined much brighter than his peers for a while.

I don't blame those that want Ohtani to prove more. I just believe he'll deliver that "more."

I went to Game 1 last night. Here is my view of the Ohtani homer

https://youtu.be/YUVUhtyvY_4?si=CaefnGBO5mg6c2N_

With how easy it is I was hoping for more of an explosion like in the 80's.