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Are there players whose "clutch" numbers are substantially higher than their BA? |
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It only makes sense if you are going to be a failure at going for power.
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Put another way - of all the guys whose careers are over, and were played entirely in the integrated era, Mantle is 2nd in OPS+. To a steroid guy. Mantle was an incredibly great player who somehow is also underrated. |
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Orioles/Pirates
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You have to love Joey Gallo, 22 HR and .187. Oh and his WAR -- same as Belushi's GPA in Animal House -- 0.0.
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Brian |
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Nope. |
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Mantle isn't even in the top 10 all time hitters. Let alone when you include pitchers. |
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His stats were skewed too much to value for that position. This has since been "taken care of" by the new generation of stat geeks who have more than taken over for James. Offensive WAR per plate appearance shows the players who made the most of their times at the plate. To me, these are the ten greatest hitters, based on their production per plate appearance, of all time: 1 Babe Ruth 2 Barry Bonds 3 Ty Cobb 4 Willie Mays 5 Hank Aaron 6 Honus Wagner 7 Tris Speaker 8 Stan Musial 9 Rogers Hornsby 10 Eddie Collins Mickey Mantle is #12 |
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How does it make sense to include Barry Bonds? If you want to talk about ability, then I would support Bonds being a part of the discussion. But none of his stats are authentic and I would not include him in any discussions based on stats.
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I cannot imagine any serious metric that does not rank Ted in the top TEN of all time?
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Gehrig = 13 |
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He is within a scant 1.5 points of being in 8th, ahead of Musial and Collins and Hornsby. There is a gap of 5 full points from Williams at #11 to Mantle at #12. |
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Hold on.
I was using an older list and oWAR calculations have been tweaked since then. Updated list shortly.. |
As of today, I do have a bit of newfound respect for Mr. Mantle. With the new oWAR calculations, he has moved up the list.
1. Babe Ruth 2. Ted Williams 3. Rogers Hornsby 4. Lou Gehrig 5. Ty Cobb 6. Willie Mays 7. Barry Bonds 8. Mickey Mantle 9. Dan Brouthers 10. Joe Jackson 11. Honus Wagner 12. Tris Speaker WAR has added value to OBP and most especially walks in the intervening 8 years since the old list I had shown. That was lazy on my part....my apologies to all. |
Now that's more like it for Ted and Lou.
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Sorry guys, but I have to :) when I read some of these comments regarding Mantle. First of all, how many of you saw him play during the years 1952 - 1964 ? ?
Us older dudes were fortunate to see him play. You wouldn't believe the excitement Mickey generated every time he came to bat. I have traded stories with my Father-in-law, who saw Babe Ruth play and the air of excitement was very similar. Like in the days of Ruth, our expectations every time were that Mickey would drive the baseball 500 - 600 feet out of the ballpark. OK, since you guys love to throw Stats, around, or even worst, that neo-term called "WAR" when comparing players......how's about these numbers...... BA = .313 (1952 - 1964) RBI's = 102/year (avg. based on 162 games/year) HR's = 454 (1952 - 1964), which translates to a HR every 13.4 AB's 18 HR's in 11 - World Series (including a Grand Slam in the 1953 W.S.) Trust me guys, Mickey was a better CLUTCH HITTER than most. And, no one talks about his fielding ability. For half of each season, Mickey excellently covered the most expansive CF in baseball (Yankee Stadium) back then. I will never, ever forget watching him run a "country mile" in the 5th game of the 1956 World Series to catch a 440-foot drive by Gil Hodges right in front of the Monuments (which saved Don Larsen's Perfect game). Type 2 ................................... Double Printed ....................................... Type 1 http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tleSGC40xx.jpg . . http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...mmantle52t.jpg And, I might add....any comparison of these ballplayer that doesn't include Ted Williams in the top ten is completely worthless. Forget his great statistics. You had to see him play to really appreciate him......and, I was very fortunate watching Ted play from 1947 - 1960. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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To Ted's point about generating excitement at the plate, I only saw Mantle very late in his career, but I would make a similar observation about Reggie Jackson, it was always an event with him at the plate. |
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As for having a newfound respect for someone because he's higher on the list based on a new calculation, I find that pretty ridiculous. I don't need anyone to create a new stat or manipulate an old one to convince me who the all time greats were. There are so many factors that change over time that it's difficult to truly compare players from different eras. No formula will ever get it exactly right. |
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Supposedly there is a Clemente movie coming out next year or year after.
We all know what happened to Jackie Robinson cards after that movie. Time to get in on Roberto. |
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Still not top ten though. |
My top 10 non-pitchers non-Bonds non-A Rod would probably be
Ruth Mays Cobb Williams Gehrig Aaron Wagner Musial Speaker DiMaggio Mantle would be right behind these, and Hornsby. |
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So to me, not including Negro League players like Gibson or Charleston...which is unfortunate....I would put Mantle as the 11th greatest position player of all time. Also behind at least six or seven pitchers. |
On Baseball Reference A Rod is 5th in HOF Monitor and 2nd in HOF Standards.
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Peter Cobb and Wagner ?.....Hey guy, I remember opening up Gypsy Queen packs and finding these gems :) http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...ansonkelly.jpg TED Z T206 Reference . |
Those two cards have to be on any short list of classic baseball cards.
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Smoking at a young age will stunt your growth Ted.:eek: |
Come on, Frank....you know I didn't smoke those "weeds". I kept the cards, and sold the cigarettes for 5 cents apiece.
I was an entrepreneur at a very young age back in 1889. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Again, 7th all-time in OPS+, 6th if you only count retired guys. And he played, by far, the most valuable defensive position of the 6. And was good at it. * - Yes, I am accounting for pitchers. |
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