I have followed some of this. If PSA can't see paper loss, and don't recognize scans and pictures, why are they even bothering to acknowledge that anything has been altered? The might as well just be like BGS and just ignore it. Just like they all did for the signed Tobacco card forgeries (when is the last time anything was provided on that).

IMO...anything that PSA has done in the past should be thrown out the window.

They're under new ownership...who seem to have aspirations of blowing up the hobby like never seen before.

They need to make this...and other obvious errors right...and move on.

IMO...this is what will happen.

There are countless altered cards in slabs. People have been doctoring cards and getting them into holders for close to 30 years. Many of the doctors are prolific in terms of the quantities they churn out, and in modern it's absolutely rampant. How the hell is new ownership ever going to fix that?

One card at a time. In an open and honest way.

Crossing fingers

What happens with your one Jackie card really has not much to do with the unbelievable scope of an unfixable problem.

Ya mean you do not want to share in his excitement over his trying to hit the Leaf Lottery? Just look how excited the man is.

If he hits it, and I have my doubts, good for him I guess, but let's not pretend this is somehow some turning point for the hobby if he does.

True that... They would need to re-review tens of thousands of other cards (now socked away in countless collections), confiscate them all, re-slab them as "A", and monetarily compensate the thousands of other owners (beyond this Jackie abomination)... just to start making a dent.

SO not happening.

Yes Jackie Leaf has surged since I bought the card last summer, but so have lots of other cards. I've got to potentially get this re-holdered in an A holder and fight over not getting screwed on the fair market price.

The leaf lottery? No thanks, don't want that "good luck".

I am very interested to see how this shakes out. AJ, thank you for posting about this and please keep us updated. Posting this on a public forum (one PSA does not control), could have some impact on PSA's response, especially in light of new ownership.

I agree with Pete that there is new ownership and we should see how they handle this before we all go crazy. While I am very doubtful, the new owners deserve a shot. I also agree with Peter that there is no way PSA could ever fully honor its guaranty in light of all the altered cards in PSA slabs; especially considering that the value of those cards are 2-10x what they were 6 months ago.

Anyway, lets see how it shakes out.

AJ, there are some who have been looking for a higher profile test case to litigate PSA's guaranty. This seems like a decent example. If you choose to get a lawyer and litigate, I am sure there are a number of people who would contribute something to the cost. Just sayin.....

Appreciate the support. I've been a long time PSA supporter (my whole collection is PSA) so I'm hoping we can have a dialogue and get it sorted without resorting to lawyers. I've got an email out to Steve and will wait until later this week to reach out to Nat (anyone have Nat's email?).

A much better test case IMO would be where the seller refused to refund the buyer, and the buyer promptly made a claim on the guarantee. It will certainly be interesting to see how this plays out, and hopefully for the best, but I don't think it's a typical or ideal case.

Though it's probably not reasonable to assume the buyer would know immediately card in hand that it had been trimmed or altered.

That's why he used the expertise of a third party grader when choosing which card to buy, so that eyes more experienced than his own would render that opinion. A TPG company no less that would vouch for it's estimation with particular guarantees.

Not unreasonable at all to NEVER question it until being made aware of the possibility by yet others of greater hobby experience.
You could have the card for 20 years sitting in your safe and not give another thought to it's authentic grade, then upon taking it out find reason to question the possibility of alteration.
And subsequently need to seek recompense.
No?

You don't know the facts of this case, I do. I wouldn't have said what I said were it not so.

If by buyer you mean AJ, he was apparently notified with proof just over 30 days after his purchase was made.

Yes many of us rely, but maybe not blindly, on a TPG assessment however if someone provides evidence which supports a card in question might be altered and should not have graded, addressing it timely is imperative. Aug 2020 was ions ago in this fast moving market. If pressed I feel pretty confident that eBay would have approved of a return at the price paid at which time the seller could have gone to PSA for a buy back. I am even more confident that PSA would have liked for the opportunity to buy back the card in Aug 2020 rather than someone waiting until March 2021 to make an inquiry.

No offense intended, but I don’t understand why you should be entitled to receive “lost profits” on a card that apparently has been trimmed. If PSA returned your purchase price and kept the doctored card, wouldn’t you be made whole? Maybe I misunderstand?

Because their grade guarantee specifically states "current market value."

Ah, I didn't know the time-frame of AJ's card......
Even so, it's an interesting proposition.
If I buy a card, eBay, Auction House, wherever, the card sits in a Third Party Grading Slab of repute, and when I receive it I'M confident it's ok, what is the presumed responsibility for me to get it re-evaluated if contacted by someone else (NOT the TPG company looking to make amends for it's mistake) whose opinion it is that the grade is incorrect...either for grade assessed, evidence of authenticity, or alteration?

As a hobbyist myself, my first thought if I believe the card good is that I'm being contacted by a party upset at having missed the opportunity to buy it themselves, and looking to have me give it up.

For instance, I'm going to post the following.
It's my W514 Jax, and I've posted it before.
It's an SGC 86, sharp as all get out. In fact, I have no idea how it can be so sharp after all those years before I got it and subsequently had it graded. It was raw at the time of purchase nearly 20 years ago.
I inspected it, and while it's a touch 'bat wingy' at one corner I could seen no evidence of recent cutting. But when was it cut? Did a kid/adult back in 1919 actually perform that kind of perfect hand cutting from the strip?
SGC thought the same as I after inspecting the card.

But what if one of you guys decided you didn't like how it looked, and insisted it MUST be non-contemporaneously trimmed, and decided you would reach out to SGC to push your claims.
Am I then obligated to chase down someone else's suspicions?
That doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

Now, I'm SUUUUUPER confident in this card, or I wouldn't post it, but still I run the risk if this is the new standard - no?

Again, I understand if the TPG becomes aware of a likely mistake, in fact one so obvious just by first take there is an blatant issue and it needs immediate return.
But in the other instance, I'm sure relying on both my opinion and that of the TPG should be sufficient for me to not have to 're evaluate' every card I buy?

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...ee/W514Jax.JPG

In the case of AJ, if you read the threads from BO you will see the purpose of providing evidence to the alteration to the 48L was not done so anyone could get the card from him, at least as I have read it. Was to put people on notice--the exact opposite purpose.

In the case of your strip card, I think is assumed and accepted by grading companies that some have been cut down well after their release. As long as they size up it does not matter when or who cut them or recut them.

Yup, i got the specifics of this instance, I was talking out loud about the generic...
Anyway, obviously not of intellectual interest so I'll drop it.

just for clarification "The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on Sports Market Report and SMR Online values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace."

However " PSA will be the sole determiner of the current market value."

IS that why SMR is always so off base? :rolleyes:

SMR is useless but the PSA website showing auction prices is a good resource, similar to VCP.

What is the "Marketplace" (I thought that was PWCC)

Who Determines the Definition of "THE MARKETPLACE"

I assume it's a reference to recent auction sales, as on their website.

Any updates AJ ??????

I promised to provide an update and just heard back from PSA today.

I sent the card via prepaid fedex to Jackie who informed me that she gave the card blind to their head grader (no knowledge of the evidence provided in the blowout link). The grader measured the card and looked for evidence of trim or alteration and found none. Jackie then gave the grader the link to the evidence which she said was reviewed by the grader. Upon 2nd inspection by the same grader, Jackie informs me that they still didn't find evidence of alteration or trimming and are standing by the 4.5 grade. They validated the cert # and took scans for their records. As is PSA practice, Jackie tells me they don't give written acknowledgment of the review but she says my account will reflect the review (which I have provided here).

I have no plans to sell the card in the immediate future, but the question I think now is that I'll need to include the "story" of the card to whomever might someday purchase and let them decide.

So PSA can't detect trimming even when shown said trimming.

Man. Not surprised, I guess, but it sure seemed a clear cut case. Meet the new boss. (riff) Same as the old boss. (riff)

AJ, I don't suppose you know if Reza reviewed it?

That would be appropriate. Do unto others and whatnot. I bet you'd still realize full price on it.

By being in complete denial (and trying to limit their own liability), PSA continues to create a huge credibility problem for the hobby.

Sure, AJ can sell the card with full disclosure. Very commendable on his part.

But what about the next seller. And how about the seller after that? At what point does the card change hands without any proper disclosure? There is absolutely no doubt that this altered card will remain in circulation with zero disclosure at some point in time. Someone will ultimately get burned for many thousands of dollars.

A huge disservice to the hobby, courtesy of PSA. The fact that they can ignore obvious "before and after" evidence doesn't surprise me in the least. But it is still a self-serving and bitter disappointment.

Lawsuit? Create a go fund me page, I will kick in significantly.

That might be the only way
 

To force a clearly necessary independent opinionwhich at best I imagine would prove that they "got it wrong" - I imagine it would be much harder to prove it was done as a perpetration of fraud to limit their liability. Any attorneys care to chime in?

This is the equivalent of asking the Fox with wool around his mouth if he ate the sheep he was guarding and taking his word for it when he responds no!

No surprise to me at least that PSA would not accept evidence of trimming by Blowout. What would be the implications if they did? IMO PSA's contingent liabilities grossly exceed their net worth given the amount of altered cards that have received grades. The problem is proving that such as to be legally able to invoke their guarantee. So if PSA were to concede that evidence of trimming by Blowout in and of itself requires it to make good on their guarantee, that concession could have significant adverse financial consequences.

EDITED TO ADD that regardless what Blowout did or did not find, the notion that a company will objectively evaluate whether it needs to make good on a guarantee is unrealistic. The entire concept behind the legitimacy of TPG is based on the principle that the grading company has no economic stake in the outcome. So we are to believe that a TPG will objectively evaluate that it made a mistake, the consequences of which will be to trigger a significant financial liability? Your Kool-Aid better be pretty strong to swallow that one.

Thanks for the update, AJ.
Sad to see it go this way, but not at all unexpected. Remember that "interview" of Brent at PWCC a couple years ago when he argued that if alterations couldn't be detected then there shouldn't be a problem (I'm certainly paraphrasing)? I think he called it "restoration" rather than alteration. Seems like the hobby has clearly hit that unfortunate target. I don't believe that PSA is involved in a conspiracy about this, just that they actually cannot detect the alterations of this card and so many many more.
Does anyone know of a serial numbered card that BODA has outed and then was reviewed by the TPG that graded it and revised it's assessment to acknowledge the alteration(s), or standing by the assessment? I know BODA has found a number of serial numbered cards like this and it would be tougher to question their discoveries as it is iron clad going to be the same card.

This is really a new low the more I think about it == to be clear, PSA and the giant middle finger it just gave the hobby.

Not a new low, just another day at the orifice, I mean office.:D

Yup. When it costs you 20K to admit you were wrong, and there are no consequences to insisting you were right even if you were wrong, which do you pick?

I would guess this was not really left to the judgment of a grader. Or the grader was smart enough to know what he was supposed to conclude.

You should crack it out and resubmit under another name it and see if it comes back as trimmed.

I second this. I'm sure others will, too.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1457965

Interesting that PSA is now cracking down on cards previously submitted through them that they have visual evidence of being graded before. Wonder if this is only for serial numbered cards, and currently only certain grading levels are getting scanned by PSA.
Nat Turner has also responded to a thread or two on Blowout calling out PSA for doing their customers wrong, however, he has smartly stayed out of any thread having to do with their inability or complicity in the altered cards scandal.

He understands that the vast majority of the hobby doesn't care.

If they say it isn't trimmed, it isn't trimmed. Even if it is.

If I say it's safe to surf this beach, it's safe to surf this beach.

Ipse dixit or whatever the figure of speech is.

To me this denial despite being shown before and after is enough to push them over the line into complicit.

But they'll skate on this like they do with everything, because all that matters is "value added"

SGC is the same.

Excellent point. Even though we've long suspected PSA's complicity and favoritism towards "preferred" customers.... This is now hard evidence that they not only misidentified an altered card, but also shunned iron-clad evidence that the card is altered.

At a bare minimum, they are in violation of their so called "guarantee". More accurately however, this categorizes them as purveyors of fraud.

I know there are thousands of similar corrupt instances, but really hope the FBI is all over this particular one (as the stakes are far higher with this case).

PSA won't get fooled again (loud riff)

FBI can't and won't do anything about it.
it's PSA and grading company's opinion, and you agree when you send the card to them. It's THEIR OPINION not you and everyone else opinion

Agree I’ve been saying this for months. PSA has Done ZERO NOTHING CLOSE THAT RISES TO CRIMINAL...IT’s just their opinion, nothing more nothing less.

Bill Hughes has been quoted as saying he and everyone else in the room KNEW the Wagner was trimmed (not to mention sheet cut in the first place). It is slabbed an 8. Is that "just their opinion"?

Again, suppose some of their "opinions" were not genuinely held?

The evidence may not be there to support a criminal charge, but that's an entirely different question from are there circumstances in which they could be criminally culpable for rendering an "opinion."

I believe AJ has done everything he can, If I was AJ I would be unloading this thing quicker than fast with a clear conscience.

Didn't take long as usual for the PSA apologists to come out of the woodwork.

Hey, if I charged people a bunch of money for MY opinions on some things, I'd be right as often as they are (Hardly ever apparently)
I'd probably also be doing time for some sort of fraud...

They're all way too expensive for me, but I'd like to see one of these cards where PSA can't find the alteration even when it's pointed at.