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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Appreciate your point of view.<br /><br />One factor to consider is that is more difficult to get higher end trims through grading companies whereas as one expert pointed out to me there are a number of things you can do to the lower grade cards to improve the grade.<br /><br />I won't fight my point to the death--only repeating what I have heard from what I consider to be knowledgeable people. Maybe I'm wrong?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>in some cases, more things you can do to a 3 to get a 4 than the other. BUT.....again......the reward isn't exponentially greater like it is on the high end stuff. I'm sure that, within every segment of cards, there are cards that have been doctored that have made it through. It's just the law of averages. We can debate the point all we want but we'll never REALLY know. <br /><br />

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />I will consult the grand wizard of knowledge of card alterations and see what he says.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I hope your grand wizard has been doing this longer than 3 years.....If not he might not be so grand.....You might want to consult someone that has been doing it longer than my newest pair of underwear is old......<br /><br /><br />edited for clarification

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Who is the grand wizard of knowledge of card alterations?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin Saucier.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jim, <br /><br />If your point is that lower grade cards (3s, 4s) have had pencil marks removed or a corner layed down, I agree. I also really couldnt care less if I had a card that once had a pencil mark removed. Frankly, I would not be overly concerned if I had a card that at one time had a wrinkle spooned out (as long as it never came back - which is a subject of debate). These things dont concern me as much because I (1) in the case of erasing, dont consider it to be an alteration; or (2) in the case of wrinkle removal, am prepared to accept and live with that fact. These types of "alterations" do not fundamentally change the card in my mind. <br /><br />Trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, etc - these are all things that absolutely change the card and, IMO, are much more likely to be found in higher grades.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>JK,<br /><br />Respect your point of view. I asked the expert and if he says I am wrong I stand corrected. Also will ask Dave Forman and Mike Baker this weekend to see what they say on this.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You know you are batting your head against a brick wall, right? Common sense has never worked with Jim.....The ole adage "common sense isn't so common" never rang more true....Though I do firmly believe that about 99.8% of our members do have good common sense.....

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim admitted he was wrong. That's what happens when you post simultaneously.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I dont believe Jim has admitted anything - there is an "if" in there.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>I dont know what is worse. Trying to understand Crandell or running my knuckles over a cheese grader for 30 minutes.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I think I said I may be wrong. I will of course say so if I am. I will talk to Kevin, Mike and Dave and report back. my sense is that even if all three agree with what I said there will still be those who will criticise the messenger.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>They can't all 3 agree, unless its that they all agree you are wrong.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>May be wrong...fair enough, the jury is still out.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Brian,<br /><br />Whatever they say, I will report in.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>I have found this thread to be eerily similar to a horrific car crash.<br /><br />You just HAVE to look.<br /><br />

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jim;<br /><br />I know you're one of Kevin’s biggest supporters I get it and Kevin seems ok, I still don’t really get what he's trying to achieve with his experiments but at least there are thought provoking.<br /><br />But seriously don’t go into the PR field anytime soon…”Grand Wizard” of card alterations. I would think of a better name for Kevin if you can. That is unless he’s planning on burning slabs in our front yards anytime soon wearing a white hood.LOL<br />

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Hold tight--I expect to have a statement by Kevin in the next two hours.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>A statement about what?

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>"Ask not what your country can do for you..."

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>"Hold tight--I expect to have a statement by Kevin in the next two hours."<br /><br /><br /><br />Gee Jim...I'm sure everyone is on the edge of their seats. What does that mean? Hold tight? I think most everyone likes Kevin and accepts he has some pretty good knowledge with card alterations, but geez Crandell...you act like he's the second coming of Moses.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>"A statement about what?"<br /><br />About whether spooning and erasing are material alterations?

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Don't you mean Jesus?<br /><br />I think Henry would be offended <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p><i>I know you're one of Kevin’s biggest supporters I get it and Kevin seems ok, I still don’t really get what he's trying to achieve with his experiments but at least there are thought provoking.</i><br /><br /><br />Wait....I think I just felt the ground shake. NO, it's not an earthquake. John, are you hitting the cough syrup again or did you bump your head (LOL)? <br /><br /><br />Have to agree with you on the Grand Wizard thing. I am, after all...Jewish. I suspect a photoshop image is soon to follow.<br /><br /><br />Kevin

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Anyone caught spooning with their cards on the Net54 will be summarily beaten to death by the Grand Wizard.

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Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Kevin-<br /><br />Can't you just give us your "statement" yourself without it passing through Jim? Just keeps the suspense going if we wait on Jim.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>(ROTFLMAO) I'm contractually obligated to work through my agent. Soon my people will contact your people.<br /><br /><br />Keep in mind: It's not the destination that counts, It’s the journey.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I hope Dave doesn't mind me saying but I asked him the question about what cards does he feel might be more prone to altering.....Basically, it's as all people with common sense have said all along....the higher the grade the more prone they are to have issues we are speaking of. Specifically the 8-9 group would be the most prone.....This is stuff we already knew but since he and I were talking I went ahead and asked him. It's just common sense.......regards

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>It will be a bit longer--please stand by.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I'm peeing in my pants...please don't make me wait any longer!

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Posted By: <b>Eric Brehm</b><p>I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this has already been said. Obviously there is more economic incentive to alter a high grade card than a low grade one. But high grade cards that are now in holders at least have been inspected by a professional grader and given the stamp of approval. So the percentage of graded cards that have been altered is probably low. The percentage of raw cards that have been altered is probably low also, especially in the lower grades. The ones I would be worried about are the ones that appear to be high grade but haven't been holdered yet -- the question is why aren't they in a holder? It is either because they haven't been sent in yet, or because they have been altered, or appear to be so, and have been rejected as such.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>As usual Jim. 182 posts now in this thread and all of it meaningless.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I agree with Eric. It's just common sense. Last relatively expensive card I bought raw was a 56 Mantle in NM condition; when that card came back as trimmed from PSA I learned my lesson.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There are very few high grade cards sold today that aren't slabbed. There's no reason to leave all that money on the table when a graded card is worth so much more.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave,<br /><br />Only you think that way--don't read it.<br /><br />Just read your comments--lighten up--no reason to go through life so angry.<br /><br />This is fun.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Leon, That is great.... but you did not talk the the grand wizard.<br /><br />

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jim;<br /><br />Would this comment from Kevin have anything to do with what he posted on the Full Count board? If so why the secret squirrel routine? Just cut and paste Kevin’s blurb I found it interesting and Kevin may be on to something. <br /><br />"The fact is Mastro has worked on cards in the past and according to Doug, the possibility is still there. Rumors in the seedy underground world of card doctors is that they employed a person (or two) to do the altering before sending them to an accepting grading company. I have even been given their names from some very respected sources, one name is instantly known. Regardless, they are an auction house and have no business touching the card other than selling them."<br /><br />"I don't trust them and would never even think about buying a sportscard from Mastro. If they admit to laying down corners and pressing creases, imagine what they are not telling us. What few non-sport cards I did win was by accident...my low bid to keep playing actually won."<br /><br />"As many know, I have a very extensive Titanic relic collection. In Dec 2006, Mastro had up for auction some very questionable Titanic items. A quick investigation revealed they were consigned by a well known ebay fraudster. I called and told them the items were fake and, as a matter of fact, the survivor who's jewelry piece was being offered was never even on the ship (living or dead). They still sold with full knowledge and without a disclosure. Here is a thread about two auctions...with links."<br /><br />Kevin Saucier<br /><br /><br />Kevin with that said and all due respect sooner or later your going to have to step up your role in this stuff and really give some background on yourself and your motives etc. If you don’t know matter how much interesting stuff you elude too that you have uncovered without names and evidence it’s really nothing more than hearsay and theories? Kevin if your motive in this is to really make a change I’d hate to see all of your hard work get dismissed as just another web guy with conspiracy theories and hearsay, who likes to doctor cards in his spare time.<br /><br />Please don’t get offended by my comment I really have no real issue with you and you have always made attempts to answer my questions no matter how pointed without crying like a baby.LOL <br /><br />I also find your posts on doctoring very interesting as well, but I’m still a little confused where you’re going with this stuff, I may be the only one still but who knows.<br /><br />P.S. What’s your connection with Rob Lifson and the tag quote on your posts on Full Count, acn you elaborate on this. Having a spooner with Mastro raises enough eyebrows, but a guy with your talents being tight with Rob also makes me scratch my head and think some unsavory thoughts.LOL I hope you can understand and perhaps clarify?<br /><br /><br />**Edited to add Kevin's story, as I found it very intresting to say the least, Kevin I hope you dont mind if so email me and I delete it but I think folks should hear it.**<br />

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>who know a lot more than anyone who posted in this thread.<br /><br />Jim,why does one need to know the history of a raw card......if you are interested in buying raw cards?<br />You need only to have the confidence to know how to grade/detect issues with them! heck there are tons of dealers who would buy ungraded vintage cards!<br />Do you not think Chad Dreier has not purchased tons of raw cards?<br />I'll be he is quite comfortable doing so without any concern for the past owners.<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Here is the message of the master.<br /><br />Every word is quoted in an e-mail from Kevin to me except what is in the parenthesis which is my editorial comment or explanation on what Kevin is saying.<br /><br />It is much easier to get a lower grade into a mid grade(my exact point) or get a bump(on a low grade) and one can probably do it every time. Like you mentioned, there are more problems that need to be fixed, its easier to cover up and more leverage. Even a good soak can give a card much better eye appeal, enough for a grade bump.<br /><br />I do think that on a percentage basis alone, there are more altered cards in 7 and above holders. Its much more difficult, requires some skill, but is by far more rewarding.<br /><br />My view for prewar alterations<br /><br />2-3 through 6--higher volume<br />7 and above--higher percentage<br /><br />Postwar--a wash.<br /><br />My comment--this all makes sense to me--more lower grade cards have been altered prewar but a higher percentage of higher grade.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Well as you can see Wonka, Kevin's comments did not relate to what he posted on Full Count. Personally I thought it was against the rules on Net 54 to copy posts from Full Count and post them here so I did not.<br /><br />Obviously what Kevin says on Full Count is explosive if true.<br /><br />And make no mistake--Kevin is a true expert on card alteration.

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Best. Thread. Ever.<br /><br />-Al

Jim Crandell's personal thread
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Big news.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Yup and it will be interesting what the grading companies say.<br /><br />Stay tuned.

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Posted By: <b>Gene Palmer</b><p>Is it just me or does anyone else think this thread reminds them of the whack-a-mole game?

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I’m the first to admit, consider "everything" I say as hearsay unless I see it with my own eyes. If I theorize I will state it as a thought or opinion.<br /><br />My relationship with Lifson is an exchange of emails in which he was very complimentary about my contribution to the hobby. It is an honor to be associated with his fine name. The quote is something he said in an email to me when I was disgruntled about collectors who are angry at me for no reason. Also, thank you for bringing it to this board. <br /><br />Contrary to your belief John, I don’t need to step up my role, give a background, answer to you or share my motives. There are no motives, I haven't sold a card in years and the list of those I have helped in one way or another, I’m proud to say, is very long. <br /><br />Can’t a guy just do something good for the sake of doing something good? My guess is no...not in this hobby. It’s polluted by the love of money, which is no knock against the investors. The rewards are having met several fine individuals and some great friends, plus being banned from everywhere except Net54. <br />

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>just wondering,did you ask Rob if he has ever altered a card?<br />Jim,how about Dave Foreman?<br /><br />have you men asked them this????<br />their replies are?<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>Why is it easier to cover up an alteration to a low grade card than to a high grade card? Other than perhaps soaking, which probably in and of itself is not sufficient to upgrade a card to high grade, why would the typical alteration methods (e.g., trimming, rebuilt corners, added coloring) be more difficult to detect with a vg-ex card than with a nr mt/mt card? I don't understand that. Assuming the grading company is equally diligent looking for such things with low grade cards as they are with high grade cards, why should more things slip through with the low grade cards? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>your mind is deferred by all the other imperfections so much more obvious<br />on a low grade card. kind of like the two guys with 22 inch biceps but one has a big beer gut! the guy with the small stomach's biceps are more noticeable even though the same size as the other guy~ <br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>CoreyRS.hanus</b><p>I politely disagree. To an experienced grading company that knows what to look for and is as on guard for low grade cards as they are for high grade cards, the telltale signs of trimming, rebuilt corners, added coloring should be equally discernable regardless of the condition of the card. To use the terminology from your example, they should not be thrown off by the big beer gut.