Sean

Listed here are the 9 subjects in the 460-only series printed with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs. My theory (which has stood
the test of time) is PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 and El PRINCIPE de GALES cards are Mutually-Exclusive in the 460-only series.

So, I guarantee you that you need not search for a Merkle with an EPDG back.



460-only Series......9 subjects with PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 backs (COMPLETE).
None of these are found with EPDG backs.

460-only series PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42......9 subjects (COMPLETE)

Chase (Trophy)
Latham
Marquard (follow thru)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)


Conversely

460-only series El Principe de Gales................37 subjects (COMPLETE)

Abbaticchio (blue sleeves)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (follow thru)
Bergen (catching)
Bescher (hands over head)
Bridwell (portrait-cap)
Camnitz (hands over head)
Camnitz (arm at side)
Chance (bat)
Crandall (portrait-cap)
Devore
Duffy
Larry Doyle (portrait)
Ford
Frill
Gandil
Geyer
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hand on waist)
Hummel

Lake, St. Louis (ball)
McGraw (portrait-cap)
McGraw (glove at hip)
Meyers (portrait)
Murray (portrait)
Needham
Oldring (batting)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Pfeffer
Schulte (back view)
Sheckard (glove)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Tinker (bat on shoulder)
Wheat



TED Z
.

Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)
 


* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards


OK, here is my complete run of the McGraw (glove) cards. Exactly 13 - T206 backs were printed on each of the Exclusive 12 subjects in the 460-only series.
I'm attempting to complete the run on all the Exclusive 12 subjects (12 x 13 backs = 156 cards).


Only UZIT known with this McGraw
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...UZITxSGC30.jpg. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUsgc.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tory30xx12.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUsgcB.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...VxPd4xPBxx.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SOVxPd4xPB.jpg
Factory #42...................Factory #42




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LxAB460xOM.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...xAB460xOMb.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...YCLE460x18.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CLE460x18b.jpg



OK guys, let's try this one more time. Show-n-Tell us of your T206 back Runs.


TED Z
.

Ted,

I did a bit of research, and am fairly confident that Factory 17 was in Richmond, VA, on "Tobacco Row". In an article written Sep 12, 1908, in Tobacco Leaf, Volume 45, Page 32, it mentions this:

"The Federal Cigar Co's plant, which recently closed down several weeks ago, has resumed work. This plant was formerly known as the Whitlock branch of the American Cigar Co. Here Beaux Arts, a little cigar, are made as well as El Principe cigarettes and other brands."

El Principe De Gales is also mentioned by name in full, a bit earlier in the article.

I have not yet found anything which specifically says that the P. Whitlock Branch of ATC is Factory 17, just that the branch was in Richmond and produced EDPG.

Ted,

Update on the previous .... I did find, on cigarhistory.com, mentions of The P. Whitlock Branch and it being Factory 17. It mentions that OVC, another tobacco brand, all carried a Fact. 17, 2nd Dist. VA" designation until 1920, when it then changed to read "Fact. 17, VA."

Jason

I really appreciate your information regarding Factory #17.

Thanks much,


TED Z
.

Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)
 

OK, let's try this T206 " Run Fun " one more once.

Here is an incomplete run of my favorite Cobb. I have no expectations of completing this run. But, I just enjoy the thrill of the hunt.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sHand50xbx.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMILLx50_1.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...LDMILLb25x.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...NT460x50xx.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...P460x25b_1.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...0TyCobb50x.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yCobb50xbx.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tcap42ovpt.jpg


TED Z
.

Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duAB460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGxOMx13.jpg
Pictured here are the 6 toughest backs that were printed on the Exclusive 12 cards


And here's my Russ Ford back run from the Exclusive 12 group with a bit of trivia included......

Ford holds a pitching record that I'm quite certain has never been equalled. Most games WON in his rookie season (26-6) in 1910.
Furthermore, a total of 48 games won in his first two seasons.

OK, I need UZIT and EPDG to complete this 13-card run.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...2FordRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...FordRHx50b.jpg



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SCxOMxTolx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...vSCxOMxTol.jpg
Factory #42



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...2ovptPBx25.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ovptPBx25b.jpg
Factory #42



Factory #30
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Cfactory30.jpg



TED Z
.

Tinker Bat Off -- Just 1 away
 

After finally locating the SC 360,25, I am now one back (AB 460) from completing a T206 back run of the Tinker Bat Off pose (I threw in a few T213s for good measure). It all started when i picked the Uzit up at auction and went from there. Thanks to Adam (who got me the Pied Fact 42 (real rare!!), Zach (who helped me with both this and my Evers Yellow Sky run), Mac (who sold me the SC 350, 25 -- surprisingly very tough to find), and Michael, Derek, Sean and many other Net54 members who have kept eyes out for me.

Now, who has my T206 Tinker Bat off AB 460???!!!!

Hey Ryan, They look great all grouped together. I'm still looking for a couple AB460's. One for each of us.

Congratulation on the SC350/25 and good luck with the AB460.

Do you have or are you going after one of the factory 30 scraps?

these are not my cards
Attachment 292011
Attachment 292012

Ron -- sounds good. I too will keep my eye out for twins!

Pat -- theoretically, yes. If I come across a no-print, I would like to add it to the collection. However, I have spent enough $$ on this endeavor, and I know the AB 460 will cost a pretty penny, so my interest in the no-print is somewhat directly connected to the price tag; although, I do have mucho to trade.

Ryan, I love that Uzit. It's only a matter of time until you get that AB 460.

Elite 11
 

Ted, and/or anyone who knows ...

In regards to the Elite 11, I have read through the threads and the posted thread from 2006-2007, but I was hoping you could help me understand a few things and educate me.

- What factors led to the exclusion of Conroy and Pastorius from the ranks of the Elite 11? Was it a matter of regionality? (Is that a word?)
I may have answered my own question on this. Both of these two cards also have SC350 confirmed backs, which I assume is the reason for their exclusion.

- If they are not part of the Elite 11, what is the thoughts/theories on why they are scarce in the typically common P350 set? Pastorius was released in Aug 1909, which could explain his short run as part of the 350 series, but Conroy remained with Wash. through 1911, and his variation (With Bat) wasn't produced until PG3, which was late 1910.

- What factors led to the inclusion of Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw?

- With the EPDG backs being found at a much higher rate than the P350's, is it possible that EPDG back run started later in the 150 series, prior to the the 350 series starting up? It would make sense that these players would be more common with an EPDG back if that were the case.



I'm sorry if this has been addressed, I've attempted to absorb a large amount of T206 information over the past few weeks! :D

#1....The only 350 series backs that the Elite 11 were printed with are PIEDMONT 350 and EPDG.

Conroy and Pastorius were printed with PIEDMONT 350, EPDG, and, SWEET CAP #25 & #30.


#2.... " What factors led to the inclusion of Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw ? "

In recent years, Scot Reader's vast T206 survey indicated that Schaefer, Spencer, and Shaw are also part of the Elite 11 group.


TED Z
.

Thanks Ted. I came across the Elite 12 thread from last year after posting my original questions and updated my post. You're knowledge, and willingness to share, is greatly appreciated!

That's an incredible back run Ryan! Nice work. An AB460 will turn up someday. That Tinker Uzit and Ted's McGraw Uzit being on the same page is almost too much eye candy!

Good questions Jason. Ted pretty much answered already, but I'd add that Pastorius and Conroy fielding were both also printed with Old Mill backs. I hadn't noticed that those two were tough with Piedmont 350 backs. If they are, that adds an interesting wrinkle to the puzzle.

I think you're on the right track with the idea that EPDG backs were printed at the end of the 150 portion of the 150-350 Series. But, there's no consensus as of yet. There are some recent threads where we've been debating it on here. Pat R has done some great research on the topic recently.

Thanks Luke. I'm trying to pose intelligent questions, most of which I'm sure have been answered or at leased inquired about at some time or another, but I'm still in the very early phases of learning.

In regards to the Pastorius and Conroy, I focused on them because of their initial inclusion in the Elite 11, back in 2006. Though they have since been excluded for reasons already covered, they are much harder to find in Piedmont 350 than 150 series. Based on the limited number graded by PSA which denote the factory, 39 150's have been graded, but only two 350's. 19.5:1 ratio is pretty high. Again, small sample size, but telling. With Conroy, it's a ratio of almost 8:1, with 37 150's and only four 350's.

Pastorius can be explained away by his August release, but the reason the Conroy may be harder to find seems less obvious.

Interestingly, Neither Pastorius nor Conroy have a confimed graded example, at least not from PSA, SGC, or BVG, of an EPDG card for either of these players. t206 resource does list the Pastorius/EPDG as confirmed and the Conroy as possible, but I find this to be noteworthy.

SGC does have a single EPDG Conroy, which is not specified as Fielding or With Bat, and could possibly be the Fielding version, but I find that doubtful. They do both have PSA graded examples of both Old Mill and Sovereign 150 however.

Lots of interesting wrinkles, as this actually contradicts the thought that EPDG was printed earlier than Piedmont 350.

Maybe someone here has EPDG cards of these two they can share?

Hey Ryan

Fantastic display of your Tinker run. Thanks for sharing it with us.

I've been searching for his AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 card for many years to complete my AB 460 run (74 cards).
So when the next one shows up there be at least 4 of us contending for it. It should be very interesting.

I enjoyed talking with you at the Philly Show last month.


TED Z
.

I don't think those two being left off the EPDG print run contradicts anything. Plenty of poses were not printed with EPDG and then later printed with all the other 350 series backs. If they were left off EPDG print runs and then pulled early from P350 production, I think that would just be a coincidence.

Thanks Ted, and great meeting you too! Yes, it appears that tinker AB is quite a hot commodity!

T215
 

Hey guys,

Tougher than the T206 AB 460 card of Tinker (bat off shoulder) is his T215-1 card.


TED Z
.

T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eetCap11xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lCYoung12x.jpg
........... Two Pennsylvanians ........



I have a few cards which are missing one of the ink passes in the 6-color process of the T206 cards. I know of numerous T206 color error cards, so if you have some
post them here.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobb8.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PinlWillis.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n150Willis.jpg




The rightmost Lundgren card is missing the Blue ink pass. This is a very rare occurrence with T206's....since the Blue ink was an intervening application in the 6-color
printing process.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg

. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n4versions.jpg



TED Z
.

Contribute to this wonderful thread
 

Have really enjoyed reading all the great posts in this thread, and a huge kudos to TedZ for all you do to keep the eye candy and knowledge flowing (equally fun from this collector's perspective).

I collected cards (and comics) as a kid but never reached the echelon of T-cards. I quit and sold them when I was 18, wanting money for college-related fun (what a stupid move!). Anyhow, fast forward 15 years and I got back into comic books agressively. Put together the #1 registry set for Superman #1-423, among some other prized possessions. Then, more recently, I caught the card bug again and went straight to the T-206 set as I always wanted any and every card from the set, but especially the Toronto players (hometown as a kid)

And here we are today, where my quest continues....have a set of 522 but working on a fully PSA graded set in 4+. I think I'm 27th or 28th on the registry, but still filling in some holes, too. I know that the registry is not everyone's bag, I just enjoy the hunt and competition, I suppose. I am dumbfounded by the registry's top set, with an average grade of 8....pretty darn close to the highest grade extant on every card!

My goal is to ultimately upgrade to a set of PSA 6-7 (but will probably remain a set of 522....we'll see).

The variety of T206 is wonderful. The different leagues and from two countries, the backs, the poses, and so many epic players who have legacies that will withstand the test of time!

I know this is a lame post without pictures ("PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN!") but I promise I'm working on them! Trying to create some group shots of the set, and might have to start posting while holes still remain in the set. But I also don't want to use up too much bandwidth on this tremendous thread with multiples, so I figured better to wait!

Finally, to all our veterans - Thank you for your service!

Please keep all the information coming!

Best
Joey

Attachment 294531

Attachment 294532

Attachment 294533

Attachment 294534

Attachment 294535

Ted, I have a bunch of these missing color cards, mostly missing red. Too many to post all of them. I also threw in a scrap, which isn't really the same.

Here's a Baker missing most of the blue pass, and of course the Plank is missing the dark blue.


Attachment 294537


Attachment 294536

Ted, about that Willis of yours that is missing color:what is the back? Mine is a Hindu, and they frequently seem to be much lighter.

Roulette44
 

Hi Joey

I really appreciate your complimentary words. I've learned a lot these past 40 years completing sets.....1887 Allen & Ginter > 1987 TOPPS (multiple sets of many of the major sets).
I believe in sharing information which I have gleaned from extensive research in such sets as the 1888 N162, the T205 & T206, the 1933 Goudey, the 1941 Play Ball, the 1949 Leaf,
and the 1948-1953 Bowman (BB & FB) sets. Oh, and I cannot forget 1952 Topps.

And, this forum is a great stage for the exchange of meaningful info regarding all aspects of this hobby.


Thanks again,

TED Z
.

Hi Sean

I'm familiar with the Red > Orange / brown HINDU phenomena. I've had some of these color error T206's in the past.

Anyhow, my color error Willis is a PIEDMONT 150 card. The normal Willis is a SOVEREIGN 150.


Thanks for posting your color errors.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/acobb8.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PinlWillis.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...n150Willis.jpg
.................................................. .................................................. .................................. PIEDMONT 150 .................................. SOVEREIGN 150


TED Z
.

T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's
 

Another T206 color error.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ereign350x.jpg
...................... POLAR BEAR .......................................... SOVEREIGN 350


TED Z
.

T206 color printing errors
 

Here's a color printing error not seen too often.

Hey guys,
How's about showing off some of your unusual T206's ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...geYellow50.jpg
..................... PIEDMONT 350 ......................................... PIEDMONT 350


TED Z
.

T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's
 

A few more color printing errors......
http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/d...nklingpink.jpg



TED Z
.

Missing colors can be tough sometimes.

Beck is missing two colors, Huggins isn't, but is from a group I don't see often that always has the player looking very pale. Downey and Lobert are both faded.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=18319

Meyers with a really odd but factory cut. The result of either debris in the stack of cards being cut, or a sheet somewhere below it in the stack being folded over.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...pictureid=7029

And a weird handcut but I don't think trimmed card. There must have been more in the group, but I didn't know enough at the time to find and buy them.
http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...pictureid=1877

Missing yellow?

Nice pink Bradley. :)

T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's
 

Hi David S.

Here is a Huggins printing error that is very similar to your Bradley card......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...vereign50x.jpg


TED Z
.

Steve,

Do you think this Clarke is factory-cut? I've always thought it might be. The image came out smaller than I expected, but if you save it and look at in Paint, it's big enough to get a good look at. The top and bottom both have the same notch. Kind of like your Myers above.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1910-T206-B...53.m1438.l2649


That Ewing card is what a trim would look like if I did it.:eek: I too think it's a hand cut and not a "trim"..

T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's
 

Orange (instead of Red) 150-Series Chance (portrait) cards are often found with brown HINDU backs.
This one is a PIEDMONT card.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iedmont150.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...vereign150.jpg
............ PIEDMONT 150 ......................... SOVEREIGN 150



TED Z
.

350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs
 

You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.

Hi

The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've
designated as Group A and Group B)......



Group A

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...1cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards14x.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Group B
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards13x.jpg


All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead,
they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911.

Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards.

Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards.


This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet......


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...x460Fac30x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460Fac30bx.jpg



Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards.



TED Z
.

The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign350x13.jpg


Back in 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book "the Monster", red HINDU cards very virtually unknown. The red HINDU back is not mentioned in "The Monster".
My understanding is that only a half a dozen of these very rare cards were known back in the 1970's, and T206 collectors did not really know what to make of them.

Since then, red HINDU cards have "trickled out of the woodwork". In recent years, a find of 13 red HINDU cards occurred in Texas. Ten of these 13 cards are subjects in the
460-only series Exclusive 12 group. The red HINDU's in the 350/460 series are considerably more difficult to find than the Exclusive 12 guys with red HINDU.

For you rare back collectors here are factors (rules) to keep in mind when you are chasing after certain T206 front/back combos......

In the 350/460 series......the red HINDU cards are "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards (printed circa..late 1910).

Furthermore, T206's with these backs are mutually-exclusive with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT cards (printed early 1911).

This hypothesis was first presented on this forum in April 2010 in this fascinating thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=122474&page=2

This mutually-exclusive factor is the result of American Lithographic dividing the 63 subjects in the 350/460 series into 2 print groups (at the end of their T206 production.
Circa..late 1910 > early 1911. I have designated these 2 print groups as Group A and Group B. The red HINDU's and BROAD LEAF 460 backs were printed on these subjects
in Group A.

Group A
.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...1cards25xx.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...14cards14x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan77/images/rh.jpg

Checklist…...total = 44

To date, 32 subjects have been confirmed with the red HINDU back in the 350/460 series.

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Cobb (red portrait)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Dougherty (arm in air)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)

Magee (bat)
McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago)
Murphy (batting)
O'Leary (hands on knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (catching)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (fielding)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)

The following 3 subjects have yet to be confirmed with the red HINDU back. I expect all three will eventually be found.

Ames (hands above head)
Mathewson (dark cap)
Reulbach (no glove)


460-only series......Exclusive 12

These 12 confirmed subjects are the only red HINDU cards in the 460-only series. Furthermore, these 12
are definitely more available with the red HINDU back than the above listed subjects in the 350/460 series.
.
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460x42x25x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...460x42x25x.jpg

Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummel
McGraw (glove at hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat



Red HINDU is one of my favorite T206 backs. Currently, I have 14 of them. Here's a sampling of HINDU's in my collection.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DuffyRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uffyRHx50b.jpg



My first red HINDU (acquired in the 1980's)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg



Hey guys...... how's about posting some of your red HINDU cards here....let's see how many different cards we can come up with ?



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, here's a quote from Heitman:

Most Hindu backs are printed in brown and according to the theory contain only fronts which were issued with the Series 150 cards. However, recently at least six Hindu backs with a distinct red rather than brown back printing have been found. All six fronts correspond to player poses issued only in the 460 series. Unfortunately, not enough is known about this apparent anomaly to theorize about the Hindu red printed backs."

So Heitman was aware of them, but had only the most basic information about them. I'll try to post a scan of my only RH in a couple days.

The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards
 

1st Issue (Nov-Dec 1962)

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...RTHOBBYIST.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ISTpage8FN.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...onsterBook.jpg


Hi Sean

I mixed up my information. Frank Nagy, who was one of the first collectors to publish a checklist the T206 set in the Sport Hobbyist,
made no mention of the red HINDU back.

Bill Heitman told me that only half a dozen red HINDU cards were known back in the 1970's.

Sorry, about the mix-up.

Anyway, don't you find it very strange that red HINDU's were virtually unknown 50-60 years after they were printed and issued ?



TED Z
.

As a matter of fact, I find it very surprising. I can understand why a Piedmont Fact 42 or Doyle variation could go unnoticed, but the Hindu Red should stand out from the Hindu Browns. And while rare, there were still plenty of them around, especially the exclusive twelve , which are easy to find with a RH back.

Cobb backs were incredibly rare, and even the MAGIE is relatively rare and easy to miss, yet they were known. How could no one ever see a Red Hindu and say Hey, this back is different? :confused:

By the way, I love that Donlin. I sometimes think about doing a Donlin back run. He's my favorite player from that era... a stereotypical drunk Irishman who could really hit. :D

Hey Sean

You forgot to add acting to "Turkey" Mike's resume. His desire to perform on a stage (or in the movies) prevented him
from being in the BB Hall of Fame (.333 lifetime BA). Any, given week when the TCM channel is featuring Silent Movies
you most likely will see Donlin in the cast. The most notable movie he is in is "The Great Train Robbery" (a classic).

I have a head-start on you.....here are some of my Donlin cards. I have some more somewhere.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dmont42x25.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ycle460x25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...le460x25bx.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ct8ovpt50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t8ovpt50xb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...p460sc42pb.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...p460sc42pb.jpg


TED Z
.

Great Donlins Ted. Don't you also have a Red Cross or Victory somewhere?

And you and Pete each have a Factory 8 overprint as well. :cool: Excellent.

I finally got around to scanning my Red Hindu. This is my only RH; it's part of my Cubs set.


Attachment 296918 Attachment 296919

Red HINDU cards
 

Hey Sean

Your red HINDU Chance would fit perfectly in my Chance run. Currently, I have approx. 14 different backs with this Chance (yellow portrait).
Perhaps we can work out a trade.

Anyhow, continuing from my last post, here's a show of the red HINDU cards of my Exclusive 12 guys.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...andilRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ndilRHx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eHindu25bx.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...vereign25x.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...2FordRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...FordRHx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...duHummel50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...uHummel50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dHINDUx50b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...efferRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fferRHx50b.jpg



TED Z
.

May sound odd, but that's a really solid PSA 1!!!

Red HINDU cards
 

Whoops....I forgot my beat-up McGraw. If anyone on this forum has a Vg to Ex red HINDU McGraw (for sale or trade) please contact me......
tedzan11@comcast.net


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...cGrawRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...GrawRHx50b.jpg


TED Z
.

Red HINDU cards
 

Some years ago, I observed that the rare red HINDU cards were more available with the Exclusive 12 subjects. To prove this point,
I began to acquire Exclusive 12 red HINDU cards starting October 2013. Within 2 months, I had 11 of them with red HINDU backs.
I still needed Sheckard (glove) to complete this run of 12.
Well, this elusive card took me 17 months to finally complete (April 2015) this sub-set.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ckardRHx50.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...kardRHx50b.jpg


TED Z
T206 Reference
.

OK ... I'll bite :) I think I've asked this before in another thread ... but no one seemed to know at the time.

Is there any reference to how the T206 cards were were packaged and shipped to the different factories from the ALC? For instance ... were the sheets put in cardboard boxes, loaded on a train and then sent to each of the different factories in NY, Virginia, Ohio, etc? I'm trying to imagine a train load of T-206's passing through the Virginia country-side on their way to a Piedmont factory :)

Actually ... after re-reading my post from last night ... I got to realizing that the T206 cards were cut by the ALC ... correct? That is ... the ALC printed the fronts ... the ALC printed the various factory backs ... and then the ALC cut the sheets ... yes? Then the T206's were probably sent to all the different factories via rail. And then who knows how they got to the factories after reaching the rail station (car, horse/carriage, trolley ...?). Just curious. But not sure anyone else is :) Thanks!

Hi Jerry
You got it right....these gems we love so much were designed, printed, cut into 1 7/16 by 2 5/8 inch rectangles in this building in downtown New York City.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg

......and then sent by rail to the various Tobacco Factory's. Most (if not all) of these factory's had railroad lines adjacent to them.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Thanks for the clarification Ted. Not sure why I'm so interested in the logistics ... but I have been reading an online newspaper from 1908 (NY Tribune) and it has peaked my interest in what everyday life was like during the Deadball Era. This all started when I began collecting "T" cards ... and then re-playing the 1908 NY Giants season via Strat-O-Matic baseball. There sure were a lot of suicides and traffic fatalities in 1908. Apparently it was a pretty brutal time period to live in. At least in NY City.

Anyway ... whenever I hold a raw T206 in my hand I often wonder where all that card has traveled during its life. Kind of strange I know. But the history of these little pieces of cardboard ... and the players they depict I find fascinating :) Thanks for the reply. And Merry Christmas to all!

T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and, post your T206 story's
 

MERRY CHRISTMAS



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...INDUbk25xa.jpg..http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...jones50xab.jpg



And, HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all of you Net54er's



TED Z
.

Happy Holidays to all...

Attachment 299885

INDEX to this T206 Reference thread's posts and story's....UPDATED
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...fdBaker12x.jpg



Post #1......Introduction....starting with Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

Plus, an early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
Lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's in this thread exploring various aspects of the T206 series (including surveys). Resulting in 363 meaningful posts.

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted


Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1)

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131..Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 234.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #242 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Post #262.....T206 Southern League cards (re-visited)

Posts #263 >> 270.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #271 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 330.....T206 150-only subjects......


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z
.

T206 Reference....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....and SHOW US YOUR MAGIE CARDS
 

I acquired a Magie card for my first T206 set many years ago. It was before the grading "craze" started.
I graded this Magie fairly as a Vg-Ex card. It cost me only $600 back then. Eventually I sold it to a good
friend. Then, when I started working on my all-PIEDMONT T206 set, I acquired this Magie......

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...MagieSGC10.jpg





The Magie card is only found with the PIEDMONT 150 back. American Lithographic caught this error quite early in their press
runs.Typically, their 150 series press runs printed the PIEDMONT backs first (on the pre-printed sheets of the fronts).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edmont150b.jpg



So, let's see how many how many Magie cards we can display here ?

Show-n-tell us about your Magie cards.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Fun thread Ted. Happy New Year.

Here is my Magie (sorry it's sideways, doing this off phone waiting for kid's wrestling practice to end). No magic story to this one- when I got back into collecting about 3 years ago, I went right for the t206s. First I bought a high-grade cy young with glove (my favorite), and this was my second purchase - just bc its iconic. I still think it's undergraded (a PSA 3) but what's in a grade?

Here ya go Ryan nice Magie.
Attachment 301870

It is a nice Magie, but I have to add that the Cy Young glove card is one of my least favorites. But to each his own.

Here's my Magie, purchased in 2003, about a year after I began the set:

Attachment 301873

Thanks Pat, for straightening me out. Sean, I think the cy young with glove is one of the ugliest cards around - I think he looks like a bloated bum with a big round head. And, I think that's I why I love it so much (that and it was the first big t206 I owned as a kid).

Hey Ted, not to derail your thread, but maybe in the future we could all post our five favorite T206 cards. :)

Yowzas. Beautiful cards and Magies, gentlemen!


What's the going rate for an entry level one nowadays? 5k?

I think that it's about $7-8K for a decent PSA 1.

I agree with Sean. 6K lower conditioned Magie/8K better conditioned SGC 10-PSA 1. I love the Magie error, such an iconic card! I think without a doubt this card will continue to appreciate in value regardless of condition.

Magie
 

Some nice MAGIE's, guys. Thanks for posting them here.

Here's another Sherry Magee error card of a different type for you....this time it's a picture problem (uncorrected).

The 1910 NADJA Caramels (E104) card of Bris Lord actually portrays Magee.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lord1910WC.jpg


TED Z
.

Ted, interesting that His hair part is on the other side from the t206 pic.

Hey Ryan

Which Magee image is correct ?

Is the 1910 NADJA the reverse of the T206 image....or vice-versa ? ?


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lord1910WC.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iedmont150.jpg


TED Z
.

I think they both are correct. Each uniform had a different hair style to fit the clothes. I definately like the A uniform better than the P, so if I had to choose, I take the 1910 hairdo

T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc....SHOW US YOUR 6 FAVORITE T206's
 

I will start this show with my 6 sentimental favorites (displayed in order of when I acquired them)......


My first T206, which I acquired at the Willow Grove Show in 1981.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...aseblue50x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...seblue50xb.jpg





FYI....the majority of the Piedmont 150 green Cobb's are offset (top-to-bottom) as this card is.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...iedmont150.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edmont150b.jpg





http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sHand50xbx.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nkSC150x30.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...SC150x30xb.jpg





This McGraw / UZIT card is unique (if anyone else on this forum knows of another one, please respond).

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ZITxSGC30x.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...loveUZITxb.jpg




http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx25.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...websize/rh.jpg


TED Z
.

Yes, please, if someone else knows of another Uzit McGraw, please sell it to me! I would really appreciate it. Great stuff Ted.

Hi Eric

I'm regularly searching for another McGraw with a UZIT back. If I find one before you do, I will immediately contact you.


TED Z
.

Much appreciated Ted. And a spare Plank would be great as well!