No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?

Call me confused, but what I "don't really get" is these kinds of justifications. What you are saying is that Rick sells my stuff fine, I get my money, so what's everyone's problem? I don't think there is ANY question about Rick getting the money for his consignees. He is obvious doing something right for his CONSIGNEES. But what about the buyers being screwed?

Sorry but to me, these kinds of posts reek of the "I'm getting mine so I don't have a problem with it" kind of response.

Just poking around on some cards, found this gem in VCP
 

1970 Topps Rico Petrocelli, PSA 9

7/30/14 eBay $35.00
3/2/14 probstein123 $202.50
1/10/13 eBay $42.00
12/16/11 eBay $29.99
6/2/11 eBay $30.00
3/16/11 eBay $22.00
2/13/11 eBay $28.51
7/14/10 eBay $30.00
11/20/09 eBay $29.99
4/3/09 eBay $52.50
5/27/08 eBay $30.00
4/29/08 eBay $45.00
1/9/07 eBay $36.11

no way that card is shilled to 200.....if at 80 dollars you really going to risk 'winning' the card at 3x market price when its your own card..pleeeezzz..

Pleeeezzz, Really your post are great. They always bring a smile to my face.

Why do you think shillers pay when they win their own auction listing instead of just canceling the transaction to avoid the fees.

Not attacking you on this Leon, but a thought for Probstein. Blocking the bidder is a joke - how hard is it for the "shiller" to create a new account? If he really wants to clean it up he needs to start blocking consignors who have the shilled auctions. Before anyone gets to crazy with me on this - I'm not saying he should immediately ban consignors of all suspect auctions, but he can certainly ban those who have multiple auctions that display this suspect bidding activity.

Come on Jeff, nothing to conclude here - just two balls to the walls registry guys bidding aggressively in an open, transparent auction...

Exactly! Funny how these bidding wars only seem to come up in Probstein and PWCC auctions.

+1....I have had some of the same cards both these guys have had. I have NEVER had the kind of bidding wars they have. I have also seen my higher grade/nicer example card sell for less than their same/lower grade card. More examples than I care to mention. Some of it can be people that only want to deal exclusively with them - I get that. However, we are ALL selling on the exact same platform - Ebay. For buyers to bid up their items, and totally ignore other examples that are selling for less....I'm not buying it.

I've noticed this too.
 

... I follow the 1957 Topps set in PSA 7 and 8 to keep a finger on the pulse of the economy....the ''sold'' section in the search results is a head-scratcher sometimes , until you view the 'seller'.

..this is a great thread ; thanks to all the posters ; but this is the first time I've ever suffered a popcorn headache..

..

I've collected some 1950s sets in high grade, card by card -- and never once did I care who the seller was unless he had zero or very weird feedback. No one wants to deal exclusively with PWCC and Probstein unless you're a shill bidder.

Still trying to get my head around this recent Aaron RC although I am told it was legit.

Latest Auction Prices for: PSA 8 - Average Price: $7,727.00


12/5/14 Greg Bussineau Auction | Image 17 $9,240.00
10/22/14 eBay Auction | Image prewarcardcollector e***m 69 $16,988.00
10/6/14 eBay Auction | Image prewarcardcollector c***a 20 $8,600.00
8/25/14 eBay Auction | Image cmlwvu a***r 43 $6,300.00
2/28/14 eBay Image ksp1140 a***a Best Offer $5,250.00
2/9/14 eBay Image cardcountry t***a Best Offer $6,750.00
1/22/14 eBay Image memorylaneinc -***o BIN $7,745.00

[QUOTE=Leon;1367663]No it's not unreasonable. We in the auction house business do monitor our auctions. No, we aren't perfect but we will respond to any situation that doesn't look to be on the up and up. And I know for a fact several other auction houses do it too as I have gotten calls from them concerning these kinds of issues.

And I am with you David, because someone submits a card to a company and doesn't shill it doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and happen often) with their other consignors. I personally don't have proof of the Probstein issues other than what has been pointed out on this board. And they are worrisome.

In Probstein's defense, I asked him about this one time and he sent me a list of at least a hundred (I think it was a few hundred) bidders he had blocked on ebay, due to these type issues. Is he doing enough, I don't know?[/QUOTE

I find it hard to believe his block bidder list is solely predicated on possible shill bidders, more likely on bidders who have called him out on specific issues they have had with him or accused him of wrong doings. He doesn't want those low feedback dings to kill his ebay discounts.

As with several of the other large sellers on ebay (PWCC 4SC/NESC, battersbox) who are a part of the Emerging Verticals program, each of their additional ebay discounts (the form of discount varies from seller to seller)are pre negotiated and locked in. These sellers have an Emerging Verticals Account Manager,who is over the sports card category, to personally assist with concerns that arise. The goal of this program is to drive sales for ebay (category by category) by increasing the sales of the largest sellers within each category. A top down approach to driving sales.

This is the explanation that I received from an ebay EV AM of a different ebay category.

Take-home message is that if you are not part of the 'Emerging Verticals' program, you are part of the 'Bent Over Vertically' program.

lol!

eBay is a publicly traded entity that needs to satisfy analysts quarterly earnings estimates. That is where all of this originates.

Absolutely agree with this. I have put up cards on eBay a grade level over the ones sold in those two auctions a week later at the same or lesser price and they sit and rot. I know if I am an underbidder and the next week the same card in better shape pops up for a lesser or equal price I am on it. Add to that the 'loyalists' these guys seem to have and the stinky factor goes off the charts.

For those not too bothered by shilling, would you support.eBay changing their rules and allowing sellers to bid on their own items? It really is the same thing, only the former is fraudulent while the latter would be transparent.

I don't think anyone is "not too bothered" by shilling, I just think we are limited by what we can do about it.


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Excellent post . Accurate and funny.

I stay away from Probstein and the others mention. I know they are shilled.

The whole process lends itself to it.

The ball card world has a lot of unscrupulous people in it.

Some are...some aren't. When I see a common PSA 3 sell for just as much as the same card in a PSA 6, then yes, I think something funny is going on with the PSA 3. There is nothing that I can add that hasn't been rehashed time and time again.

Hi Guys, I normally post on the football board, hope you don't mind me jumping in... Here are 2 scenarios:

Case 1: Card has market value ~100, high bidder at 80 with hidden reserve at 100.01

The card would have sold for 80 except the owner of the cards jumps in with a schill bid of 99.99

This is basically the OP's case - cheated out of 20 bucks in my scenario. The amount doesn't matter - it's illegal, immoral, etc. I get it.

Case 2: Same as Case 1, except schill bidder gets aggressive and bids 104.99. Now he wins!

What happens next? Does he say: "Um, excuse me Mr. Consigner, I accidentally won my own item, can you please auction it again?" How awkward would that be? And even if the consigner had no ethics, how would the consigner know it isn't a sting?

Does the schiller just quietly buy his own item? Let's do the math. Say he paid 95 originally, 104.99 + 3.50 shipping, so he's up to 203.49. But he gets a consignment check for 104.99*.88 = 92.39. So he's out 111.10 on the card now. If he sends it in again and gets say 110 on the second attempt - he still loses. Plus he paid to ship it in twice which I didn't even count. Is it worth it? Might it not be more rational to let the card sell on its own (legally) rather than play this schilling game?

If anyone out there isn't already burnt out on this toplic, thanks for your thoughts.

ive mentioned this many times as a reason shilling really polices itself...on the big auction houses you would lose 20 percent...yeah some may want to protect what they think is a steal and pay the 20 percent..but really how many times can you do that as 10-20% really eats away at any profit you want to realize... just doesn't make sense as well if you have a 200 dollar card and its up to 250 which for example is 50 over VCP..why risk 'winning' the card if lose 10-20% when already way above VCP .

I keep seeing how people are saying the same card a week later on PROBSTEIN auction goes 3x what it went for last week...it really doesn't make sense...who the heck would risk 'winning' the card when they own the card when already sky high over what they would hope to expect.

there are also lots of people on net54 who say they consigned cards and got terrible results...so it cant be both ways...everyone cant be selling their cards way below market and everyone else who is buying cards that are consigned are being shilled way over market..

There is no penalty to a buyer if they win something on ebay and don't pay for it...Thus, a consignor who shills their own auction and wins simply doesn't pay for it ...The item then gets put back up for auction and/or given back to the consignor...

The shiller (now knowing the legit bidder put in a max bid of $100.01) would likely retract his bid and then re-bid to $100, pushing the legit bidder to his max.

That's why when you see accounts with large amounts of bid retractions, suspicions are aroused. I've been on ebay for probably 15 years and don't think I've EVER retracted a bid. But there are accounts with a year or two of service and 50+ bid retractions. Doesn't make sense.

This is exactly how shilling affects you. You don't shill, you often get terrible results when your cards go to auction. Why do you consider these "terrible" results? Because you bought too high, which may have been due to shilling.

If the consignor gets greedy and wins the item, What happens? Nothing....He just doesn't pay; the seller waits for his money back from Ebay for final fees and the card is listed again....Seller can't leave neg feedback and the sellers that take consignments know the consignors themselves might be bidding so wouldn't leave neg even if they could...bad for future business...Ï hate shilling as much as the next collector....but....it's everywhere...

And it's just as stupid illogical each time.

people aren't really talking about ebay ..they are talking about the AH's that charge 20 percent..you cant keep paying 20% when winning your own items..makes no sense ..

as to ebay....yes the bid retraction feature is there up to 24 hours before the item is to sell....you will know which sellers have lots of bid retractions..

plus once you have a 'terrible' result..then why don't bidders price accordingly to the lowest card..why do they value cards with the high bids....we control what we bid....if ebay is terrible in terms of not punishing bidders that win their own items than don't factor in ebay on VCP pricing...lots of ways to deal with shilling...there are so many other things that are wrong that we cant control in life..i don't see shilling as a problem..the major major buys are usually with auctions houses not ebay...if a seller wants 20k on a 1952 mantle..and its at 17k .you really think he will shill it to the next bidding slot lets say 19k....if he 'wins' he will pay 4k with an auction house...no way he bids to that with that risk

Scott, it was deduced several threads ago that he is the long lost relative of Yogi Berra.

This thread is talking mostly about ebay as probstein is one of the largest ebay sellers of sportscards.

You know how many bid retractions that a bidder has on ebay, but not necessarily how many non payment strikes. A shiller can "win" an auction on ebay, and simply not pay, and the card would go to the next highest bidder or be re-listed again where the same process happens.

It's true that you control what you bid, but people usually base their bids upon past auction sales (of the same card or similar cards). However, if the prices of those cards that you are using as your value basis were shilled up, then the entire foundation that you are using to base your bids upon is flawed.

About issues with auction houses, you want to remember what happened to Mastronet...

LOL, thats funny. I thought he was a short fisherman by his posts.

Right we went through this already.....Ebay past sales shouldn't hold as much value as there is no penalty to the shiller versus AHs...and when a card finally gets crushed at an AH because of the past shilling foundation you speak of..now we would have the new real value.....taking ebay out of it..i really don't see how taking a risk to bid on your own card when its at VCP or 10 percent less is worth it when you risk paying a 20% BP...... ..

I value AH past sales higher then ebay..and most people in the hobby that buy expensieve cards have a bunch more knowledge than me so im sure they do the same thing...thus the shilling really isn't the menace people make it out to be

Yes it is.

Leon- If buyers actually had to pay 20% if won their own items, do you agree that its not as big a deal as many think. I understand there may be issues if they acutally have to pay the 20%, but lets assume you lose 20% if you win your own item, don't you think that's enough of a penalty.

thus if I were to bid on an item, I would know that if the bidder under me was prepared to lose 20% if 'won' the item is pretty comforting to me ..

yes I know you will come up with examples if the item is about to sell for 40% lower than perceived market so people bid on their own items..i say go ahead and eat 20% ..you really think they will want to eat another 20% on the same card?

By definition shilling is fraudulent. If you want to protect the price on something do a reserve or higher starting price, neither of which is fraudulent.

I thought he collected Boyntons. I guess only the ones from 1952, which I hear are only theoretical.

better than ANOTHER attorney :D

I agree with you there...but not sure why they wouldn't rather just set a reserve than risk 20% on a 'win' to me that's saying something if they are so sure their bid is so low that they will pay 20% on a win

if card vcp is at 20k and the bidding is at 18k...and they can lose 2k..you really think they bid it to 19k and have the chance to lose 3800? doesn't make sense..i really think though illegal its a non issue for the high priced cards at AH that make you pay 20% on a win.

Let me throw in my two cents (which is worth less than 2 cents).

An item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. When someone bids on their own item, no matter if it is $2 or $20k, it is misleading the market.

The item really isn't worth 19k in your above example...no matter what the outcome is...if the final bidding was meant to have been 18k, that is what it is.

Like stated previously...set a reserve if you are afraid the final price won't be to your liking. It is legal, and does not fraud the market out of valuable data.

The AH hypothetical is not realistic: no consignor who can do math is going to shill an auction already sitting at 90% of past results since it would cost him somewhere on the order of 18% of the value of the lot.

Shilling in an AH would be attractive when the price is way below market and the seller is going to take a giant loss. I'll give you a real world example: Heritage Auctions. HA does two interesting things: it expressly allows consignors to bid into their own lots in return for paying the BP if they win, and it holds unsold lots open for some time as BINs for the minimum bid. I sold a bunch of stuff in November. I did not bid into any of my lots in November. Two of my lots, however, which I was into for ten times the opening bids, were offered as post-auction BINs. I opted to exercise my consignor's rights to BIN them [at the cost of the BP] and avoid taking a 90% loss. The cost to me was effectively 20% of 10% of the cards' value, i.e., 2% of the value of the lots. It was worth 2% to me to take the cards off the market rather than see them sell at throw-away prices and net practically nothing.

This isn't the same as shilling--shilling by definition is illegal and not allowed under the auction rules--so not a perfect analogy, but it is the same financial calculation. To me it was worth 2% to hold my items back. If the cards were at 70% of what I felt was market price I probably would not have gone back into them.

One further note: this whole idea of 'market' is an artifice. We don't have the theoretically perfect flow of information and participation that the model assumes. With all of the auctions around plus eBay the reality is that lots of collectors miss lots of items, which sell for a lot less than they would have otherwise. If information and participation were perfect it would not be possible to flip cards for a profit. I have often had cards go begging on eBay or at auction then suddenly take off and sells in competitive auctions. No rhyme or reason to it, they just got found by the right bidders.

Good to know Heritage Auctions allows you to shill your own items.

What about the auction houses who were in cahoots with the consigners and wouldn't charge the juice if the card didn't hit the hidden "reserve" agreed to beforehand?

Don't underestimate how brazen some of the consigners/fraudsters are/were. One guy on Net 54 even told the various auction houses that he wouldn't consign his large collection to them unless they agreed to let him shill his own lots. Naturally, Mastro agreed to that demand and, naturally, even bid on his lots for him.

To paraphrase the great showtune

But where in the world
is there in the world
a man so corrupt and impure?:D

in your situation you are effectively allowed to do a 'reserve' at a cost....as a bidder im ok with that or even if the shiller has to eat 20% on a 'win'

as to market.....there are certain amounts given a few months we know a 'safe' amount of what we can get for certain cards...a 1952 topps mantle psa 5 any example non qualifier if not fake etc I think anyone would pay 14k for...maybe it can go for more and tons of examples have gone for more, and maybe there was shilling to get to 20k many many times..but cant we agree that shilling wont impact that card being worth 14k? wouldn't everyone on net 54 agree the 'market' would be safe to pay 14k for....the thing with fighting 'schilling' is you cant win.cause the seller can always have a 'friend' that knows the card is worth 14k pay 14k for it..and it magically goes back to the shiller....

I think this shilling is really just a passive aggressive reserve....what a card sells for to me isn't what its worth all the time anyway to the next buyer...if a card sells for 20k then its possible the only buyer wlling to pay that price just bought it,..now that he is selling it..it has a good chance to go for less as he is no longer in the market and he may of been the one bidding it up with potentially just one other bidder to that amount in the first place..

..to me the card is now'worth' something less than 20k...so I don't view past results like everyone else ..I like to see many multiple buyers bidding above a price point etc..