How is your day going otherwise?

I love all the attention signed T206s have gotten!

In all seriousness, I've gotten an outpouring of sympathy from people on Net54, which has actually been quite comforting. And the number of people managing the investigation on here -- and the quality of their efforts -- has been outstanding. The criminal(s) had no idea this was coming. It's an absolute force.

LAW & ORDER: Old Cardboard Squad

It's been impressive for sure, even if the name has not been revealed yet.

The beauty of Cardtarget and Worthpoint, however, is that even if you do that, you never know if that card was sold on eBay or another online source that is tracked there. So you could still be outed. However, there is the making of the new fingerprints so to speak to still worry about...

Yes, more info on these Steiner listings would be great

Has this site matured? The net54baseball site I know would have put the culprits name out there first and then consider guilt vs innocence.

I imagine a lot of folks keep checking back to see if the user ID was posted. I bet this group here could sweep the feedback history and find another couple dozen cards to add to the list. Interesting to watch this develop...

Sorry, edited to say: any chance to put sales prices on the page 1 post? A running rally would be good to see how big this fraud is becoming.

I feel horrible that this is happening and as an advanced autograph collector hope the perpetrator is caught....but-we all know about Coaches Corner and people like Anthony Nurse/Charity Grows. When the person is ousted, what makes you think any real financial harm will come to this guy (or girl I suppose) when the others are still selling forgeries in plain sight?

This is such an unfortunate, terrible turn of events. What a mess.

That said, like a couple earlier posters mentioned, this is one reason of the reasons I have always avoided autographed cards/balls (the other being that autographs simply don't appeal to me). The sheer number of autographed T206s has to be a major concern though.

As for trusting TPGs, I am reminded of a story I read once regarding PSA. There was some card show where PSA was setup for on-site card grading and autograph authentication. Someone at the show got an autograph from a guest at the show, walked over to PSA, and tried to get the autograph authenticated. PSA rejected it as not real.

On a lighter note: Where 3rd Bass Pete from Hauls of Shame when you need him?

On a more serious note: For all his flaws, Pete did a ton of work hammering on fakes and fraudulent autographs over the years.

Man oh man, work kept me from checking the board in a bit, and I come back to find this. Amazing detective work by the Net54 community. This is just a really awful thing for our members with these cards.

Any way to check the three cards in this thread? There's a McGraw (YOD = 1934) and Jennings (YOD = 1928), which would make those fairly tough signatures, let alone on T206 cards.

These are in the BST and I'm pretty sure the guy selling them is not trying to scam anyone. These are indicated to have been purchased in the 1980s.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=261927

in these situations.. who is responsible to refund the buyer? is it the auction house for selling the card advertised as authentic? or the grading company for labeling it authentic? can any of the council board members chime in?

...
 

Has anyone reviewed the two signed cards that just sold with LOTG? A Doyle T206 and Marquard E91.

Here's the deal - you buy a car, after a short period no returns unless a lemon, pair of pants, you wash them no returns, Use half a can of soda - no return. What gives people the right to think that they can have an unlimited return on a baseball card? Dealer or not there are limits...

Did Steve Wynn get to return that $115 million dollar painting after he stuck his finger in it - no...

Buying collectables - caveat emptor - just like this board...

Also just because you are buying a collectable card (slabbed or not) doe s not guarantee you the right to believe you are entitled to a profit... eBay's current buyer friendly policies won't stand the test of time - someone will introduce a better mousetrap, same as those folks with the computer based grading system. (Where are they anyway???)

This is more a less the backstory behind Peter's question - the right to feel you are entitled to a profit even though you may not know what you are buying... Rant over

You must have missed the post where Leon said links to his site were not allowable on Net54.

No link in the post.

John, I'd be willing to guess that Chris didn't see the thread, it's dropped pretty quickly -

Chris, here's a link to the post.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262689

Fake!
 

T206Collector- Just a note to say that I admire your attitude under a very trying situation. You are an outstanding role model for our hobby. Keep your chin up. The Net54 hounds are on his trail! Man, these guys are determined!

On the grade I don't think so.
If it came back as fake, I'd think they could. Sort of like how someone stuck with something stolen has to go back to the person they got it from to get their money back instead of the person who stole it.

(Of course, I could be way off base legally, you'd know better than I would. )

Thanks Jerry. I really appreciate the comments. I hope you’ll remember that you felt this way if I flip out about this down the road!

Sorry but

Sportscard Guarantee

Wtf is the guarantee if they are clearly wrong?

Agreed. Best customer service I've had in a problem situation. I can't wait for the dust to settle.

Different. Stolen goods work the way they do because a seller of stolen goods cannot convey good title and the transaction is a nullity to begin with. If I sell you a card that turns out to be fake, in good faith, that's not a nullity from the outset. Of course we can debate the ethics of what should happen.

No, because once it leaves the slab you lost the TPG guarantee. You can’t just stick it to a prior owner at that point.

Fair enough on both explanations.

I've always taken my attitude from the coin and stamp guy whose shop I hung out at in college. (Probably should have spent a bit less time there... )
He took back an altered coin several years after he'd sold it. It wasn't slabbed.
Basically it went like
"Hi, do you remember this coin? "
"Yeah, you got it from me a few years ago"
"Well I sent it in and it came back as altered"
looks with loupe "How the heck did I miss that? Yeah, it's altered. If I remember right you paid about X for it"
"It was a while ago, but that sounds about right"
"Ok, is a check ok or would you like cash?"


Since seeing that I've always been comfortable buying pretty much anything from him.

Unrelated to this thread, but to this post. I was responsible for the defendant who got 15 months. So I got that going for me, which is nice.

As for this whole mess, seems like Spence has lost most if not all credibility. I get missing one or 2, but this is an avalanche of fraud.
Ive always thought "autograph authenticators" were kind of a scam. No specialized training or schooling. just "looking at alot of autos." its a scam when the FBI does it, and when private companies do as well.

+1 he is handling BEYOND amazing!!! It’s my hope you get your $$$ for all the bad ones and I am sure you will. IMO this will change the hobby of collecting t206 autos... I’d be scared to death to buy one now regardless of who authenticated it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks ...and the E98 you bought from me on eBay last night is in the mail!

No, I don't. Which is what got them into this mess.

That, sir, is a great question.

People have touched on the fact that all of these other signed tobacco issue cards and Goudeys that have hit the market over the past couple of years deserve scrutiny, but has anyone raised an eyebrow over the sudden influx of signed 1952 Topps cards that seemingly are in every auction now, too?

Signed T206 Livingston
 

Here’s another one for the investigation team. Sold on eBay last summer, an American Beauty backed signed Livingston on the reverse. Thoughts on this one?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/T206-Paddy-...-/362320695143

Better res pics available here:

https://imgur.com/2zaWcwy

https://imgur.com/nLJ87Wc

Thoughts on Livingston
 

Thoughts, yes. It’s slabbed with no affirmative evidence of authenticity. It’s thus presumed fraudulent until demonstrated convincingly otherwise. The slab has negative value because it precludes a knowledgeable third party from conducting a proper examination, including testing the ink, which on its face looks awfully suspicious in its boldness. At least the person who signed it or programmed the auto-pen knew that Livingston’s name was misspelled on the front of the card.

T206 scandal
 

Hello everyone....I am very appalled about seeing a guy who bought a card from us in Feb 2015 and now probably used this card to forge Home Run Baker's name. I saw the screenshot that was provided on this topic and spent two hours looking up the feedback left for us in date order over last three years thru e bay and we have his e bay ID..I do not have any paperwork left from 2015 since we moved to a smaller location after the sale of my home but I matched up the e bay item # to the feedback left and it MATCHES EXACTLY....I will not post this name(ID) publicly but I will provide this information to any attorney that is representing these collectors that got burned, I am positive I have his e bay ID and transaction # thru e bay and I want to be careful here. If Adam Warshaw, Jeff Lichtman or another lawyer can tell me how I can provide this info without violating any privacy laws, I want to help the hobby rid someone who forges. I personally was burned by a So. California Rock N Roll album vendor who is now deceased and her operation was a huge scandal, I lost a lot of money so I have NO love for this type of guy.

Ugghhhh
 

Late to the show here, but this really sucks. I've never owned a signed T206, but I've been tempted. My sympathies to the fellows here who have been scammed. Props to Manny for sniffing this out.

Let's all draw blood and poke it with a hot needle.

I am an attorney and there are no privacy laws that would prevent you from disclosing the username. eBay usernames are by their nature public and therefore are not confidential. You would only risk liability if you made false statements in conjunction with releasing the name.

Jason May
Oklahoma Bar No. 22644

T206 Scandal
 

Jason- are you representing any of these clients that are being swindled...? I will provide the e bay ID name and the backup e bay paperwork verification for the hobby's sake, but not on a public forum, if you are actively going to represent one of the buyers, especially the poor guy that bought the Baker signed, plmk.

Also, this guy is still a current vendor on e bay, sold autographs that did look real, none were 3rd party authenticated, none very expensive, also sold 2 old boxed Wilson baseballs unsigned.

I hope the Livingston auto is real. If not, then at least the forger knew better to not add the "e" to the end of the name.

This just really pisses me off. A lot of us have been in this hobby since we were kids. Now I'm really starting to hate something that I grew up loving.

This hobby is turning into a sham (has been for a while):

• PSA8 trimmed Wagner
• PSA graded “Hall” collection T206s
• all the fake cards
• all the fake autographs
• and now this - what some people consider an industry expert in autograph authentication looks like it doesn’t have a clue in what they’re doing (finally proving what a lot of people have been saying for a long time....)

JSA is going to come out stinking on this but somehow I get the feeling they’ll get past this (unfortunately). Personally, I hope this sinks JSA and somehow a hobby evolution starts where things get cleaned up.... you know what they say, "wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which fills up faster"...

I cannot possibly understand how T206Collector and others scammed by this/these assholes must be feeling right now.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1543554404

I think this will help my argument that this is the Cicotte. Someone unfortunately paid $11k for it. And like some of the other cards the forger added a couple new scuffs to the signature version.

And can anyone explain how I can post a bigger image? It keeps getting shrinked. The actual images are much bigger/clearer.

Here's a link to the bigger images:
https://imgur.com/a/ywpBCWl
https://imgur.com/a/oxiuEzF


Attachment 335878

I’m in an interesting position because I am the poor guy who bought the Frank Baker, but I bought it from REA in the Fall of 2015 for $9,000. I then consigned it to REA last month and some other poor guy bought it for $24,000. I don’t expect that I will end up representing anyone in regard to this issue, but if you’d like to email me the information as a way to insulate yourself I don’t mind being the person responsible for releasing it publicly. My email address is: jasonmayesq@yahoo.com. I’ll consider your email to be an attorney-client communication so I will need you to expressly authorize me to disclose the user name since your communication with me would be privileged.

T206 Scandal
 

Dear Jason- I will PM my confidential cell phone and I would like you to call me tomorrow...If you state that you will be responsible to use this verified information to further the investigation, I will give you the info and the backup paperwork that shows the info thru system, but I want to talk to you personally...Thank You

Didn't leave a link, was just bringing a little levity.

That sounds good. I have court at 9 in the morning but I should be back in my office around 10:30. I’ll call you then or you can call my office at (580) 223-9184. Thank you and I look forward to speaking with you.

Jason

I have the fake T206 Flick bought in the Feb 2016 Hunt auction. I probably own close to 20 signed tobacco cards (T206, 205, 202, etc), I posted half a dozen or so. The rest I am very confident in and are mainly Marquards. I only collect HOFers. This forger dealt alot with shakier end of life signatures tho not exclusively
Emotions are mixed. I am glad I have another Flick that is good.
I would like to see the forger in jail and I would like someone to refund the $ I spent. I have always expectedt a small % of my signed cards to be fake (I have about 5000 signed) tho most were bought from very reputable sources, and I expect TPA's a small % of the time to make mistakes. I would love to somehow get the forger to publish a list of all the cards he forged and sold tho that is most likely wishful thinking. For the past few years I have thought about liquidating my collection and just keeping one of each HOFer (mostly in autograph books which are much more likely to be legit).
I was never that comfortable with SGC and recently decided to get some of my valuable cards slabbed with PSA. I spent 2 days with Bill Corcoran who taught me much and he had the highest level of integrity and concern for unearthing fakes. After Bill gave his opinion Kevin Keating and 2 others also looked everything over. I was very impressed tho I fought TPAs for many years. These guys do want to clean up the hobby.
I do think the TPAs should delineate what they do- do they just look at the signature, do they look like Manny did for the card in an unsigned version, can they date the ink? etc. It would be nice to know the whole process. Alot comes down to cost benefit ratio. If I give them 20 Koufax at $20 each including the slabbing process it they can't do exhaustive searches etc. I'd have to be willing to pay more for a more exhaustive examination. It is an opinion of someone who hopefully is learned like Bill and Kevin. I always used to run my possibly purchases by Jim Stinson and Ron Gordon. I have a love hate relationship with autograph collecting and I love the friendships I have made. I may pull the plug like Jason did (great timing Jason). I fell bad for Paul as I only have a bad Flick so far compared to him.
I am trying to not get too freaked out but it is a travesty

Definitely the same card.

https://i.imgur.com/ycWUmbF.gif

Found this.

T206 scandal
 

Dewey- although we rather have had Jason handle this since he is an attorney, and since this public information is now posted on a public forum, I can verify this is the same ID we found through the REPLY TO FEEDBACK RECEIVED pathway.
WE OBVIOUSLY CANNOT CONFIRM that this card was not resold to another person after we sold this to the bidder, possibly at a later date, so you do need other screen shot PROOF(before & after card ID's) that were sold by other e bayers to this bidder to cross verify its the same guy.

Apologies if I jumped the gun. I've edited my post just in case it is the best thing to do. Will be happy to hear from mods or wiser heads via pm if I should restore my post.

Based on the picture of the eBay purchase history with Jap Barbeau, there is also probably a Karger out there that maybe hasn't sold yet.

Whatever you guys think is best is fine. There aren't any rules about volatile situations. I also now have the name of who Scott sold his Flick to but am not divulging it publicly yet. Hopefully the noose gets tighter and tighter for the scammer(s). Even though I am not confident about authoritative help I think we can do a lot like which has been done so far. Maybe if we can really pinpoint it we can find some law enforcement to help. It's an uphill battle from my experiences because after all it's, just baseball cards, not life or death. But it can happen!!

The AH and TPA have huge stakes in this. They have the heft and resources that individual collectors do not have. They have to push this issue with LE. Hopefully, they will not stick their heads in the sand.

I got a call from Steiner this morning. I got a ton of information about the consignor, and am confident they came from an original collection of through-the-mail cards, including mostly index cards, from the 1950s and 1960s. They will be sending me some additional, corroborating provenance and information about the collection, which I will either post here or on my website or both.

So, I do not believe that Manny Anti-Forgers Inc. will be able to find unsigned versions of these four anywhere. They are good.

<img src="https://farm1.staticflickr.com/905/40147543110_879769d5e5_b.jpg" width="1024" height="456" alt="Steiner_Four"></a>

Nap Rucker
 

Another one...

Purchase date: Mar 22, 2015 from joesvintagesportscardsii.

Can't see the back, but I'm sure it's the same card as the one at REA: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...er-nap-rucker/.

The eBay buyer of most of the known fake cards just bought a PSA authenticated Ty Cobb signature. :eek:

It might even be possible that the actual forger is inputting his opinion into these threads.

Really too bad eBay bidder history on Watchcount.com was discontinued.

Are index cards from 2013 Historic Autographs (the slabbed one with the t206 and the auto under them slabbed by PSA/DNA) Safe?

I wouldn't suspect they've been the target of this fraud artist, since those bring a much smaller dollar amount in a sale, than a signed T206. Wouldn't necessarily guarantee its authenticity 100%, but that doesn't seem to be the market for this forger.

Over the past 15 years, I have sold over 5,700 T206's both graded and ungraded.

I have kept a database of every single transaction which includes the date it was sold, ebay item id, and buyer's eMail address, sold amount, etc.

I never sold an autographed one but that does not mean someone did not take one of my cards and forged an autograph.

If any of those cards have a forged autograph and was sold by me when it did not have an autograph, I would be more than happy to give up the buyer's email address and date it was sold. Might help in tracking down a forger or two.

BTW, I kept track of every single transaction, not just T206's.

Dunno...it will be interesting to see as this unravels if this trickles down to chase cards/auto cards in modern era sets distributed by the big guys like topps?

It sure makes tracking more difficult. I miss the days of goofbay too - some of the toolhaus site helps when tracking mutual feedback.

If the buyer/seller/etc did anything with PayPal, the seller can also download any transactions back for 5-6 years via PayPal. I did that recently with all of mine and stuck it in a Microsoft Access Database. It has a SIGNIFICANT amount of info on both sellers and buyers depending on how you select the data. Great functionality.

T206 scandal
 

I will be speaking to Jason this morning after he returns from court...I will authorize Jason as an attorney to release the guys e bay ID(he currently sells on e bay) and I also will provide an original print out on "Feedback forum: Reply to Feedback Received) which also includes the detailed verification of the item # match that now clearly ties the winning bidder with the worchpoint summary page provided by Pat...this shows a clear connection to the "coded" e bay name seen on this post and also the bidder resides, lets guess...in OHIO.

I am wondering if this same person also is responsible for some of the fake PSA slabbed cards that were offered from same state.

Fun fact: Girard, Ohio was the location of one of the Cliff Panezich associates.

Ah, I was wondering what happened to that, thought it was just a glitch last time I tried checking. Guess not.

And here I thought the only things being forged in Youngstown were iron and steel.

Larry -- if it was mentioned earlier forgive me, but what fake PSA slabbed cards out of Ohio?

My first thought is how dumb can a forger be? Why would he/they buy easily trackable cards rather than picking them up at a regional show. Perhaps they have changed their methods?

The rage of it aside, this whole type of thing is fascinating to me. Put it in the back of the book in a chapter after the Mastro Wagner story. What neat little vehicles for fraud these little T-206's have turned out to be a century on...

If the seller is still selling on ebay it would be easy to buy something from him and trace the paypal payment if his name isn't already known

It appears some people know the name. Is it a member of this site?

I had the same thought. The eBay ID that was posted last night did not have any items for sale and in scrolling through feedback I only saw buy side reviews.

Seller
 

what was the ebay id?

I saw that too. Nothing currently for sale .

I purchased a Fred Snodgrass personalized photo, a Chief Meyers note written on an index card, and a Fred Parent cut from the same seller a couple years ago. They looked real from the exemplars I studied, but who knows. If this is the forger, maybe these were real ones that he used to make his fakes? Or maybe they were his practice ones that came out looking good.

I did ask him about the provenance. He told me the AH he won them from in a large lot from an original collection that was collected TTM in the 1960's. I have to dig them out but I believe they are personalized to Mike and Tom (Father and son). I remember he had others for sale as well. A couple were Larry Doyle photos taken in Sarnac Lake, NY when he was recuperating from tuberculosis.

Would one of you grow some balls and post the ID, or PM me and I'll do it.

Yup, but keep in mind it still took 3-4 years for anybody to catch up with them.

I keep on reading these pronouncements about how the TPA's would have been able to catch this if they had just spent 10 minutes more on the autographs.

It actually took the right domino to fall for these to actually get found out. These have been fooling experienced collectors for years it looks like.

This is absurd. It should be posted for all to see.

An eBay ID, potential name, address and current active business is known. I am sure it will be posted soon. It makes total sense now.

(cues Jeopardy music)