I don't know how the average collector is going to determine if a non-serial numbered card he bought from PWCC is bad or not. Most of them are not going to be obvious to the average or even trained eye, without before and after photos. Hell, they got past a TPG, right?

It might be somewhat easier on the numbered ones if you're lucky enough to find its history, but even that that's not easy.

So nobody on 54 could be select or elite? I guess I buy that.:D

I also would be curious about this. I'd guess the majority of cards deserving of stickers were doctored...and following the stickers is a roadmap to many doctored cards.

But according to PWCC's post on Blowout, Brent has no idea whose cards they are when he assigns the stickers. Although someone traced one or more submissions and showed a high percentage of cards from the same submission getting stickered. Who knows.

I really don't believe anything brent could possibly say at this time.

Some of us still do, apparently.

For me it feels like the Aesop's fable.

A blind fold could be employed to assure the randomness of the sticker selection process reminiscent of a game many of us played as kids.

Attachment 353105

Or is the sticker selection process dependent on the name of the "donkey"?

That also need to be taken in context with the pop report numbers. only about 1% of what's been graded are 8s and up. And that's just among the ones that have been graded. If you figure there's still 3x as many ungraded, and that those are even more likely to be in low grade since they aren't really worth grading, (I never understood grading a card that's in bad shape, unless it has some other qualities that make it more valuable) And that the surviving cards are maybe 10% of what was made, the number with high grades just aren't really all that many.

I never asked, but I believe the only thing keeping the 7 I graded from being higher is the centering. I've had a few others done that I had big hopes for, that had small flaws I didn't see. (They still generally di pretty well. )

I don't doubt that some of the cards graded 8 and up are altered, but I do know that there are some cards that come pretty close that certainly aren't. And many of them got no special treatment or handling.

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...pictureid=2594

I think PWCC is the King, The King of submitting doctored cards to PSA and then selling them. I'll bet 50% of everything he has been selling is doctored, IMHO

AND THIS MY FRIENDS is the bottom line. I don't buy it for a minute John. I never really did, but with the shear amount of trimmed cards coming to light, it is a FACT. Anyone that doesn't believe it just needs to put 2 and 2 together. Pretty easy.

I assume that was just a typo but LMAO at the "shear" amount of trimmed cards.

sheerly you jest

I was almost too sheepish to post but figured Chuck would take it the right way. After all it is about the wool being pulled over our eyes.

So why is PSA grading trimmed cards and assigning numerical grades then?

IMO because the card doctors are better at trimming than PSA is at detecting particularly under the constraints PSA likely imposes on its graders in terms of equipment and time.

Somehow I doubt that's the whole answer

The true answer is that a few greedy pigs would ruin the whole hobby for MONEY. You have people who are trimming, doctoring, restoring(joke) and conserving and whatever else that makes the card a FAKE. Then comes the unethical dealers who don't give a shit who they screw because it's all about money anyway. They are a total disgrace to the hobby and should be shunned as such. But worst of all are the so called third party graders who are giving number grades to this crap. When these so called graders started in this hobby it was for the betterment of the hobby, separating good from bad and grading to keep everything equal. HAA! They have failed miserably and really don't care. They blame everyone but themselves. Their story is they can only find so many good graders. BULLSHIT. They don't have any good graders if this CRAP is getting by them. I hope to hell all of the company's involved in this crap go down. They are taking money under false pretenses and need to go away.

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

Post 244 in this thread lists PSA's warranty reserves as of 6/30/18 to be $862K.

Suppose hypothetically there is a cost efficient forensic method available that can CONCLUSIVELY establish that a card has been altered? For example, maybe there is a way to show untrimmed borders exposed to the elements have different physical characteristics than recently trimmed borders. Or that a worked-on corner has a different paper density than an unworked-on corner. Or perhaps the bringing out of a residue crease line from a spooned-out crease. What do you think PSA's potential warranty exposure could be?

I get it that the way the warranty reads PSA must agree with the finding. But it would seem to me that if the finding is based on scientific fact, I don't see how legally PSA could ultimately avoid paying on the warranty. Based on the potentially staggering number of high grade vintage cards that could be required to be materially downgraded, it would seem to me that the warranty reserve is a fraction of what could be needed.

It intrigues me how PSA seems to be merrily going along continuing to give these vintage cards such high grades while, to use Peter's phrase, there appears to be this ticking time bomb. Can they really be so confident that the day will not come when such forensic testing becomes the norm and the bottom falls out? Is it possible they really do believe that all these high grade vintage cards are in fact unaltered? If I was running the company, based on what I believe to be the case of alteration being the rule not the exception for these cards, I would be very worried about the long-term financial implications of their current business model.

Meanwhile, the card at the focus of the restored/conserved/altered discussion, the 52T Mantle from PWCC, apparently has not been paid for.

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

I've never heard any credible evidence for that theory, but I understand why people would believe it in the face of so many mistakes. That said, after two and a half decades, some disgruntled employee surely would have said something if that were the case.

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

But PWCC is clean.

It's not looking good right now but I haven't seen enough to say for certain. If you were defending Brent based on the evidence released to date could you get him off?

I don't think I you can hold an auction house responsible for selling altered cards that were good enough to make it through PSA or SGC. Even if someone did pay off a grade or 2 to get them through.

You clearly know the law very well. On what basis are you even opining about what it is? Seriously?

Just common sense. If they reasonably believed the cards were authentic, and a grading company agreed, how do you hold an auction house accountable. I would hope you know the law better than I do so enlighten me. What crime would have been committed?

Your first if is counterfactual. You're basically saying if they were innocent I don't think they could have committed a crime.

I haven't seen anything yet that would suggest otherwise. If you, Jeff, or anyone else has I'd like to see it.

I have.

Not even Brent has claimed he believed the cards were all legitimate. He knows he would get skewered if he did. No, Brent said, OK from now on we aren't dealing with these people.

But carry on.

It wouldn't convince Jesse. But of course he's willing to convict PSA on the basis that money is involved. Therefore the graders must have taken bribes.

If PSA can't detect ninety-something basketball cards that were trimmed (and those are just the ones that were confirmed), what is the purpose of grading? Oh, yeah, I remember: to add value. They're definitely adding value allright.

Ninety-something cards. SMH. And y'all believe everything is on the up and up at PSA? :rolleyes:

I said I'd be surprised if someone hadn't been paid off. Not that I know anything for certain, or that there's enough evidence to convict. And I'm sure Brent wouldn't claim all of his cards were legitimate. How could he? I can't even claim all of my cards are with certainty. I know I've never altered them.

As I said in another post I haven't seen enough evidence to say what, if anything, pwcc is guilty of. If there is proof they had a card altered, submitted for grading, then sold on their platform that would be different. If they knew certain cards were altered but auctioned them any way that wouldn't be a good look, but I don't know the law well enough to say that's a crime.

Have you been paying attention to this thread on BO? It sure sounds like Brent and PWCC cares about the hobby and will do what it takes to help keep it clean. :rolleyes:

Post#1012, and others. Like the post with proof reads, he had adequate time (8 days) to do something but chose not to. :confused:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=41

Plausible deniability.

Conscious avoidance.

Follow the money.

My preferred explanation is still incompetence plus insufficient time or equipment to detect high quality alteration, particularly with ever-increasing pressure to move more quickly to meet turnaround times.

One thing the grading companies could do to help in terms of the "provenance" argument is to start keeping / making available more detailed notes, at least on cards over a certain value. When was the card graded? Was it a raw submit or a crossover? How many times has it been reholdered? At least for the super high-end pieces, graders notes would be a lot more transparent too. What were the overall impressions of the card? Why were the corners a 5 and not a 6? Why did the card get a .5 bump? What is the graders interpretation of centering in comparison to the standard?

All of this would give tremendous more insight into the process. And the position of the TPG's as long as there have been TPG's (with the noted exception of Beckett doing sub-grades, which they no longer do on vintage) is that well, this is our opinion - but we are only going to give you a number and not tell you why this is our opinion. Which of course leads to frustration and hot heads later when a card that looks like a 5 all day long is a 3, and when a card that looks otherwise like a 7 is a 5, and the other way around when a card that looks like a 4 somehow got a 6. I guess the grading companies think that this would open them up to liability - in the inevitable case that the graders notes for a particular card were then later found not to match the stated standards / description of the grade?

The earlier post about provenance rings true though. For expensive works of art offered for sale, there can be a virtual accompanying book on the provenance of the piece. I agree that it certainly would not hurt to start thinking more in those terms for cards. At least for the iconic pieces of the hobby...I'm not sure I want to see detailed provenance for every '89 UD Griffey graded Mint 9...:eek:

Who's going to pay for the time and resources involved?

Personally...I agree with the idea that there should be a higher standard for assuring a card has been unaltered...similar to what David and Scott did with my no name t206 a few years ago.

-min size requirements
-"quality" of edges/corners/color/sheen of trimmed edge vs untrimmed edge.
-fiber appearance/quality where trim was done
-added corners should be easy to detect
-added color should be easy to detect
-provenance

Obviously PSA is unable to detect most alterations...and just because of this it shouldn't be accepted in the hobby that this is ok!

Whether or not the hobby changes to accept alterations/restorations/"conservations" as ok...THERE NEEDS TO BE DISCLOSURE!!!!!!!

WITH NO DISCLOSURE THIS IS NOT OK!!!!!

Likely nobody, unless there is a market for it. Which just guessing based on roaring vintage card sales and the small number of folks here and I'm assuming over on Blowout that actually care about this type of thing - probably doesn't really exist. In that case it's just an idea that will never happen and it will still be caveat emptor, up to truly discerning collectors - whether or not they are happy with the card they bought or not.

Altered cards are going through PSA at an alarming rate. I think we can both agree on that statement.

There has to be an explanation why and there aren't a lot choices. It's either "dirty" graders or, as you said, incompetence. I can't think of any other explanation, can you?

So if they either have graders that are on the take or are just plain incompetent, why are people still submitting to PSA? I truly don't get it.

Why aren’t these altered cards showing up in SGC or BVG/BGS slabs (not saying that some don’t slip by them too, just saying everything that’s been brought to light recently is in a PSA slab)?

David...you know exactly why people are submitting to PSA. Or were you speaking rhetorically?

Blowout has featured a lot of BGS modern too.

And yes, it's very disconcerting, and it's been happening for a long time.

Man, when you're writing fast and furious, and never proof read dumb sh** is gonna happen. AND I had Shear on my mind as in people are taking a shearing like a lamb or like a card. It's a Complete shearing I tell ya.:D 10 years of "Collage" down the drain with 1 post

once again we agree, and it's not my Kelsey Grammer this time...

If anyone is fully aware of the situation that is going on, and they choose to submit to PSA, that tells me they're submitting inferior cards and hoping for better grades knowing that SGC (or BGS/BVG) would grade them properly.

Look no further than the Anson card. SGC had the first shot at grading that card. They graded it appropriately (1.5). Then PSA had an equal opportunity to grade that card. It gets a 4? How does a card with that much paper loss get a 4? How does SGC see the paper loss, but PSA does not?

Bobby, forget value, turnaround times or any other factor. If nothing else, don't you want your cards graded accurately?

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PSA, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

Yesyesyes

+1

I think there are many parties involved. All it takes is for one to get caught and then that person will start turning on others. I truly believe it will happen soon.

Most people who are selling cards want to maximize their sale price, it's as simple as that, and perfectly understandable. The better question might be why does the market value PSA so much more highly but that's a long complex answer.

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

Just curious as to what some of the speculated difference in the eras was. I was a kid collector back then who would have been totally blindsided by trimming, but I generally couldn't afford vintage with sharp corners anyway - so maybe I lucked out.

Post 1150 onward. (Football player) Betsy was informed of this card currently in their auction but the auction is still up and open.

I guess the old saying talk is cheap is true, or tell the people what they want to hear not what is reality.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=46

As a kid collecting in the early 80s I was duped a few times into buying counterfeit cards...a frojoy ruth sheet...a fake mayo. I bought a 1971 Thurman Munson at a show over 20 years ago and was later shown that the edges were marked in to make it look better.

I think the doctoring has gotten much more advanced over the last 20 years mostly due to third-party grading and the values these cards can bring

That is an interesting take.

So the solution to the rampant trimming and alteration (professional grading) caused so much price inflation and value that it by extension created more fraud and trimming so crooks could take advantage of the increases in price? LOL.

If it's any consolation, the work being done now is much better than the crude slice jobs from the 80s and early 90s.:eek:

How many graders work for PSA or BGS? What are the standards to become a professional grader and is there any certification? How many cards are graders expected to turn around per day?

A few things to ponder
 

I believe the staff at PWCC has increased in recent years, and now there are no doubt openings for 24/7 Vault Wardens.:eek:

With increased fees paid to TPGs for high valued cards, would there not be an incentive to avoid rejecting all or the majority of such cards submitted? If all the altered and conserved cards were not given a numerical grade, it seems to me that the TPG would be shooting themselves in the foot. How many times is one going to donate $500 to an organization for an unslabbed and ungraded card. After all you have to have a slab and a number to qualify for a sticker, at least until PWCC begins offering raw stickers.:eek:

And how will the Vault Wardens be equipped, with billy clubs or tasers?:eek:

An anonymous source has sent me undercover surveillance photos of a PSA grader accepting cash bribes in exchange for better grades...

True. But in an odd irony, I do think it has kind of come full circle.

The best rendition of that song (or any) that I have ever heard...period! His performance on Conan was EPIC!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk7RVw3I8eg

For the first two, the answer is that that technology already exists, and has for a long time.
A 40X magnifier and some knowledge will usually cover them easily. The 40X magnifer is <$10. My first one cost 7 at a antique shop that sells supplies, my next few were about 2 each in a lot on ebay. (5 for 10?) 10 for 20? I don't remember. )
The knowledge is a bit harder to come by, but it's out there.

I'm not sure about a spooned out crease. To my knowledge I don't own any cards with that. It should be detectable.

I believe that in theory it should be possible to trim a card so that almost can't be detected. Almost. It would take some fairly involved equipment, but nothing that isn't readily available.

Some modern cards will be really hard. Some of the Topps Gypsy Queen base cards are a combination of die cut and knife cut. Different edges have different qualities right out of the pack.

I would think, and maybe I'm wrong, that unless you trim all four edges, at some level of magnification the trimmed edges will look different from the others in some way, despite efforts to make them look the same post-trimming.

I've been saying for at least a couple years that grading companies need to abandon the turnaround time aspect of things.

Take the time necessary to get it right.

For modern stuff with serial numbers, and other easily identifiable aspects for each card, build a database of images just like the people on the other forum do. Heck, do that for some older cards as well. (In stamps, it's called a census, and it's pretty cool being able to look at a webpage showing every know copy of a particular item. )

When I've sent cards in, they've been done right around on time, I think 20 days. When I sent in a couple stamps, it was 3 months, and cost more.

Even trimming all four, getting a new edge looking like an old edge is hard. Maybe not impossible, but very hard.

The science used in other areas of collecting and history is so sophisticated that, for example, it can tell you when an artifact was buried in the ground by measuring the atomic energy released since it was hidden from sunlight.

Yes, I think science could be used to conclusively identify all sorts of alterations, including trimming, in trading cards.

Whenever I'm asked to examine an item, I ask "Where'd you get it?" The answer may just be that they picked it up in a garage sale or found it in an attic, but I expect an answer. If it was bought in an auction, I always check out the auction listing.

I'm not challenging the accuracy of what you are saying, but simply expressing my amazement about the implications of what this means. So PSA slabs vintage cards with high grades, knowing that collectors will rely on those grades to justify in some instances spending mega mega bucks to buy the cards at auction. And then should (when?) the day come that it is revealed that these cards are altered and worth a fraction of what they sold for, and PSA receives claims to make good on their warranty, they just fork over the money? As I said before, based on how the warranty currently reads, assuming the scientific finality of such forensic conclusions, that is one interesting business model.

If it becomes too much of a burden I assume PSA will just revoke it. The train is running so fast I'm not sure anything could slow it down at this point. I don't think most people even care. You and I are from an era where the notion of altering a card was anathema. I'm not sure the newer folks spending megabucks these days have the same view. Heck, a guy spent well into 6 figures on a Jordan card that even PSA said was altered.

And how will the Vault Wardens be equipped, with billy clubs or tasers?

No, a ruler, scissors and a razor blade...

Before TPGs, I don’t think there were huge price differentials based on condition. When getting that perfect grade becomes like winning the lottery, its not surprising criminals take notice. What if there had only been 4 grades, say Auth, low, medium, and high. The cards graded "high" wouldn’t be quite so rare (imagine if 7s,8s,9s, and 10s were all in the same bucket today) theoretically reducing upward price pressure. There would still be fraud, but the scale may be less.

Good points and I agree that the low, medium and high grading scale would have less impact on price differentials between grades.

Consider then the opposite and have grading be on a single digit 1-100 scale.

Would the exponential grade differential pricing be even worse? Would an 88 be worth five times the value of an 87? Yikes!!!

Hopefully this will never happen.:D

True, and good reminder. In the 80's, a card whether vintage (the term didn't exist) or modern - it was priced pretty much the same whether today we would call the card a 10 or a 6. A card had to have a noticeable flaw to get a discount from whatever book price or percentage thereof the dealer was using assuming it was EX-ish or better, as I recall. The '87 Fleer Will Clark for example - may have been a $20 card in 1989. A noticeably "EX" card with touches to the corners might have gone fore $15. But an O/C card with decent corners that would have been maybe a 6 today? Still would have asked $20. Dumb example maybe, but that is how I think of it using a card I would have been interested in before TPG's. (Note the '87 Fleer Will Clark is not worth anything near that today in EX condition...oy.)

The sticker companies would be thrilled with this idea.

I'm not saying you are incorrect in this assessment, but wouldn't that be something -- a company revoking a warranty because the product was so defective it became too expensive to keep it. That would make some interesting advertising fodder for competitors.

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

If these are the same card, this is pretty bad.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1188

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

So maybe people are buying the holder and not the card? What then would happen if the TPG's implode based on current events/scandals. How would those folks feel then? What would they do?:confused:

If many of these sophisticated alterations can in fact be detected, if only it was important enough for TPGs to do so, the change I am hoping would come is that they would be forced to do so. If current methods become so untrustworthy, market forces might require that.

This one is horrendous!!!!! You'd think the trimmed edges from the doctor would appear different in color than the natural rough cut that was left alone on the bottom.

If? You can Look 'N See that they're the same card. :D

More proof of money under the table to graders for turning a blind eye. I could understand a micro-trim slipping past every once in a while, but to trim that much and go undetected?

Never get cheated :rolleyes: