Maybe if folks weren't so offensive, such as this post of yours, they would. But I don't blame the original seller whatsoever for not wanting to get into this. And I am not going to be bullied into doing anything before I am ready to. It will all come out. And nice scrambling orf your name. But we got that fixed for ya. Also, i will be going back and putting full names by everyone's ID who wants to spout off. No worries about any one saying anything but if you do your name needs to be by your post, per the rules.
ps...I have made the name known to a few people working on this but just don't want to say publicly quite yet.

The only name I have isn't a member according to records checked. That doesn't mean they aren't here, they can crawl under the fence fairly easily. Caveat Emptor...

I would not be surprised for this forger to go to tough signers from way back when, like what us_caine does. Not necessarily stars, but guys who died young or just disappeared after they stopped playing. He doesn't get anywhere near what an authentic one would bring, but I've still seen him turn a $5 card into a $200+ card. This new guy evidently is a better crook than us_caine, so his payoff would be correspondingly higher.

....
 

I’m guessing it’s Battlefield....

I don't think anything, at this point, unless it has some real good provenance, can be assumed as being real.

This fiasco will set everything on its ear for a long time, especially now that we know tried, true and trusted authenticators/TPA's made some serious errors!

My only signed (non factory) card that I purchased here sometime ago. I was very happy to receive it and I almost jumped in with collecting signed cards when I heard they were getting hot. Glad now I didn't have the funds to support that!

Charles, Charley, and Charlie all on one card, that's pretty good.

Too bad we can't access SGC's old cert lookup tool, because that would help us find other candidates subbed at the same time. Or to look for gaps in how many in the submission failed authentication at the time.

Wouldn't it draw the suspicion of auction houses or TPGs if one person kept making submissions of signed T206s, 1933 Goudeys, 1952T etc? Am I missing something? Was the person selling this stuff ungraded and then the buyers were having the cards authenticated by TPGs?

Wouldn't the TPGs see this huge influx of signed cards as a possible indication that something's wrong?

Somebody else had mentioned about forgers possibly sending in 20 examples and if they got one passed, it made up for the losses and then some. But TPGs have to have a system in place where the failed authentications would raise a red flag, right? None of these TPGs could possibly get 20 submissions (or more) from one submitter (either of the same auto or the same set, etc.), fail 19 and authenticate one without raising submissions, right?!? That seems downright crazy...

Beat me to it! Lol.

From what I hear, they don't even keep scans of the cards they grade. Talk about a lack of transparency. They should be scanning and uploading each autographed card to a searchable online database. That way the hobby can connect the dots if something is wrong.

Some collector I am!

I didn't even notice that, Peter. :o

They wouldn't necessarily send them in themselves. They might send them off to multiple Auction Houses that way it gets spread out.

You would think that the TPA's and AH's would get suspicious.
But money trumps all else,,,,,, stuff, ethics, integrity, etc.

You may have to Chuck the card now.

There's still a few living players from the 1952 Topps set. Not nearly as difficult as pre-war cards.

Soooo, they don't research the cards, they only reference what "known examples" they already have in their data-base, and they don't keep scans of newly submitted autos to grow said database for reference. How can you get better if you don't collect new data points? Oh, wait...you don't.

For all we know, they're comparing newly faked autos with previously faked autos...."yup, that's a match...slab it!"

Good one! :D

My theory is that once 1 fake gets through, it becomes an exemplar. After 2 fakes get through, that's 1 more exemplar, and so on...after a decade or two, the exemplar file will be completely contaminated and no one will know what's real and what's not.

We should start a poll. Closest to guess the time the name is posted without going over wins.

...or after 3-4 years.....starting 3-4 years ago :eek:

The average 1952 Topps is easier than the average pre-war, but there are still plenty of tough signers or players whose demand far outstrips the supply. Fred Hutchinson, Vern Bickford, Vern Stephens and Howie Fox come to mind, as do a lot of the Brooklyn Dodgers.

6 15 pm EST

Peter,
But what if someone knows the name and fixes this poll :) :).

My hope is that justice includes a full accounting of the extent of the fraud. I have a feeling it could be 100's of cards.

It would seem so, but that could happen a few different ways.


Like if someone bought a bunch of autos from some random flea market guy and one was actually real.

Or they inherited a collection and started sending them in a few at a time.


If someone is constantly buying bad stuff and paying me to tell them it's bad I'm not sure I'd want them to stop. I'd probably tell them after a while, but that's in the "I feel bad for them but kinda don't "category.

Totally OT, but I having lunch Saturday with Whiz Kid, Bob Miller-who is featured in the 1952 Topps set. 92 years old and still sharp as a tact :)

Heads up these cards were bought by the same buyer, not sure if there are known signed copy.
March 8, 2015
https://i.imgur.com/G5ajyuo.jpg

August 22, 2015
https://i.imgur.com/WNkw3Bl.jpg

August 21, 2015
https://i.imgur.com/ToUbSqB.jpg

[QUOTE=atx840;1831683]Heads up these cards were bought by the same buyer, not sure if there is a known signed copy.


If there's not, there will be soon!!

I'd rather play guess the ID
 

What if his Ebay ID is:

T206Forger

Wouldn't that be a kick in the ass!

[QUOTE=Promethius88;1831685]https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...162&lot_num=10

What if the villain turns out be be a beloved board member.

This could end like a bad Scooby Doo episode with a rubber mask being ripped off.

:)

Auction houses ask me for opinions and it's always hard stuff where they don't have the answer. I'd like sometimes for them to send me a scan and I get to reply "It says reprint right there at the bottom."

it's happened before!

The biggest mystery since "Who Shot JR?"

G-g-g-g-ghosts?!?

This thread has gotten 40K views already - my over/under on passing 100K views will be 6PM ET Saturday.

I must be in for about 200 of those views myself by now!

That's good. The more exposure this gets the better.

Those meddling Net 54 kids!!!!!

JSA just sent out an email advertisement for an auctionhouse. A little tone deaf, huh? All publicity is good publicity?

This is likely the scary truth for some subjects, although I would guess that any autographs of the most popular athletes (and others), such as Mantle, Williams and the ilk, have many verifiable examples to use as the baseline.

Better take a picture of him signing that card because that is the only proof worthy nowadays.

45 pages of posts already... and on one, somebody mentioned the experience of getting an autograph at a show, taking it to a TPG booth and it not passing.

It hit me - why the heck don't TPGs that have booths at shows offer a service to witness the auto in person and then slab it there, they could even include "WITNESSED" on the flip? I would guess there would be many people willing to shell out extra $$ for this, and it would certainly be a welcome addition for anybody looking to purchase an autograph.

Excellent point. To me there is no greater proof than a physical witness or at the very least a picture of an athlete signing that particular item (although nowadays you can also photoshop that in).

Also, even TTM autos are a gamble. Many of those autographs are not signed by the actual athlete, but by their assistant or spouse. In the 1970s my mom worked with a high profile actress and she signed all of her autographs for her.

Here's the Jesse Tannehill.

Attachment 335937

I'd greatly appreciate any help on the authenticity of the signatures in my signed T 206 collection:

Ahhh, finally! I've been looking for that one.

List updated.

t206 scandal
 

I know there have been posts asking us to post specifics to a very serious criminal activity that does affect the entire industry-FORGED VINTAGE COLLECTIBLES, it sucks and should not be tolerated...I believe e bay has been notified and I believe that certain law enforcement have been notified.....I have spoken to a few people that want to be absolutely sure in collecting facts but I believe the T206's signed are part of a much larger operation.

You kids quiet down in the backseat and let the adults handle this.

Two thoughts:

1) Has anyone contacted law enforcement yet?

2) Does anyone actually think any of these signed T206s are real? Having a personal financial stake in them being real does not make them so.

Time to get a prosecutor involved and put some pressure on the crooks.

SAME, Pat has the eye....must be from scouring the web for all those plate scratches.

GREAT WORK PAT!

Turd Ferguson...

I have given out the info I have to Pat R and other parties to help in this endeavor. I just don't think making the info public at this moment is the right thing to do. But the info is disseminating nicely. I have asked each party to keep it to themselves for now. Thanks to all members who are helping with this.

And to answer Jeff Ls questions, Law enforcement has been notified by myself and at least one major AH.

And on the other question, I think at least a few of the authenticated autos have to be good, right? Y'all know the old blind squirrel anecdote.

Might want to make that video...

I was looking at some of those Marquard's. So happy I got cold feet.

Thanks for this. I was already going to send mine back to REA, but this means whatever lingering doubt I had can be cast aside.

True. Maybe the next wave of TPG autos will have a QR code that leads you to the video proof of the signing, :D

Powell,

As you know, the Speaker was mine. I know it was owned by a collector here in Oklahoma prior to me purchasing it from Goodwin Auctions. I saw a scan of it on sportscollectors.net around 2008, so I know it’s history at least that far. I don’t personally know the prior owner, but Robert Taylor is a fellow collector here in Oklahoma and he knows him. I believe Robert told me that the prior owner has purchased it over 30 years ago. I can’t speak for the others, but the Speaker definitely existed well before this forger or forgery ring went to work.

Also, I think you were the buyer of the Frank Baker that was proven to be fake. I contacted Brian at REA and approved him withholding the purchase price from my consignment check. He’s a stand up guy and he informed me that he had already refunded the buyer. He’s also refunding me what I paid for the card through REA back in 2015. I’m really impressed with how REA has handled the situation.

Jason

I have not heard from hunt auctions, they are aware, and hoping they know the consignor of the group of t206s. It looks like a majority were purchased by f***f and tried to pass jsa and sgc before heading to clean sweep and hunt.

T206
 

Im so glad I don't collect autograph's of any kind !

In addition to Jason's comments on Speaker above, I can tell you that the following 4 cards in your collection originated from the Pittsburgh Find:

Marquard Portrait (one of 2)
Livingston (only 1)
Both of your McBrides (2 of 6)

Hope this helps. Did you acquire any of the others after October 1, 2015?

Doh....

Manny, thanks for the links in page 1. Something that just occurred to me was that most of these have SGC flips. At first I saw a lot of red and assumed PSA but that's not the case. Who certified these for SGC?

How many of these were JSA certified? Hasn't JSA partnered with a lot of the main TPGs (SGC, PSA and Beckett)? Does he still have an affiliation with all of them?

Very valuable thread. I love how the examples have practically irrefutable proof of forgery.

Good work to those involved in sleuthing this out.

Mike

T206 scandal
 

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ograph-scheme/

This article may be related somehow to the same group that was arrested & is possibly producing these fake T206's come from same town...The buyer of our T206 baker(unsigned), later "signed" and authenticated and sold in REA came from a small town of pop 9000 in Ohio. I know the e bay item # seen in worthpoint and posted by Pat exactly matches our reply to feedback research which also contains same e bay id #, and also shows his handle. I dont have his name, nor do I have his original hard copy invoice...but I do know from the research we conducted that his history from his ID(prior to being blocked) referred to location: Girard, Ohio.

The noose is closing.

Is that Marino related to the Marino's from Operation Bullpen infamy?

Once again, great detective work. This is such a sad story but is a great read - I keep checking back and hoping an update on identification of the forger. I took a quick peek at the summary of this thread on page one and noted that the TPAs for the ones identified are mostly SGC and JSA but the highest dollar one is the PSA/DNA Baker.

For my own interest, I made a quick list for TPA tracking...

# Signature Certification
1 Fred Parent SGC Authentic & JSA
2 Billy Sullivan SGC Authentic & JSA
3 Bob Rhoades SGC Authentic
4 Paddy Livingston SGC Authentic
5 Frank Baker PSA/DNA
6 Elmer Flick SGC Authentic
7 Heinie Zimmerman SGC Authentic
8 Wid Conroy SGC Authentic
9 Larry Doyle SGC Authentic
10 Jap Barbeau SGC Authentic
11 Red Murray SGC Authentic
12 Eddie Cicotte SGC Authentic
13 Nap Rucker SGC Authentic & JSA
14 Jesse Tannehill
15 Rube Marquard JSA

The Baker was originally sold with a JSA cert and later got slabbed by PSA. In fact, the vast majority of these cards started with JSA I believe. You've got to look up the auctionhouse listings to find that out.

Well, if this is the same family or group of conspirators, then it might be very easy to get the law enforcement back involved as this may be a parole violation. Therefore the sentences for further offenses would be magnified.

I think the Marinos (Greg et al.) were based in Southern California?

Yes they were.

I will be curious as to when we see the first cards that are not T206 hit the post with confirmed before and after. There is no way the scope of this is as limited as T206’s.

Something tells me this is going to just explode in the next several days.

Not that it hasn’t in the last several!

Thanks to everyone involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

While this goes to show the flaws in their opinion, this is actually a bit comforting (where really no comfort can come from this thread).

I get a few autos every year at the MAB show in Cooperstown. You go through the hotel, come out the back, then go to the front of the building again to get a cert from JSA. They didn’t watch the item get signed, they don’t ask for proof of the signing ticket, and they only look at the item to verify the signer and inscription. This process takes less than a minute to complete and is an excercise in book keeping rather than authentication. Whose to say that a guy signing at that show has a high price (Randy Johnson) and someone walks up with 5 decent fakes. Those are all most likely getting stickers and a cert card.

When I got my Montana Jersey signed at Shriners I brought it to PSA. They did bring the jersey out back for about 5 minutes and then it came out with a cert. I didn’t watch what they did but the process was super quick.

Point being as an autograph collector these types of things are concerning and essentially certs can be handed out on items that don’t even go through a process. Even if these processes are flawed (as we see they are).

Exact same thing
 

[QUOTE=Marchillo;1831942]While this goes to show the flaws in their opinion, this is actually a bit comforting (where really no comfort can come from this thread).

I get a few autos every year at the MAB show in Cooperstown. You go through the hotel, come out the back, then go to the front of the building again to get a cert from JSA. They didn’t watch the item get signed, they don’t ask for proof of the signing ticket, and they only look at the item to verify the signer and inscription. This process takes less than a minute to complete and is an excercise in book keeping rather than authentication. Whose to say that a guy signing at that show has a high price (Randy Johnson) and someone walks up with 5 decent fakes. Those are all most likely getting stickers and a cert card.



I saw this exsct same thing at the exact same show in 2012 (so it’s been the process there for years) and thought the exact same thing. I decided on that day that I would only collect autographs that I received in person. I am not an autograph collector (just get a few players I wanted), so I do not study the autographs enough to provide me with the knowledge to identify fakes versus real. And I’ve

But, at this point, it appears there are a plethora of fakes “authenticated” and, I assume, these fakes are now used as exemplars. I just don’t know how anyone knows what’s real or fake at this point (obviously the “authenticators” don’t) unless you see player sign it with your eyes or have iron clad provenance. I feel like operation bullpen fell on deaf ears and the “romanticism” of owning a signed pre-war card blinded peoples rationale thought!

In reference to a few people’s comments about this not being isolated to T206s, I completely agree; however, I think it will be more difficult to pinpoint the before and after of these other series. When I go to card shows, dealers have binders of low grade common 1933 Goudey cards (perfect for this forgery scam); so I think it is less likely cards from other series will have a fingerprint copy on internet.

Lastly, I feel horrible for everyone that got burned in this scam and hope that they receive retribution (REA response speaks volumes to me on why many consider them an industry leader) and incredible work by Manny in trusting his gut when he smelled a rat!!!

@ndy k3nn3dy

Presumably, hopefully, REA will be made whole by the TPA who mistakenly blessed the cards. I'm a little disappointed but of course not surprised that we've heard nothing from any of the other auction houses who sold the fake cards.

As for autographs, other than on checks or official documents I'd stay away. Problem is that we all tend to lose our heads when confronted with something we really want based on a deep-seated childhood desire. A desire that tends to cause us to ignore simple common sense. Just take a look at the BST with some sellers willing to concoct the most hilarious bullshit stories to defraud board members. If it seems ridiculous it is ridiculous. If someone claims a high graded card in some obscure holder has never been sent into PSA or SGC, he's lying. If someone is selling a seemingly pristine raw card at a high price, presume it's trimmed or altered and been rejected by PSA or SGC. If you presume the worst you'll be right 99% of the time. Sad but true.

This times a million.

Yep. Even otherwise sophisticated, intelligent, successful people seem to check all these qualities at the door when it comes to cards, autographs, memorabilia. It's the perfect recipe for fraud. It's as Paul Simon wrote -- a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

And this phenomenon is exacerbated by TPG because the holder and the LOA just whitewash the problems and give what is -- in many cases -- false reassurance.

Since none of us are going to stop collecting no matter what scandals emerge, the only choice is to be more careful I guess, and use your common sense at all times.

+1

I think the way the hobby has evolved, too much faith has been put on what the label says. A grade, or a blessing of authenticity, is only an opinion. And because TPGs need to process material as quickly as possible to increase profits, many of the opinions are flawed and inaccurate.

But how many collectors actually assess that? If the label says it's a 9, it's taken by most as a guarantee. Look at what 9's and 10's sell for, and you know that buyers have total confidence in that label. Just the idea that all these fake signatures found their way into slabs should be a wake up call that the system is deeply flawed.

Is there no way to tell the difference from ink that's been on a card for 30-50 years, or more, and a card that's been signed in the last 5 or 10?

Yup. The TPG gives the stamp of approval and allows people to exhale. Even when the TPG - like Spence - is shown to be a clown year after year. Collectors are so easily defrauded. As we see on the BST even morons can easily steal.