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When I read it last night, it definitely sounded you were replying to “other notorious card doctors” with a list of auction houses as examples. Peter and Al were very nice to allow you to clarify. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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I thought it should have been obvious when I listed eBay first on my list. Surely, nobody thought that I was accusing eBay employees of doctoring cards. |
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We're just quibbling over our differences of the definition of "altered". I am using the definition that the grading companies use in practice, which is that cleaned cards and soaked cards are acceptable and will receive numeric grades if they are cleaned properly. They all allow cleaned cards. Just look at the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of cards with white borders and beat-to-hell corners and other obvious significant surface wear that are graded as numeric. Those graders aren't stupid. You can't get a beat-up-looking card with white borders without cleaning it. Yet, they allow it. Every time. What they don't allow is a card with some soap scum on it or one that looks like it lost a 12-round title fight with a jug of Clorox. |
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Unless the grading companies are complicit in that they see the work done and look the other way and slap a number on the card, responsibility is with the submitter (assuming he/she did the work) or the person submitting the card for the person who did the work. Not the cops' fault is they do not stop a robbery in progress. |
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So I guess the word “notorious” is ambiguous as well? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
In the near future, a card doctor may simply be someone who heals cards.
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I would love to see the evidence that the following are all "notorious card doctors": eBay, Probstein, Heritage, Goldin, REA, Mile High, LotG.
Of course, this won't be done because while there is some truth to a couple of those, the claim is presumably intentionally outrageous and wrong to obfuscate and switch direction away from PWCC, for which this poster frequently shills when he isn't claiming he can read strangers minds and tell their sins because he is a gambler. Not every claim should be taken seriously. |
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By the way, you never answered me what size shirt I should order for you. |
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:p --. --- / ..-. ..- -.-. -.- / -.-- --- ..- .-. ... . .-.. ..-. |
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Good for you ?
Great food yum ? Giants Flyers Yankees ? Gluten free yogurt |
“Cleaning”
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...2dc504cee7.jpg https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cfd1077e55.jpg Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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Me thinks some of those wrinkles on Mays will come back over time. But I don't have any experience with removing creases like that so maybe I am wrong. . |
I am sure the defenders and contrarians will defend this. To me, it's just wrong unless disclosed.
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In the top photo, the light source is placed parallel to the card surface, which highlights creasing (if you don't do this when self-grading your cards, you should). In the second photo, the light source is above and to the right, which hides the creases. |
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Posted this before and will post it again. I want to see what Kurt is doing to those cards after he stops taking the video...you know...the time while the card is drying. I just cannot believe one gets a 4 grade bump with Kurt's spray. |
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Correct if a crease breaks the paper you can spay, spit, and massage all you want if it broke the paper, which these creases in the 1970 Willie Mays does it isn't coming out.
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You were fine when Jolly soaked his Mays card. With all well-deserved respect, what is the difference here? Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk |
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I am not saying that Kurt is doing more to the cards than what he is showing because I do not know him and have no proof but I am stating I would like to know if he is because 3 to 7 is a big bump and as you allude to, wrinkles do not vanish with spraying and drying. |
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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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Back when Mastro was going full-bore, Doug Allen went very public stating that they would 'repair' any card with wrinkles and creases before submitting for grading. And look what happened to him.
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Didn't Doug get most of his time for being a moron after getting busted and not what he actually done in the card world? |
Peter, absolutely correct. I believe the FBI agent who interviewed him wore a wire and Doug perjured himself. I bring up the wrinkle erasing as an example of where his moral compass stood at the time. But he has served his time, and I hope he is rebuilding his life in a more productive manner.
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https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/...vist-of-fbi-r/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2014/...osecutors-say/ |
I have been against card doctoring in all of its many forms, but this video has completely changed my mind. Peter, I’m leaving the island. Frosty, I’m taking a boat to the mainland!
https://youtu.be/hO5lTeA4iGE?si=rX7V9zYL82KWRWuE |
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Peter made explicit claims about what Kurt did to a card, without evidence, when it wasn't even Kurt's card. I used qualifiers like, "I don't believe ...", "I could be wrong, but I believe ...", "He probably just ..." to make predictions about what I believed most likely occurred. Even my third claim, which I phrased as a certainty, was based on observable evidence (a completely trashed card with nearly as many creases as I have responses in this thread). A claim that no reasonable person could possibly disagree with, as I said, "whoever did soak the card clearly didn't do it in an attempt to "scam" some would-be buyer. This was obviously just a science experiment. Someone was just having fun with the most trashed card they could find and wanted to share the results." If you want to argue that I couldn't possibly know his motives and that it is in fact likely that he was trying to "fix" that Mays in an effort to cash in on a payday, then you're being disingenuous. There's zero chance anyone here actually believes that. |
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"This dude used some top sercret chemical bath on a shitload of major creases, and doubtless without disclosure."
The first cause is a claim to fact - and it appears undebatably true. The dude bathed it in Kurt's Spray, not water, according to the original source. Nobody seems able to deny this or offer any refutation, though one would like to. The second clause is an opinion - the 'doubtless' denoting that it can not be proven but the poster has no doubt what will happen. Debatable, but it's a claim to future probability of what will happen with the card, "making predictions". A prediction is also a future speculation, not oft a claim to the past. There's nothing to play logic with here. The assumption is that "the dude" = Kurt and the resulting false claim that "Peter made explicit claims about what Kurt did to a card, without evidence, when it wasn't even Kurt's card", which does not seem to appear in the actual statement. |
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PSA has clarified their card cleaning stance (see highlighted text below; h/t TiffanyCards):
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...00b9365ef2.jpg https://www.psacard.com/gradingstandards |
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100% handmade with Safe, Natural Ingredients. Cleaning sprays and polishes free of abrasives, artificial colors and scents. |
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Is it pretty well known that Kendrick says David Hall at PSA called him to buy back the Wagner because they knew it was altered?? I've heard the general story and timeline of the PSA 8 Wagner(really who hasn't thats been in this hobby for any amount of time), but definitely don't know it all
From an article 2 days ago..... Kendrick bought the Honus Wagner in 2007. In October 2013, Bill Mastro, one of the early pioneers of the more mature card market, pleaded guilty to mail fraud and, in the process, admitted he had trimmed the Honus Wagner card that got the PSA 8 grade. That put Kendrick's card in the spotlight. All of a sudden, the highest graded Wagner was not what it seemed. Kendrick said he received a call from then-company president David Hall. "He said, 'Look Ken, we graded this card, and we make good on anything we grade if we grade it, and it isn't what we say it is,'" Kendrick recalled. "And at that point he said, 'Listen, if you'd like to sell us back the Wagner for what you paid for it, we'll buy it right now.'" Kendrick didn't even pause. "I laughed and said no thanks." The question is, does PSA, knowing the card was trimmed have a responsibility to move the Wagner from its 8 grade to "altered?" PSA has, in the past, deactivated cards when it is clear those cards achieved a grade through technological means. Kendrick said there have been zero conversation between him and PSA about returning the card and putting it into a more accurate holder. Complicating things is certainly Kendrick's weight in the business and the fact he became an investor in PSA in 2021. For his part, he's not worried. In fact, he thinks the trimming scandal adds to the intrigue of the card. "I think the notoriety adds to the value," Kendrick said. "It's like the John Dillinger gun. It's worth way more because of the story behind it. |
1 Attachment(s)
This SGC "9" is currently listed at Heritage... Scissors not included.
https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...umbnail-071515 ... |
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Brian |
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