Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Greenies weren't taken every day, just when you played a night game and then had an afternoon game. They were also taken, as pointed out, when the drag of the season started slowing you down. They weren't an every day thing, but they give players an advantage that players before them never had.<br /><br />I really doubt you will see any records removed or given astericks. Every era has is it's quirks and phobioles that allow those records to happen. Do we erradicate or the single season win and strikeout records because the conditions that allowed those records no longer exist? There all sorts of examples like this.<br /><br />Anyone that is knowledgable about baseball can figure out why most records came about. Most casual fans look at the true pitching records with a glazed look because of the unreal numbers and think youa re kidding becuase most pitching records that arre quoted are those established after 1900. Most fans can disern the difference betweenn Deadball era, the lively ball era of the 30s, the greenies era of the 50s-70s and todays current steroids era.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>OK, I really didn't want to further this discussion, but now I must.<br />Now they dug up George Mitchell to come and "save the day"....1st of all,<br />he has a serious conflict of interest, being that he has financial inter-<br />rests in the Boston Red Sox....2nd, he did not do much for the state of<br /> Maine when he represented it. My daughter lives up there and I've spent<br />much time up there since 1961. Between, Mitchell and Selig this investi-<br />gation will result in a "feel good - totally ineffective" conclusion.<br /><br />Where is the ghost of Judge "Kennesaw Mountain" Landis......we need you<br />Judge ?<br /><br />I sometimes think the sad, untimely death of Bart Giamatti made more of im-<br />pact on BB than we'll ever know. He would have been a great Commissioner,<br />as he loved and really understood the game. And, I think he would have been<br />independent enough to control this situation......that has gotten so out of<br />control that it will affect BB for sometime.<br /><br />Excuse me for reiterating......Mitchell and Selig will be totally ineffective in<br />this matter.<br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>the percentage of players who took greenies? If, at it seems from what I've heard, everyone took them do you think that negates the advantage that any one player got from them? If so then taking greenies is a far cry from using steroids which I'm sure a large number of players have never used.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Even if 100% of the players took greenies (which I wouldn't doubt), I don't think it negates the advantage. Mostly because I don't think amphetamines give you an advantage over other players - I think they gave players the ability to play hard in games where they otherwise may have dragged through, or not even played.<br /><br />In that respect, I think a great player who used greenies to get through 20 or 30 games during a season would just have had the same stats in those games as normal. However, a guy hitting a home run every 18 at bats who used greenies to get through 30 games would have hit, statistically speaking, about 6.7 home runs in those 30 games. If he played those games when fatigued, or sat the bench, perhaps his stats wouldn't have been as strong. Perhaps they would have. Who knows?<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I wasn't thrilled when they named Mitchell either. Just Selig is far from an impartial commissioner, Mitchell is going to be far from an impartial head of this investigation. Putting someone who has an interest in a team means that most likely there will be little or no investigation as to the culpability of the owners and the commissioner in this whole mess.<br /><br />Judge Judy would have been a better choice than Mitchell.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />It's good to see you had post #300 but... that was cheating... I think I'm going to have to have one of the moderators investigate this... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />It's only fitting that the biggest thread (in terms of responses) is one about steroid and HGH use... ok, maybe not...<br /><br />The debate continues... <br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>We can just think of our blank posts as this threads version of steroids, making it bigger than it really is<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>I do think it makes sense to launch an investigation into all of Jay's posts in this thread, as well as all his previous posts. Not making any accusations or anything, but if it's discovered that he did anything that might be construed as cheating, moderator dude should mark post 300 in this thread with an asterisk, and consider wiping all the rest of his prior posts off the board.<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>We could bring in Kooz to head up the investigation. Even if you delete the bump posts, I would still have post #300 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br /><br />WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>You ponted out that greenies may not have given the player an advantage. Others made this comment too. I am using your post because it is the most recent.<br /><br />Bonds is being singled out because he is considered a cheat. But if a person tries to cheat but it backfires on him or it doesn't work in any shape or form, isn't that player still a cheat because he tried? If a pitcher puts vaseline on the ball but he is not good at throwing the spitter, he still cheated even though he didn't get the results he wanted.<br /><br />Whether a player of the 60's actually received any true assistance from the greenies, he took them because he thought they would give him an enhancement. And that is the same situation that Bonds is in right now. There have not been any studies that truly assert that steroids will make someone a better baseball player. (OK, I do believe they will.) But there is no concrete proof. So for all practical purposes, steroids may have the same (non)affect on baseball players as greenies did. But the main issue is that the players of the 60's took them just as the players of the 90's took steroids, because they thought it would help them. This, to me, makes either both eras cheaters or neither era cheaters.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Cy

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Al Crisafulli</b><p>Cy, I guess I wasn't very clear with my last post. I think Barry Bonds is the greatest player I've ever seen, I think he's a sure-fire first ballot HOFer, and I can't wait for him to break Aaron's record. Simultaneously, I do believe Bonds used steroids, and I support baseball cleaning itself up.<br /><br />My point about greenies was that I don't think the use of greenies gave one player an advantage over another player. I just think they enabled players to beat fatigue and possibly be less lethargic in certain games, or take the field in games they ordinarily would have been rested.<br /><br />Incidentally, I didn't realize that baseball banned amphetamines this year as well until I just read it in SI. It will be interesting to see if there is an across-the-board decline in games played per player this season, as opposed to past seasons.<br /><br />-Al

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Multiple sources told CNN that a federal grand jury has been hearing evidence for more than a month about whether Bonds perjured himself during his Dec. 4, 2003, testimony. CNN reporter Ted Rowlands told ESPN Radio on Thursday night that it took a month for the network to get corroborating sources for the story.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If they go after Bonds for perjury it will be a huge joke. Palmiero perjurs himself in front of congress, on tape, and they claim there isn't enough evidence. <br /><br />Palmiero: lied on tape and tested positive for steroids<br /><br />Bonds: no proof he lied, let alone on tape and has no positive drug tests<br /><br />You lawyers out there tell me who has a better chance of being prosecuted successfully.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Rios</b><p>..figured I waste more time by writing something to extend this worthless thread.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>And where is he today? Barely hanging on to his .300 lifetime BA @ .2997; soon to relinquish his .600+ slugging average in the quest for the holiest of holies. And if he achieves that pinnacle will he be half the man his predessesors were?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>even if he gives all those things up, to him it will all be worth it if he gets the HR record. Besides, most people aren't going to think any less or more of him if he had retired before the season or if stays around and breaks the record. Opinions about him are going to be the same, regardless.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, I think a perjury case against Bonds is much easier to prove than one against Palmiero. While Raffy claimed under oath that he had never done 'roids, his positive test occurred after his testimony just leaving circumstantial proof that he had actually lied before Congress. I'm also unsure how many independent witnesses exist against Raffy who could testify that at the time he testified before Congress he was doing steroids. Bonds, on the other hand, while not having a positive test has a plethora of witnesses and documentary proof that suggest that he was doing steroids at the time and before he testified before the Grand Jury that he had never knowingly taken 'roids. Also, for what it's worth, the baseball hearings before Congress - while causing all that testified to take an oath - were not nearly as serious as the Balco/Conte Grand Jury. In addition, Bonds has the tax/money laundering criminal issues that may also be part of the same indictment should charges ever be brought. My general feeling is, as a defense attorney, that lying under oath during a Congressional hearing on steroids in baseball hardly shakes the foundation of our society; but evading taxes, laundering money and lying before a Grand Jury does have a grave impact on society. That being said, in my opinion, unless the Feds have the goods on Bonds with the tax and money laundering issues, no indictment will result against Bonds because I think the Feds were ultimately not stymied by his purported perjury in the Grand Jury (everyone they wanted to indict was indicted it would seem) and Bonds surely is being punished in ways that no ordinary perjurer would be, i.e., his treatment by fans, press, etc.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Gilbert, I'm sure Bonds appreciates your worrying about his lifetime stats. Are you worried about Mike Piazza as well who is batting just .214 with one home run?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I found Piazza interesting until he played against the United States.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Some interesting tidbits from a SABR-l post:<br /><br />I know it's early in the season and things may settle down, but there are more<br /><br />(1) Runs/Game this year than last: 10.32 vs. 9.18 (increase of 12%)<br />(2) HRs/G: 2.45 vs. 2.06 (+19%)<br />(3) HRs/ABs: 0.036 vs. 0.030 (+20%)<br /><br />And although there're also small increases in<br />(4) BA: .2694 vs. .2645 (+2%)<br />(5) OBP: .338 vs. .330 (+2%)<br />(6) SLG: .4442 vs. .4189 (+6%)<br /><br />there's a big increase in<br />(7) ISP: .175 vs. .154 (14%)<br /><br />And there's a decrease in<br />(8) Runs/HR: 4.213 vs. 4.450 (-5%)<br />(9) Hits/HR: 8.768 vs. 7.522 (-14%)<br /><br />All of these data point to a greater number and greater influence of HRs this year than last year (and most previous years, too).<br /><br />So if MLB's new policy on steroids testing has truly eradicated steroids from the game, then these data seem like an indictment of pitchers having used them more than hitters (assuming, of course, that steroids affect performance).<br /><br />Does this mean that asterisks should accompany HR records set by hitters during the steroids era indicating that the hitters had their totals artificially suppressed by the use of steroids by pitchers?<br /><br />JP Caillault<br /><br><br>I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I just had to resurect the longest thread ever <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I had to pass along this post from the SABR-l list about Bonds v Clemens:<br /><br /><I>Can you imagine the furore that would ensue if Barry Bonds announced he was taking half of a season off before returning to join his team? He would be accused of selfishness and thinking only of himself at the expense of the team, but Clemens who did just that gets a free pass. A similar season arose last year when Bonds was criticized as selfish for returning for the last month of the season, while Jeff Bagwell was praised for his heroic efforts to return to help his team make the playoffs. Bonds, of course, was still despite his injuries a productive player, while Bagwell, once a great player, was a cypher</I><br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />When I saw this thread ressurected I started to laugh to myself. Then I thought "who would have brought it back to the top again?". I was just a bit surprised when I saw the poster...<br /><br />Round 4 - Can it get to 400 posts? Lets hope not.<br /><br />Interesting post by the SABR member. A quick rebuttal (devils advocate so to speak) to that post. I'm not a SABR member so I can't (don't know how) to post it on the SABR board. <br /><br />Clemens is a pitcher, every 5 days he goes out and does his thing. Bonds is an everyday player and his value is in everyday play (in Bonds case, getting his at bats). I suppose you could make the arguement that being around the team brings up commradarie but that's a part of team chemistry and every team is different.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Back up there a ways, Judge Dredd talks about MLB and their anatomy. He had the thumb correctly located. He omitted mentioning that they were sucking their thumbs at the time.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Frank.<br /><br />McGuire was evidently doing stuff that was "legal", but contrary to the public's sense of justice. He retired a bit early, and I think that is why. Barry has evidently continued his use. The ineligible list would be a just place for Barry. And I imagine that sportswriters will make McGuire wait a few years. I figure Barry was good for about 400 of his home runs, and the rest should be credited to Merck, Abbott Labs, Bristol Myers, and folks like that.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>In Jay's defense, I think we can all agree that Clemens is as selfish and greedy as Bonds and probably at least as much of a liar. That being said, though Clemens' head seems to have grown 4 sizes during his career there is no real evidence that he cheats, unlike Bonds. I really don't want to bring this thread back to life...but living in NYC and watching Bonds play here the past two days has made my stomach turn. And Clemens' recent desire to come back as a 'Stro simply because he wants to "win" when his other suitors were all teams in first or second place, ahead of the 'Stros, is equally nauseating.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Spencer</b><p>Someday soon, Bonds will break apart, and melt into the field. AAAHHHHHhhhhhh

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>And when he melts down out there, the Superfund and EPA folks will have to come in and clean up the hazardous chemicals...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Dustan Hedlin</b><p>Oh man. I don't think I can read through 326 posts, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned. Will baseball actually be able to put an asterisk next to Bonds' HR total unless he was found to be using steroids after 2003? Since they weren't officially banned until 2003, couldn't he have shot up in the dugout in between innings without being punished by baseball?<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Judge, youa re thinking too small. I'm gunning for 500 posts for this thread <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned but the most interesting piece I have ever read on this is by Asher Chancey on Baseballevolution.com entitled The Bagwell Conspiracy where he traces steroid use in baseball to Jeff Bagwell. His subsequent writing is also interesting.<br /><br />Just go to that website and punch in bonds and chancey as key words.<br /><br />Jim

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>Here's a direct link. <br /> <br /><a href="http://www.baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracyold.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballevolution.com/asher/bagwellconspiracyold.html</a><br /><br />Egads. If this article is true, a certain Houston Astro should be arrested and charged with drug trafficing. This should not go unpunished.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>If you actually believe that article, Ive got some swamp land in Florida you might be interested in purchasing.<br /><br />Im not saying that Bagwell never juiced but, first and foremost, that article cites to no sources. Its simply nothing more than a made up story that ties players back to bagwell - sort of like a seven degrees of Jeff Bagwell game.<br /><br />Second, if you believe the story, you would have to believe that even though bagwell began juicing in 1992, by 1999 (seven years later) he was still the ONLY source of steriods in the major leagues - "In 1999 . . . Barry Bonds . . . asked Servais if he knew any secrets which had been helping Sammy . . . Servais offered to give Bagwell a call, which Bonds quickly took him up on." I mean come on, use your brain here - we should believe that seven years after Bagwell "introduced steriods to baseball," that he was the only person who had access to them? This is nonsensical particularly since steriod use had been a problem in the NFL many years prior. Steriods were not new to the world and were readily available - moreover, I am fairly certain that back in 1992 there was no drug testing in MLB and no need for any special designer steriods.<br /><br />Finally, I bet if you check the facts, many of the players never played with other players that they are linked to in the story.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I don't know if its true or not but don't you think he opens himself up for a lawsuit by his specific allegations?<br /><br />Jim

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Hey Jim,<br /><br />In case there was any confusion, I didnt mean for my post to imply that I was referring to you when I commented on the believability of the story - just making a general comment. As for the article itself, I do think the author has opened himself up to a defamation lawsuit unless he can prove that its truthful (which, as mentioned, I doubt he can).

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I think you are right on both scores but the specificity of his information and his naming names all the way through is astonishing.<br /><br />Jim

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Right now, Clemens is #2 in lifetime Ks, But he is being continually pressured by the Big Unit - who will pass him this year unless Clemens returns.<br /><br />Plus with 9 more wins, Clemens would join Spahn as the only pitchers to achieve the 350 wins level since Pete Alexander.<br /><br />Some people don't care about numbers, tho.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The whole Jason Grimsley situation should prove very interesting. As Jason Stark's article pointed out, he is baseball's worst nightmare as far someone coming forward about this because he has literally been just about everyone's teammate.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This is way too funny. Very Onionesque<br /><br /><a href="http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Barry_Bonds</a><br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>T Engle</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />That was some good stuff.<br /><br />It had me laughing the whole time!<br /><br />T

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>There sure doesn't seem to be a lot of information about the Grimsley investigation coming out.<br /><br />When is George Mitchell going to investigate the owners? Don't tell me they didn't know about the steroid use. They were the big winners. The attendance and popularity of the game were still down from the 1994 strike and then McGwire and Sosa start hitting homers at a record pace... the fans, TV revenues, and associated sales come back. I saw an estimate where the collective revenues of all MLB teams increased by over $1,000,0000,000 from 1997 to 1999.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I really think that it was more the juice in the ball than the juice in the players which caused the HR barrage. Afterall, owners have been adjusting the game to maximize attendence since they decided that the pitcher's "mound" should be moved all the way back to 50'.<br /><br />Edited to add: Of course, attendence is no longer the issue; ratings is.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I can't believe that people are whining about the journalists that exposed this whole thing are going to to jail for shielding someone that broke the law. I am all for exposing corruption ect. but if the reporters are breaking the law to do so, then they are no better than the law breakers that they are trying to expose. If the laws get change to allow jouranlists to do something like this, then great, but under current laws, what they did was against the law and they should be doing jail time for it.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Rich Mueller</b><p>Jay..<br /><br />And that's the problem. The law needs to be changed. You can't be "in favor of exposing corruption" and still support tossing these guys in jail for doing their job. <br /><br />If you're OK with that, then you really are OK with corruption at all levels of government. Because if whistleblowers can't speak to reporters without fear of being exposed, no one will talk. And when that happens, crooks thrive. <br /><br />The government says it's trying to rid baseball of steroids but it's willing to lock up the 2 guys who've done the most to help expose it.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Rich- This isn't a whistleblower scenario. These guys knowingly broke the law by accepting secret grand jury testimony and using it. The fact they profited by selling a book laced with that information only makes me feel more strongly that they deserve to be punished by a civil contempt for refusing to reveal their sources.<br />Look, here's the bottom line, they knew exactly what they were doing and went ahead and did it any way. Even if what they did was noble and exposed a situation which needed exposing, they are not above the law. President Bush applauding them is so hypocritical it makes me want to puke. The skeletons in his closet must be thumping around and spinning. You can tell its election time. It's fine for your henchmen in Washington to throw a federal agent under the bus and blow her cover and subject her to being killed but its not ok to put someone in jail for this. Unfriggingbelievable...<br />You simply can not pick and choose if someone can violate the law or not, just as you can't pick and choose whether some grand jury testimony can be leaked because it is in the public good and some can't be because it is not. How would you like to give secret grand jury testimony involving the mob and have it leaked and be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life? Barry Bonds is not John Gotti but the principal is the same. If you want to be noble and expose something you feel needs exposing, great, I commend you, but be ready to pay the price. Besides you'll have a nice financial nest egg from the sale of the book (and probably another book in the future to boot) when you get out. These guys did this going in with their eyes wide open. If you want to blame someone for this sorry mess, blame Bud Selig, the impotent and incompetent, blame the player's union, but don't blame the judicial system here. They are lucky they are looking at civil contempt only and not being charged criminally as co-conspirators.<br />My 2 cents.<br />tbob