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Hi Ted,
Allow me to offer a more detailed explanation for my position: The years 1909-11 were fiercely competitive for the various American tobacco brands, and they went to great lengths to sign up baseball players and to issue literally millions of cards each to include in their cigarette packs. This was a major marketing endeavor that turned out to be wildly successful. Ty Cobb tobacco, on the other hand, had no part in this at all. If they printed only a single sheet of 100 cards, as you suggest, that sounds to me like no more than a one-day marketing campaign, limited to a very small geographic area. Yes, they "borrowed" the red image of Cobb, and designed the back to conform with what was circulating in America, but they were not at all competing with the other brands. How could they? How could a hundred cards compete with the millions being produced elsewhere? And even if the American Lithograph Company printed them, that in itself doesn't make them part of the national promotion. So I will go so far as to say they have nothing at all to do with T206's, other than they have a similar appearance, something not uncommon in the 1910-era. That said, if we took a survey, I'm guessing the majority would say they are T-206's. And that's okay, I don't mind taking a minority position. And why are you and I the only ones discussing this? Don't others want to take a break from the PSA/PWCC debacle and talk real baseball cards?:) |
INDEX (upgraded)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg .... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)]. Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series. One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363 meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, it was "the start of of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Claude Raines to Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca). In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle "error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints. So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here. And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________ INDEX Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters. Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted. Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards) Post #5......350/460 series backs identified Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" Post #96.....UZIT checklist Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ? Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one ! Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back Posts #701 >> 713.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist.....where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ? Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors. However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s). TED Z . |
Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
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1st, I will answer your last comment regarding "the PSA/PWCC debacle". It has been "sucking" most of the oxygen out of this forum for weeks. It's not surprising that you and I are the only guys here talking about this Ty Cobb subject. My guess that approx. 100 cards were printed by American Litho (and then shipped to the Reidsville Plant in N.C.) may be an underestimation However, with only 22 of these cards have been discovered to date, I may not be too far off on this number. Perhaps, some more guys will chime in here with some interesting opinions. TED Z . |
I'll be the third wheel here for a second. If we think of T206 as the sum of a math (or maths, if you're an Anglophile) equation, it would look like this:
ALC + ATC + (national or regional retail distribution) + (1909-11) + "white border" format = T206 If one of those is absent, then the answer can't be T206. Leaving aside that T213-1 might be the same sum, the Ty Cobb most likely fails on the distribution and maybe date of issue. While Ty Cobb tins exist, linking them to an inserted card is problematic at best. Given the sheer volume of tobacco and other tins people saved - go to any antique mall if you have any doubt - tins of the most popular player of his day would've been saved as much as Prince Albert or whatever. Yet there are very few known, suggesting a limited retail presence. And, if the date is also ambiguous, that's another strike against Ty. |
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Yes it is. If we start now, we should get it all together by October or so
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Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
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Hi Judson There is no ambiguity regarding the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin...… Newspaper excerpt....The Reidsville Review....Nov 16 1909 "The Penn Tobacco Co. began this week placing on the market a new brand of plug cut granulated smoking tobacco which will be encased in tin boxes. The name of the brand is "Ty Cobb". It should be a fine seller, for there is plenty of quality." Furthermore, my research indicates that the date of the Ty Cobb card is definitely Circa..early 1910 for several reasons, two of which are: 1.....the red portrait Cobb was printed when American Lithographic started printing their 350 Series cards (Circa..late 1909 - early 1910). 2....Senator Richard Russell, whose tobacco card collection includes the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card, acquired his collection during 1909-1910. * * He stopped smoking and collecting tobacco cards at age 14 when his parents enrolled him in the Gordon Military Institute in 1911. The make up of Russell's 507-card T206 set indicates to us that the majority of his collecting days were in 1910. * * note Biography of Richard B. Russell, Jr. TED Z . |
I agree that the article is consistent with the planned marketing of Ty Cobb tobacco, but I am still dubious about the actual marketing. The sheer absence of more surviving tins in the collecting community makes me think that the plans of Penn Tobacco went nowhere.
And while the Russell collection is some proof of the date of the card (as opposed to the date of the tin), I'd be hard pressed to say that is dispositive. It could conceivably have been a later gift to him as a State Representative or Governor by someone who knew of his love of the game. As to the image, that was used throughout the decade, which doesn't preclude a later date of issue. All in all, and not (necessarily) to stir the pot, I think T213-1 has a better claim to be included in the T206 but.. |
Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back
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First, regarding your last statement, I absolutely agree that the 1910 COUPON set of 68 cards should be considered as an integral part of the T206 set. As a youngster, Russel traveled with his Dad (a Judge who often traveled 50 miles to Atlanta) which could be how he acquired his Ty Cobb card. However, how do you account for the tobacco stains on some of these Ty Cobb cards which had to be because some were inserted in the Tobacco Tins. Which proves that these cards were issued during the 1910 timeframe. TED Z . |
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