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INDEX...T206 REFERENCE/Reflections...the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
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http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...C150x30xxz.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ohnson208x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...t150x12xxx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...yab350x19x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg .... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign .......... Piedmont____The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__American Beauty ... Sovereign .......... UZIT This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)]. Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206 An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series. One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363 meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca). In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle "error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11 Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints. So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here. And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________ INDEX Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters. Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted. Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints" Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards) Post #5......350/460 series backs identified Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series) Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's ! Post #93.....T206 "Proofs" Post #96.....UZIT checklist Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911) Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ? Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued) Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint) Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s) Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects...... Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005 Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206 Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns in T205's Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds" Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ? Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one ! Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ? Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ? Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ? Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards Posts #801 >> 805.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors. However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s). TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg ……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………... The Elite 11 with EPDG backs are not quite as rare as with the PIEDMONT 350. Nevertheless, the EPDG's are tough. I acquired 8 of the Elite 11 with the EPDG back. Subsequently, I traded 4 of them. These 4 remain in my collection. http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sEPDGx25_1.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...anShawEPDG.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...rEPDGx50_1.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...EPDGx25b_1.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nShawEPDGb.jpg TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg ……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………... Gee guys, I expected to see some more Elite 11 cards. And especially nicer looking ones than mine. Usually, most of these Elite 11 cards (when found) appear to be Vg (or worse). Probably, the nicest looking one I've had was this Lindaman, which I acquired at the National in 2008…… http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350sgc50_1.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...50sgc50b_1.jpg Since I had two Lindaman's, I sold this nicer one because I was offered a price for it that I could not refuse. There appears to be a certain fascination with these Elite 11 T206's....so, why not Show-n-Tell us of your Elite 11 cards ? TED Z . |
Here is my group of Elite 11 cards. I didn't realize how many I had graded until I managed to get them all together. Looks like I have a few to upgrade at some point also.
http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/1b.jpg http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/2b.jpg http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/3b.jpg http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/4b.jpg |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg ……………. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects ……………... Hi Ron Now that's a really nice display of your Elite 11 cards. Thanks for posting them. It is interesting that you are missing Tom Jones and Lundgren with PIEDMONT 350 backs. But, you do have Spencer with the PIEDMONT 350 back. Experience has shown that these three Elite 11 subjects are considerably tougher to find than the rest of the Eleven with the PIEDMONT 350 back. Good luck in finding Jones and Lundgren. TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg …………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects …………….. Hey Ron In your scans on Post #754 you included the SOVEREIGN 150 cards, which reminded me that the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 appear to be much more difficult to find than their PIEDMONT or SWEET CAPORAL counterparts. I'm curious if your experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards of the Elite 11 subjects was similar to mine ? .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nJonKarSOV.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...onKarSOVbk.jpg .http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...hShaSpeSOV.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...haSpeSOVbk.jpg TED Z . |
Quote:
Since we are talking about Sovereign’s and there’s another post about Sovereign’s and the original 150, which I don’t believe there to be any exact numbers, I figured I’d share my Sovereign 150 difficulty breakdown list. It’s in 4 sections from most difficult to easiest. Obviously, this is only my opinion. These cards are from a group of 150 only cards. No 350 backs were made with any back. These are the most difficult Sovereign 150’s. (11/150) Ames, Red (Hands At Chest) Brown, George (Chicago) Brown, Mordecai (Cubs On Shirt) Burch, AL (Batting) Donlin, Mike (Fielding) Doyle, Larry (Throwing) Evers, Johnny (Cubs On Shirt - Blue Sky) Pattee, Harry Pelty, Barney (Horizontal) Powers, Mike Reulbach, Ed (Glove Showing) These cards are from the Elite 11 card group. These are cards that can only be found with a Sovereign 150 and not Sovereign 350 back. These are the second most difficult Sovereign 150’s.(10/150) Dahlen, Bill (Boston) Ewing, Bob Ganley, Bob Jones, Tom Karger, Ed Lindaman, Vive Mullin, George (Throwing) Schaefer, Germany (Detroit) Shaw, Al Spencer, Tubby These are cards that can only be found with a Sovereign 150 and not Sovereign 350 back. These are the third most difficult Sovereign 150’s. (60/150) Alperman, Whitey Ball, Neal (New York) Bates, Johnny Beaumont, Ginger Bergen, Bill (Batting) Bowerman, Frank Bradley, Bill (Portrait) Bransfield, Kitty Chance, Frank (Portrait - Red) Chase, Hal (Portrait - Pink) Chase, Hal (White Cap) Chesbro, Jack Clarke, Fred (Portrait) Clarke, J.J. Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Green) Conroy, Wid (Fielding) Covaleski, Harry Crandall, Doc (Portrait No Cap) Davis, George Davis, Harry (H. Davis On Front) Delehanty, Jim Doolin, Mickey Durham, Bull Evers, Johnny (Portrait) Gibson, George Gilbert, Billy Hahn, Ed Hemphill, Charlie Herzog, Buck (New York) Hinchman, Bill Jordan, Tim (Portrait) Keeler, Willie (Portrait) Killian, Ed (Hands At Chest) Konetchy, Ed (Glove Above Head) Lajoie, Nap (Throwing) Lake, Joe (New York) Leach, Tommy (Portrait) Lobert, Hans Lumley, Harry Magee, Sherry (Portrait) Marquard, Rube (Hands At Side) Mathewson, Christy (White Cap) McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn) McQuillan, George (Ball In Hand) Overall, Orval (Portrait) Owen, Frank Pastorius, Jim Powell, Jack Ritchey, Claude Rucker, Nap (Portrait) Schlei, Admiral (Catching) Schmidt, Boss (Throwing) Schulte, Wildfire (Front View) Spade, Bob Steinfeldt, Harry (Portrait) Tannehill, Lee (L. Tannehill On Front) Tinker, Joe (Portrait) Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Left Shoulder) Wilhelm, Kaiser (Hands At Chest) Williams, Jimmy These are cards that can be found with a Sovereign 150 and Sovereign 350 back. These are the least difficult Sovereign 150’s. (69/150) Abbaticchio, Ed (Brown Sleeves) Ames, Red (Portrait) Bell, George (Hands Above Head) Bender, Chief (Portrait) Birmingham, Joe Bresnahan, Roger (Portrait) Bridwell, Al (Portrait - No Cap) Brown, Mordecai (Portrait) Camnitz, Howie (Arms Folded) Cicotte, Ed Clarke, Fred (Batting) Cobb, Ty (Bat On Shoulder) Criger, Lou Criss, Dode Devlin, Art Donlin, Mike (Seated) Donohue, Jiggs Donovan, Wild Bill (Portrait) Dooin, Red Dougherty, Patsy (Portrait) Elberfeld, Kid (Portrait - New York) Ferris, Hobe Flick, Elmer Goode, Wilbur Griffith, Clark (Portrait) Isbell, Frank Jacklitsch, Fred Johnson, Walter (Portrait) Jones, Fielder (Hands At Hips) Jones, Fielder (Portrait) Joss, Addie (Portrait) Keeler, Willie (With Bat) Kleinow, Red (New York - With Bat) Kling, Johnny Lajoie, Nap (Portrait) Leifield, Lefty (Pitching) Liebhardt, Glenn Manning, Rube (Batting) Mathewson, Christy (Portrait) McGraw, John (Finger In Air) McGraw, John (Portrait - No Cap) Merkle, Fred (Portrait) Murphy, Danny (Throwing) Nicholls, Simon (Hands On Knees) Niles, Harry Oldring, Rube (Fielding) O'Leary, Charley (Portrait) Parent, Fred Seymour, Cy (Batting) Sheckard, Jimmy (No Glove Showing) Shipke, Bill Smith, Frank (F. Smith) Stahl, Jake (No Glove Shows) Stone, George Stovall, George (Portrait) Sullivan, Billy Tenney, Fred Tinker, Joe (Hands On Knees) Turner, Terry Waddell, Rube (Portrait) Waddell, Rube (Throwing) Wallace, Bobby Walsh, Ed Weimer, Jake White, Doc (Portrait) Willis, Vic (Portrait) Wiltse, Hooks (Portrait - No Cap) Young, Cy (Bare Hand) Young, Cy (Portrait) |
Ron, this is really great work. I strongly agree with the categories, although I think the top group is far more difficult than the Elite 11 group.
While there are a couple outliers from the Sovereign 150 and 350 list (Cobb bat on, Lajoie, Jones standing, Tenney, Criger, Clarke batting to name a few)...this is the best way to break things down imo. |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg Only these five T-brands were printed on the backs of the 150-only T206's Ron Thanks for sharing your Sovereign 150 difficulty breakdown information. When I put together my all - SOVEREIGN set (circa 2007), most of my experience finding the SOVEREIGN 150 cards mirrors your list. The 150-only subjects were somewhat tougher than the Elite 11 (with SOVEREIGN 150 backs). Especially the Schulte (front view) card. I think he was the last card which completed my set. As you probably know, I consider this Schulte card residing in the 150-only group. My theory is.....American Litho replaced Wagner with Schulte to fill out the vacant slot on the printing plates. Schulte is definitely a short-print with respect to SOVEREIGN 150 cards. 150-only Series subjects http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...urchDonlin.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tPeltyReul.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nkSC150x30.jpg . . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gnerRpt15x.jpg > > > > http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...150Schulte.jpg TED Z . |
T206 REFERENCE / Reflections....the elusive ELITE 11, show them if you have them
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...DMONT350bx.jpg …………….. The 150 Series backs associated with the Elite 11 subjects …………….. Quote:
As you well know, Dahlen (Boston) and Spencer are without a doubt the most difficult to find of the Elite 11 group. I post this following timeline of the transitional status of these 10 players, which was approximately concurrent with American Lithographic's 350 Series start-up. Of which the PIEDMONT 350 backs were printed first. And, it is my understanding that the EPDG print runs instantly followed. Bill Dahlen................ Oct 27, 1909....signed by Brooklyn [this may explain why Dahlen (Boston) was short-printed]. Bob Ewing................ Jan 10, 1910....traded tp the Phillies Bob Ganley............... May 18, 1909....traded to Philadelphia A's Tom Jones................ Aug 20, 1909....traded to Detroit Ed Karger................. June 9, 1909.....sold to St. Paul Saints (American Association) .............................. July 26, 1909....traded to Boston (AL) Vive Lindaman.......... July 7, 1909....Major League career ends Carl Lundgren........... Apr 23, 1909....Major League career ends Germany Schaefer..... Aug 13, 1909....traded to Washington Al Shaw................... 1910....played with Wichita Jobbers (Western League) Tubby Spencer.......... Circa July 1909....after catching 28 games with Boston, he quit them for the season [this may explain why Spencer was short-printed]. .............................. In 1910 he played for the St. Paul Saints (American Association). TED Z . |
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