hah!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2422


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2421

Those are T206 Green Ty Cobb portraits, for those who didn't click on the links.

Now we're close to home, eh?

Wow, a half grade of "conservation" and the auction result increased over $3,000. :eek:

Part of that is the market was going up.

Not sure if anyone has said it yet, but..
 

"never get cheated"

Read my signature block. Do people see signature blocks by default?

When I was selling off my dad’s collection for him, most of the cards went through PWCC. In fact I was a pretty big supporter of Brent based on my dealings with him (“was” being the key word). The DiMaggio debacle was the start, but when this latest BS started getting unveiled, I thought back to some of his cards that got grades I was disappointed with that went through PWCC. The first one that came to mind was a 57 Starr that had great eye appeal, but a stain on the back. I wondered if it would show up as part of this. Sure enough, here it is...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2425

Surprised it still only got a 6 after the work. Based on the delay between auctions, I wonder if it was resubbed and/or reworked multiple times until he gave up.

It certainly wasn’t the most valuable card he had, but it was still really nice before being “conserved”.

Edit: Just remembered I posted about it when the original auction went up and included the raw pics in this thread -

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=221499

A number Forbes online contributors were involved, not too long ago, in a payola scandal where the writers were taking money for favorable pieces and links to certain companies.

This is merely a statement of fact. Draw your own conclusions.

https://glean.info/paying-contributi...thical-common/

Those "articles" always smelt like infomercials to me. ITS NOT SHOCKING!!!!

Right!!!! Wtf??? You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink ![/QUOTE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the PSA group sub was in progress BEFORE all this shit went down. And also, I am not trimming my low grade cards. So I am not supposed to ever get cards graded because of the shennigans of others???

I prefer "this stupid" to which my answer is yes, yes, they are this stupid.

It's official. I've spent way too much time this weekend trying to sift through and keep up with these threads. Helllllpppp!

As a small-time collector, and far from an expert, the concern this thread raises for me is, how much of this stuff has been circulating for years, or decades? If it was as simple as avoiding certain sellers, that's easy enough. But with the frequency cards are sold and traded, I would guess even the most reputable dealers in the hobby sometimes sell, unknowingly, cards that have been worked on.

Because, how could they know the difference, especially if it had been graded and slabbed?

Yep. Huge problem for both honest dealers and collectors even those who like me try to do their diligence and exercise extreme caution with some sellers.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the PSA group sub was in progress BEFORE all this shit went down. And also, I am not trimming my low grade cards. So I am not supposed to ever get cards graded because of the shennigans of others???[/QUOTE]

Umm... if the shenanigans are something that involves the grading company, and it looks more and more like they are involved, why would you want to
A) Give someone complicit in giving grades and thus approval as totally genuine to altered cards any business
B)Given that your stuff is fine, pay for the opinion of a company whose opinions are becoming more discredited daily.

May just as well bring back GAI, accucard, whoever that guy was who was pop riveting pictures cut from books into screwdowns… :confused::confused:

Also, I've noticed more and more that the quoting on the board has gotten weird.

One good thing that I noticed tonight.

When I go check prices on VCP, there is no longer an ad for PWCC. I think as recent as yesterday, whenever I accidently clicked on the right or left side of the screen, it would take me to the PWCC's site. It no longer happens today. Yaay.

If law enforcement gets involved I assume that Moser and others would verify that ALL of their submissions from the last x years are cards they worked on, like that 950 card submission shown earlier. Once that gets out then the PSA guarantee would be for ALL those cards and would get removed from the Registry.

This just sucks for the hobby, because it is not just a few cards or a few dozen cards; there are already thousands of cards involved and in holders, never to be removed as they get passed from buyer to buyer.

I am floored by how many sub $100 cards are involved with this.

You and I are on the same page. I still also suggest a front page article in the SMR Magazine.

The title of this thread
 

The title of this thread is about other card physicians practicing alteration or conservation or whatever you want to call it. Is there a handy list of the names, ebay accounts, etc for those who have not read the 1000's of notes on this between net54 and BO this weekend?

Tony

Other known card doctors getting cards past the Third Party Grading services and listing through PWCC, Probstein, etc. to cover their tracks:

Bill Sliheet - SSIGuy (Superior Sports Investments)
Samir Sliheet - Superior Sports Investments
Nate Nichols - affiliated with the Dallas area BGS trimmers
Will Jaimet - Heroes of Sport, submitter to PWCC
Gary Moser - eBay whitman111 vintage cards dating back to 1880s consigned to PWCC after grading by PSA
Eric Bitz - Buynicecards
Brian Deer- isellurcards (formerly Bristol Collectibles)
Kevin Burge- longtime modern card dealer
Robert Block - longtime trimmer of cards to BGS, submitted to PWCC
Brent Huigens - owner of PWCC, co-conspirator with many of these guys
Dick Towle - owner of Gone With The Stain
Steve Tormollan
Circumstantial Evidence: BGS giving preferential grades to WJCII (Joe Clemons), former employee "BLACK LABELGATE" 60+ page thread on Blowout.
Circumstantial Evidence: Gabriel Seraf replacing boring patches with SICK MOJO PATCHES

This one's pretty crazy too:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1251740

Breaker can't send packages from home in Texas because daughter is in hospital
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Drha10lU8AA8Pb1.jpg

Except scammer stole picture from internet article from Australia:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Drha10lU4AADKmI.jpg

Nate is still on our board. He has not been found to be trimming cards but WAS using a card trimmers account to get better pricing. I am told he doesn't use that account any longer. Besides Brent, I don't think any others on that list are on this forum.

Did you revoke Brent's account? He is on my list as well.

No. And I am also not doing other things you said I should do too.

Edit: misread your post. You did point out Brent still has posting priveleges.

I have asked Blowout to ban him, but it hasn't happened yet. Why he went back there, I have no idea.

Nate is still out recruiting submissions for BGS. And supposedly getting very good business.

IF Nate isn't doing anything wrong do you really need to report it? I spoke with him for a long time several weeks ago and told him if he used that scammers account then he will be known as a scammer too. I have never seen any proof whatsoever that he was scamming.

Oh, by "him" I meant PWCC Marketplace. Nate has already been banned from blowout.
I appreciate you removing Dick Towle at my request a year ago.

If a person is submitting cards for scammers, they're putting their own reputation on the line.

I do what I think is the right thing to do in each circumstance. I appreciate you understanding that. I do listen, read and then make my own judgement on each situation.

Umm... if the shenanigans are something that involves the grading company, and it looks more and more like they are involved, why would you want to
A) Give someone complicit in giving grades and thus approval as totally genuine to altered cards any business
B)Given that your stuff is fine, pay for the opinion of a company whose opinions are becoming more discredited daily.

May just as well bring back GAI, accucard, whoever that guy was who was pop riveting pictures cut from books into screwdowns… :confused::confused:[/QUOTE]


Maybe everyone should just quit the hobby then. According to you, the whole thing is corrupt anyway. Let's everyone just leave.

Maybe I have missed it, but have any other auction houses come out publicly and either confirmed they have not taken any consignments from Moser or admitted that they have taken consignments from him?

The hobby was around for a long time before grading. And will be around a long time after it.

I still don't understand giving more business to a company that from what I can see is either grossly incompetent. Or is involved in deliberately allowing altered cards to be graded.

But hey, it's PSA! They're the experts and final arbiters of all things cards. How dare we question them.... :confused::confused:

AHs are not going to confirm they have taken cards from known card doctors, of which there are many. IMO very few could deny it truthfully.

Not questioning them. But like I stated earlier, am I supposed to quit going to my gym because a few of the members there take steroids??? I know I DO NOT cheat. It's called ETHICS. It sounds like a few members need a class in it.

that gym analogy isn't a good one imo. would you keep going to the gym if it was proven that the gym equipment did't contribute to muscle building/overall health?

Oh, but the machines ARE working!! Compare myself to someone who doesn't work out at all (ie, a raw card) and you can see the difference. I sold a Mars Attacks checklist last night in PSA mid grade form for almost $1,000. If I were to sell the card raw, it would bring around 1/5 of that. Am I supposed to not get my cards graded because of the scams of others? Should I just leave the hobby entirely, as it is ALL corrupt?? I tell you what....you sell all your cards and never buy another card in your life and I will follow suit.

Let me be the first then.

I took cards from someone mentioned elsewhere in this series of threads. He is not, apparently, involved with PWCC, but I did not know he had a reputation for shenanigans. He consigned a bunch of wax which he disclosed to me failed BBCE. I looked at it all, shared the BBCE verdict with my buyers and offered my opinion on the items that I thought were obviously no good as well as the ones that were questionable. They brought nowhere near what "pure" unopened of a similar nature would have bought and buyers and consignor all seemed happy.

I was surprised to see his name, even tangentially, in these threads and it shouldn't be hard to figure out who it is. But he was honest and above board with me which is why I'm not going to out him by name.

I personally do not care what has been done to a card as long as the seller discloses any and all problems they know about.

As far as Scott goes, in my personal experiences with him I would say he is by far the most honest guy in the AH business. He won me over when he honestly described cards he sold for me.:)

If you were an athlete competing at a very high level, that answer would be yes.
Cycling requires a written itinerary of where off-season training will be done, and who you do it with. Going outside the written plan without advance written notice is taken as a potentially positive test. If you train with dopers, or dopers coaches, or see their doctors you get bumped into the next level of suspicion, and get extra scrutiny.

If you don't want to be associated with dopers, you can work out at home, or in a gym with a better reputation.


Similarly, PSA readily grades cards that are altered, possibly knowing they're altered. It now appears that altering and getting the card to pass is just as prevalent as doping in cycling (In other words, depending on era anywhere from rampant to almost required.)
I'd consider any card in a PSA holder as suspect. That doesn't mean of course that the submitter altered it, but my level on confidence that the grade is correct and that the card is not altered is currently very low.

To avoid this, just like the cyclist could train in a less suspect gym, or at home, a collector could collect cards that aren't graded, or are graded by someone else. (Admittedly difficult, since all the big 3 have problems, and the rest either don't have enough track record, or are worse. )

A sensible response is not to spend $200,000.00 for a 1957 Topps Sandy Koufax or $15,000.00 for a 1980 Topps Rickey Henderson because it's in a PSA 10 holder.

Of course, then, that would have been the sensible thing to do in the first place.

Yep, I've always thought it was insane how much people put blind faith into PSA, especially when it came down to so much money and such minimal grade (opinion) difference.

If anything, I hope this entire mess helps recalibrate collector mindset a bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAm...ature=youtu.be


CLCT down over 9% today.

I've always been baffled by that as well. Literally the very first card graded by the company was no good by their standards.

PSA: another for my wish list.

Decertify Cert# 00,000,001

Take it up with Ken Kendrick.

+1


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Yep. I’ve been saying this for years.


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Robert - DON’T stop collecting!


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No chance of that. As a matter of fact, I bought some sweet RAW T206 this weekend.

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I always assumed those that spent that kind of money had that kind of money?

What I hated to see/read about were those who took out loans or paid the sellers monthly payment amounts in order to get a desired card.

Personally, I've seen some cards that I definitely wanted but due to their price, even if I didn't have to take out a loan, there was just no way I was going to drop that kind of money.

Off topic but does anyone else now view 8's and 9's and especially 10's in a different light?
I was told about some cards for sale currently at an auction house that I looked into. In a lot was a PSA 9 card that of course looked great but in doing so, my first reaction was, it's likely been doctored. :(

What I am especially curious about is if PWCC will be shown to have been complicit in forging autographs that were then slabbed by PSA.

If so, that would cripple part of my collection (the instagram link in my sig for anyone curious).

I have never heard anything at all in that regard.

I've never heard they forged, but they've sold bogus autographs with goofball certs including a Michael Jordan Jersey.

estimate of the fraud involved
 

Anyone want to throw out some guesses on the potential fraud involved here? $100m, $200m, $500m, etc?

Will the folks with $10s or $100s of thousands of dollars involved seek restitution?

I seem to recall some 1950s cards selling for neary a half million.

How deep does this go? Seems like it will be 100x larger than the auto scandal.

It is tough to even guess but if reimbursements start going through I would probably bet against PSA having enough money to cover the full extent of treachery.

Too early to tell. And are you just talking Moser/PSA or all of the scammers, PWCC, BGS, and PSA?
The modern stuff is crazier than the vintage.

Look at the 1993 SP Jeter RC. I sold the PSA 8 I won from a PSA set registry contest a week or two ago for $725. PWCC sold one of the 22 PSA 10 copies for $99K recently. When their "server glitch" happened and they stored copies of their cards submitted by known scammers like Kevin Burge to another server, the $99K Jeter disappeared.

Was it trimmed/altered? Hard to prove. May be entirely circumstantial that modern baseball's version of 1952 Topps #311 Mantle happened to also be submitted by the guy that submitted copious amounts of trimmed cards. I think the owner should fly to PSA and have them check it again. PSA regularly spits that card back to its owners in a cardsaver for MINSIZREQ or EVIDTRIM. If you don't bring them the before and after picture (and how could you?), they know they owe you $100K if it's trimmed. And they know it will be a lead news story that they refunded someone $100K for incompetence.

Read the SSI Guy thread and the BuyNiceCards threads over on Blowout. This thing has been so pervasive with both companies either looking cross-eyed, the other way, or being paid to turn around, that I personally can't see PSA or BGS make it out of this scandal intact. But as they say, "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American customer."

Now if the PSA side of the scandal doesn't break them entirely or sic the Feds on them from their lack of guarantee reserve, does it make the guys with the PSA 8-10 T206 sets re-evaluate their trust in the product they already own?

I doubt it, but that could be another stress point.

But a big question, and one I've mentioned a couple of different places, is that they CHARGE UP TO $5,000 TO GRADE A SINGLE CARD. And if you can't trust them to grade a $500 card and not see that it's trimmed/color added/pinhole fixed/reglossed, who is going to pay them $5K to do the same "job"?

PSA charges $5K to grade high value cards? So it is in their best interest that their cards get record prices and those prices in turn raise the values on cards in general so they can charge more for grading them. Well, there's some motive for you to believe they could be in on the whole scheme with PWCC and Moser (and others). PWCC consistently gets them record prices way over current market values and PSA keeps feeding them high end cards to sell to get those record prices. Hmmmmm. :rolleyes: It's late and I'm tired so forgive me if I'm way out of line here. Just thinking out loud I guess.

So what happens to all the 'altered' cards that have been identified? Do they get the Scarlet Letter - 'A' for Altered - stamped on them? Do they continue to reside in their current holders? I would assume that if (and I don't see this happening anytime soon) PSA buys back the cards, then would they regrade them with an 'Altered' designation on the flip. And sell them back into the market?

If so, what would keep someone from breaking one out and resubmitting? Maybe ruffing up the edges a bit and looking for a numerical grade?

I believe Operation Bullpen items got stamped and donated to kids (at least the bats and balls). I assume the paper items were destroyed.

https://www.psacard.com/fees/

CARD AUTHENTICATION & GRADING
PREMIUM ELITE *$5000
Any card with a declared value of $100,000 or higher must be submitted at this service level.

PREMIUM PLUS *$3000
Maximum declared value of $99,999

PREMIUM *$1000
Maximum declared value of $24,999

WALK-THROUGH *$500
Maximum declared value of $9,999

SUPER EXPRESS *$200
Maximum declared value of $4,999

EXPRESS *$75
Maximum declared value of $1,999 and all T3s must be submitted at this service level or higher.

REGULAR *$20
Maximum declared value of $499

The really interesting thing is that not all cards are $50K cards or $1K cards. There is a wide mix of values of these cards. So if Moser or PWCC were submitting them properly, they would be in multiple orders all the way up and down this list. So the theory that 1 rogue grader would get all of Moser's submissions and pass the majority of those altered cards seems pretty shot. And the theory that this is only happening because of the 2018 grading backlog and the hiring of new employees this winter caused it, well many of the Certs found already were from 4+ years ago.

I asked that as one of about 100 questions I submitted for PWCC to answer in the Blowout thread in the Member Feedback section. I presume PSA will hold onto them currently in case the FBI comes knocking.

Here's a new wrinkle:
https://twitter.com/brentandbecca/st...22959170560000

https://i.imgur.com/h84RWm0.png

Happened 10 years ago at a company that presumably gives out 9.5 grades, per the link. Basically, "Spend a bunch of money with us, and I can promise you great grades that get better over time." Brentandbecca is a card seller that busts hundreds of cases of product annually and sells sets and inserts/autographs from those online. Doesn't grade because he didn't like being promised grades.

This was mentioned in the thread about the former Beckett employee that is continually getting BGS 10 Black Labels on such a high percentage of his submissions that it would be statistically impossible. For those that think there is no discernible difference between a PSA 9 and 10, BGS scores cards on a 9, 9.5, 10 subgrade system in four different components: centering, surface, edges, and corners. If your card gets an average of 9.5 on those subgrades, it gets a 9.5 Gem Mint. If it has three 10 subgrades, and one 9.5, it gets a standard Pristine 10. If all four subgrades are BGS 10
"quality", it gets a Pristine 10 BLACK LABEL.

Brian Gray of Leaf Trading Cards, checkered history he has as well, currently employs the former Beckett employee, and intends to look into the submissions for any funny business. But an audit of BGS's process in giving out grades to customers is coming.

D304 Wagner 2.5 to 4.5

Now working to regain your trust.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=100

That is also one of the things that has stopped me from getting my more valuable cards graded.
My Mantle is likely worth anywhere from $5,000 to $10,000 dollars but it would only take anyone of us or the TPG's about 30 seconds to determine that it is either going to get a PSA 1 or authentic grade?

I've never understood the higher fees for the more expensive cards. Do they actually spend more time evaluating them than they do less expensive cards, and if so, where is that line drawn?

It's more a liability issue of having an expensive card in their possession and it getting lost or damaged. Do you insure your Yugo and your Ferrari for the same price?

Higher fees for more expensive stuff is pretty standard for authentications in other hobbies too.

If the expert is a real expert, the authenticity end of things can be very fast in a more informal setting. The guy who looked at a couple stamps for me at the 2006 international show took less than a minute for both. He didn't grade, but recommended getting a formal certificate for one but not the other. (One a fairly expensive and totally genuine stamp, the other an india paper proof that had been altered to appear to be the issued stamp (perforations added) a difference of a couple hundred at catalog value, and way more with the apparent centering. That centering was actually his first point against as they rarely come that well centered, and sell for multiples of catalog value.

I think the grading companies are well aware that they are minting money for their customers, so wouldn't these higher fees be more in line with "we're making a lot of money for you, therefore we want a piece of the action too."

A true crime of the worst degree.

I think that's exactly right.

Agree.... Barry nailed it.

I tend to agree with Barry as well as it makes no sense to me that I have to pay a higher grading fee just to protect my own card?

I would think they would have insurance in case something were to happen to my card, no? :confused:

That insurance would cost more the more value you have in the building.

If I'm grading cards, and you've sent in a nice 81 topps common... and I spill my coffee... I pretty much just pay you a few bucks for the wrecked card and maybe decide to not drink coffee at the desk. I probably don't even tell the ins co.

If you've sent me a Wagner... even a total rag of a card is what half a million?
If I tell the ins co that I'll regularly have a million + of other peoples stuff in the building at any time, they'll want a whole lot to insure that.

I have 6 figures of consigned goods insurance costs me barely $1,000/ year

Make an 8 into a 9. 1950 Otto Graham.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2496

And makes tens (maybe hundreds) of thousands. That fake rough cut has been fooling PSA graders for years it seems.

What’s crazy is that he took a large slice off one side to make it centered and he KNEW it would get past the graders!

Evidently, a rough cut means a factory cut to all the graders at PSA.