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Ronnie73 01-28-2020 11:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan (Post 1951034)
Ron
I seldom (if ever) differ with you; however, my research places the St Louis variations of Demmitt and O'Hara in the 350/460 series print group. I note this in Post #134 in this thread.

Apparently, American Litho (ALC) started their first press run of the PB cards circa Summer of 1910. This 1st print run of PB backs was on approx. 136 subjects of the 350-only series.
Followed by the 2nd print run (circa Summer/Fall of 1910) of PB backs on the 66 subjects of the 350/460 Series. It's my contention, that ALC printed the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations in this PB press run.

Check-out my concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement.

Consider the following...…
Joe Doyle & Bob Rhoades (POLAR BEAR No-Prints) retired prior to this POLAR BEAR press run. So, those 2 guys are removed and replaced by Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations.



I arrived at this theory by comparing Pop Report data of Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations with subjects in the 350 series vs the 350/460 series. The population numbers
overwhelmingly suggest that the Demmitt and O'Hara (St Louis) variations fit in with the 350/460 print group numbers.


* Note I have shown the 6 super-prints Double-Printed on this arrangement because several large surveys have indicated as such.



TED Z
.
Hi Ted, I totally agree putting Demmitt STL and O'Hara STL in the 350/460 group. Looking at your Sovereign Apple Sheet, the first thing that jumped out at me was the group of Sweet Caporal "No Prints". Going by my list and your "Group A and B" lists, I was left with the following findings that were different.

http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/66.jpg

Replacing Doyle and Rhoades with the STL cards for the Polar Bears is a possibility. But what about Simon Nichols Batting? That card always ends up in my odd pile when breaking these sheets down. Plus its the most difficult Polar Bear, possibly more rare than the STL's.

Also, have all Sovereign Apple Greens with names on the top and bottom been different names? I thought that only happened in the 150 series.

tedzan 01-29-2020 07:55 AM
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie73 (Post 1951083)
Hi Ted, I totally agree putting Demmitt STL and O'Hara STL in the 350/460 group. Looking at your Sovereign Apple Sheet, the first thing that jumped out at me was the group of Sweet Caporal "No Prints". Going by my list and your "Group A and B" lists, I was left with the following findings that were different.

http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/66.jpg

Replacing Doyle and Rhoades with the STL cards for the Polar Bears is a possibility. But what about Simon Nichols Batting ? That card always ends up in my odd pile when breaking these sheets down. Plus its the most difficult Polar Bear, possibly more rare than the STL's.

Also, have all Sovereign Apple Greens with names on the top and bottom been different names? I thought that only happened in the 150 series.

Hi Ron

Regarding the Nichols card. Jantz Morey (GOD Bless his soul) and I shared theories about this "350/460" subject 12 years ago.
At that time, Jantz and I were the only ones that (that we knew of) who had this Nichols card with a POLAR BEAR back.
Jantz was working on a POLAR BEAR run, and clued me in as to how tough this Nichols card was.

Furthermore, Nichols' AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (no frame) and DRUM cards are quite rare. And I base this on Nichols early MLB
retirement in the Spring of 1910 (the A's traded him to Cleveland). My theory says ALC replaced Nichols with Jake Stahl during
these print runs (circa Summer of 1910). Check-out this story in Post #39 in this thread.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...cholsStahl.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...holsStahlB.jpg


TED Z
.

tedzan 01-30-2020 06:36 PM
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
 
* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...B350frameX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ADLEAF350b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350HaydenX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg


I received two emails this week from T206 POLAR BEAR (PB) collectors who (like most of us) had difficulty finding their T206 Nichols / PB cards.

Nichols (batting) Pop report data (PSA+SGC) shows 14 cards graded. There is no way of knowing how many of these cards are re-graded ones.

Anyhow, when compared with the other 65 subjects with PB backs in the "350/460" series, the Nichols / PB cards were obviously short-printed,
as the following Pop report data (PSA+SGC) examples indicate...…..

HOF

Bender (no trees)= 129
Cobb (with bat) = 225
Crawford (bat) = 169
Jennings (one hand) = 115
Jennings (one hands) = 102
Mathewson (dark cap) = 225

Commons

Bradley (bat) = 67
L. Doyle (bat) = 91
Elberfeld (fielding) = 88
Leach (cap) = 96
Street (catching = 88


My Nichols / PB is not a pretty looking T206 (with its Tobacco stains); nevertheless, it's no worse than some of my other POLAR BEAR's.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...sPolarBear.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PolarBearB.jpg


TED Z
.

Ronnie73 01-31-2020 05:23 AM
Here's a couple of mine.

http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/nicholsfront.jpg
http://www.unclenacki.com/net54/nicholsback.jpg

rommesc 02-01-2020 09:24 AM
More Nichols PB
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here are my two Nichols PB cards; I’ve owned 3. Agree that it is a very challenging front/back combo for a Polar Bear set collector.

tedzan 02-02-2020 05:17 PM
T206 REFERENCE..Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS
 
* * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...B350frameX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ADLEAF350b.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350HaydenX.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ldDRUMx25b.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpg


Ron and Chris,

Thanks much for displaying your PB cards of Nichols. Between the 5 of us (including the 2 emailer's), we have accounted for 50% of the known PB cards of Nichols.

This focus on the T206 Nichols-PB card may seem insignificant to some of you, however it indeed tells us that American Litho ceased printing the Nichols card early
in the print runs of the 350/460 Series cards.

Simon Nicholls retired from MLB April 25, 1910. He was very unhappy when Connie Mack traded him to Cleveland (Dec 1909). Manager Jack Dunn of the Baltimore
Orioles (Eastern League) purchased Nicholls (May 1910). This move enormously pleased Nichols, as he was playing regularly and was close to his farm in Maryland.
Furthermore, Jack Dunn named him the Orioles' field Captain for the 1911 season.


GO - GO KANSAS CITY Chiefs

I still remember 50 years ago when the CHIEFS upset the VIKINGS (23 - 7). Hank Stram and Lenny Dawson proved the so-called "FB experts" were all wrong :)


TED Z
.

tedzan 02-10-2020 06:10 PM
T206 Refer....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Bty 460 run. Show your favorite run
 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...BatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bbBat12xzz.jpg


Back in 2005, I broke up my T206 set (521 cards) in order to assemble an all PIEDMONT set. The Zach Wheat card in this set, with its AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 back
being a Factory #42 card intrigued my interest. This suggested that the AB 460 cards were printed at the very tail-end of the T206 press runs (circa Jan-Feb 1911).
Tail-end press runs usually result in Short-Printed cards (e.g. UZIT). Therefore I expected a challenging adventure. However I never expected a 15-year long search
for some of these AB 460 cards. Some are not too difficult (for example the Exclusive 12). However, there are about 2 dozen cards that are very, very tough to find.



http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...chWheat50x.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...hWheat50xb.jpg




Recently, acquired the Larry Doyle portrait, which is my 73rd card in this sub-set of 74 subjects.

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...lePortrait.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ePortraitB.jpg


__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
LOOKING for one more T206 card to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)..... A $100 reward to anyone who finds an AB 460 of this Camnitz for my set



TED Z
.

RCMcKenzie 02-11-2020 09:52 AM
Doyle AB460
 
6 Attachment(s)
Congratulations on finding the Doyle AB460, Ted, and good luck with Camnitz (hands over head). You are almost to the AB460 finish line.

I have a little Howell port back run going. I might have already posted about this, but here are a few...

tedzan 02-11-2020 06:28 PM
T206 Refer....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Bty 460 run. Show your favorite run
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie (Post 1954397)
Congratulations on finding the Doyle AB460, Ted, and good luck with Camnitz (hands over head). You are almost to the AB460 finish line.

I have a little Howell port back run going. I might have already posted about this, but here are a few...

Thanks, Rob.

There is only one known Camnitz / AB 460 card....and, the guy who has it is not willing to part with it.

I don't blame him.

Good Luck on your Howell run.


TED Z
.

tedzan 02-11-2020 07:56 PM
T206 Refer....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Bty 460 run. Show your favorite run
 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...350x460x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...BatP460x11.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...gsSGC60x12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...bbBat12xzz.jpg



If any of you are considering an AB 460 run, shown here are the real tough cards in this T206 sub-set. And, Camnitz (hands over head) is extremely tough to find.

You will find the "Exclusive 12" subjects to be more available with the AB 460 backs than the other 62 subjects in this sub-set. Good Luck.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ffAB460x50.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ningsSGC60.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ChiBost50x.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ogOldringX.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...McGrawCapX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ersHowellX.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...PortraitXx.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...WagnWilh12.jpg




This Wiltse (cap) is extremely difficult to find. Certain cards displayed here are considerably tougher to find than others. Which suggests to me American Litho printed
the AB 460 cards in 3 separate stages. The Exclusive 12 print run....then a print run of about 30 moderately rare cards....and, about 30 more that are very rare cards.

.http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eJordan25x.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...Jordan25bk.jpg


__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
LOOKING for one more T206 card to complete my AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 sub-set (74 subjects)

CAMNITZ (hands over head)..... A $100 reward to anyone who finds an AB 460 of this Camnitz for my set


TED Z
.


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