T206 Reference....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...vereign12x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x14.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...edHINDUx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...CobbSGCx12.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...eign460x13.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ITxSGC30xx.jpg
.........Six members of the Red Ink Twins club.…..…


LAST CALL......for your T206 Red Ink Twins cards. If you have them, then why not show them......Thanks.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...HINDUx25bx.jpg------http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tCap460x42.jpg


I have posted all twelve Red Ink Twins in the Exclusive 12 group (Posts #948, 952-956, 958-960) with their HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 backs.
Plus Twins of Hal Chase and "Turkey Mike" Donlin from the 350/460 Series. There are 33 more subjects remaining in this Series. Refer to the Checklist in Post #945
for the guys in this Series. And, you may be surprised to find in your T206 collection that you have a Twin (or two).


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpg


I recently received a couple of emails from Net54 "readers" (I hate the term "lurker") regarding my theory for why a fair number of the Wagner cards have originated from
the Long Island, NY area. Post #824 here speculates that Joseph Knapp, the founder of the American Lithographic Company (ALC), who had a Summer home in Suffolk Co.
Long Island may have been the source of Wagner cards from that area. What I am suggesting is that when ATC was forced to discontinue printing Wagner's image on T206
cards, ALC had by that time printed up many 1st Series cards which included Wagner (and Plank). Visits to his Summer home, Mr. Knapp would take a number of discarded
Wagner cards with him and handed them out to his children, their friends, and neighbors. If so, these Wagner's eventually found their way into NY residents' collections.

I am sure that some of you may think this theory is a far-fetched result of my "wild" imagination. Whatever, I base this theory on three experiences which I was fortunate to
have in the early 1980's. I'll present the most significant one first in this post. And the other two experiences in a forthcoming post. So bear with me, as you'll find this story
quite interesting.

I was doing research in 1981 regarding a BOWMAN article I was writing for Bob Lemke's BaseBall Cards magazine. The real genius of the BOWMAN Gum Co. was George Moll.
George and Warren Bowman were close business associates. The Moll Advertising Agency in Abington, PA created in 1938 the Horrors of War cards, 1939 - 1941 PLAY BALL
cards, War Gum (1941 - 1943) cards, and 1948 - 1955 BOWMAN Sportscards & Non-Sportscards. Originally, these cards were marketed as GUM, Inc. (1939 - 1943). After
WWII as the BOWMAN Gum Co.
I was invited to George Moll's home to interview him. It was a very informative 2 - 3 hour discussion on how the BOWMAN cards were produced. The artwork, how they were
printed, etc. Afterward, George took me upstairs to his display room where he showed me his awesome collection of uncut sheets of Sports & Non-Sports cards. Albums with
cards from 1938 - 1955 in unbelievable Mint condition. Artwork created by the artists employed at his Advertising Agency. Plus, a good number of BB cards which BOWMAN
never issued. The entire day was an absolutely surreal experience.


Let's have a discussion of your thoughts, personal experiences, etc. regarding the provenance of T206 Wagner cards ?



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TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpg



My 2nd experience, which was a factor in forming my Wagner card source theory, occurred in May 1985. An old friend and Show promoter, Bob Bartosz, called me
from his BB card shop in Cherry Hill, NJ. He was very excited as he said.... "Ted, you have to see what just came into my shop, it's really awesome". I told Bob I'd
be there within an hour. An elderly gentleman with 8 original metal printing plates was at Bob's shop. Bob and I were astonished as we realized the significance of
these plates. Each plate (approx. 22" x 17") had 32 images on it. The total number of images on 7 of the 8 plates comprised of the 224-card 1954 BOWMAN set.
The duplicate plate had images of cards #65 - 96. YES, believe it or not, there were 2 plates with the #66 Ted Williams image on them. I emphasize this since you
old-timers may recall that back in the 1970's - 1980's that the explanation for the Ted Williams card being scarce was...… "the printing plate was broken".
Well, that "myth" was certainly dispelled that day in May.
The gentleman was a former BOWMAN employee, who was not in any hurry to part with these 8 plates. Stay tuned for the rest of this story. It has a happy ending.

Plus, there is a 3rd experience which I will post so you can see where I'm coming from regarding my theory.

Meanwhile, you guys who are fortunate to own (or have owned) the T206 Wagner card please share with us your inputs on this subject.


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...edwilliams.jpg


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpg


My 3rd experience, which factors into forming my Wagner card theory occurred in 1982. I was set-up at a BB card Show at a Mall in Media, PA. Across from my table was
a Hobby Shop. I was curious as to what kind of goodies they were selling. Boy, I was in for a real surprise. Displayed on the wall of the shop as you entered were 5 uncut
BOWMAN sheets. I asked the Mgr. if they were for sale and what was the price ? The Mgr. replied that a former employee of Zabel Bros. Printers (BOWMAN's printer) had
brought the BB card sheets into the shop just day before, and he would have to do some homework. The following day he came over to my table, looked over my display
of cards and asked me if I would be interested in a cash/trade deal ? I said it sounds good to me. I had a Mantle (1951) rookie which he wanted and 1950's Phillies cards.
So, he got the Mantle and the Phillies cards and some $$, and I took all 5 sheets.

Stay tuned for more info.

I thought you may like to see these sheets (I sold the 1953 BOWMAN sheet, so here are the other four)......


https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...manbbsheet.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...seriesheet.jpg


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...5thSheet6x.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...hSheet6xxA.jpg



Large card version

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...eetLarge50.jpg



TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)
 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE.......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...nerRptx207.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...raphicbldg.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...30Hindu12x.jpg


OK getting back to the subject matter here, the most significant original sheet which has surfaced these past 35 years is the one that the Gretzky T206 Honus Wagner card
was hand-cut from. It's a shame that this sheet was not left un-cut for at least a picture of it.
The closest I ever got to a Wagner card was in 1985 at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania. Friday afternoon, before the Show opened, Bill Mastro was shopping around
this famous Wagner card (before it was famous). He was going from room to room at the Lodge, and he came to our room where 4 of us dealers were trading cards. We all
examined this card very closely and were very impressed with it. Bill was asking $30K for it (an unprecedented amount at that time for a BB card).
Besides, after Bill left the room the consensus of our opinions were that it had been hand-cut. The PIEDMONT 150 back intrigued me since 95% of the Wagner cards known
back then had SWEET CAPORAL backs.

Needless to say, this card was the "talk of the Show" all weekend in Willow Grove. Furthermore it was rumored that an Eddie Plank card was Wagner's "sheet-mate". Mastro
did not show it, though (at least not to us guys). Many years later we did get to see this Plank card. It was in Charlie Conlon's collection. And, here it is.......

http://i.imgur.com/35DTo.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/zDCvv.jpg



Hey guys, I would appreciate some responses to what I have presented here. If you think my theory regarding the possibility of Mr. Knapp taking home some Wagner cards
hot off the presses at American Lithographic is sort of "kooky", then I will listen to your story why a fair number of Wagner cards have originated from the NYC area.


TED Z
.

Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened.

It's also possible that some had been shipped to the cigarette factory for packaging and that a distributor who serviced the Long Island area just happened to have their order filled from packs that had already been packed with the Wagner before it was pulled.

I know I took home a few things from the place I worked. Flourescent orange sticker material trimmed from the sheet of some sticker we printed. A "Danger active class 4 laser range" sign. Some maps of a sewage and drainage system and an airbase.. Interesting stuff. If we had done cards of any kind I would have asked for whatever I could get, and they probably would have let me have most of the production materials as long as the client didn't want them. The only stuff that got saved was the masks an color separations in case of a reorder.

T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)
 

Hi Steve
I appreciate your response....."Knapp taking a few cards or sheets home is something that could have happened."

Yes most of us take home "goodies" from our work places. I used to take home Electronic power units, Transistors, and a Magnetron (transmitter unit of a 10-Gigahertz Radar set).

Your 2nd paragraph is not really possible in this situation. The Wagner (Plank, etc.) are PIEDMONT Factory #25 cards that were shipped to the Richmond, Virginia ATC factory #25.
PIEDMONT F#25 cards were inserted in cigarette packs that were marketed in the Southern states & Pennsylvania.
Factory #30 cards (LENOX, SWEET CAP, TOLSTOI, UZIT) were marketed in New York, New Jersey and New England.
Any way, that's my understanding how ATC distributed their various brands.

Take care, Steve


TED Z
.

T206 REFERENCE......Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)
 

Steve B

When you worked in a Print shop, did you guys trash all mis-prints, errors, etc....or, take some with you ?

I had a part-time job in a Print shop during my High School days. Being the "pack-rat" that I am, I would
take home some of the printing rejects. At that age, I was really fascinated by the printing business.


TED Z
.

It was also my HS job, part time during school, and full time in the summer. The place cross trained us, and most of the full time guys were able to handle other jobs in the place. Some had started as sweepers.
I eventually worked a bit of time in every department except the front office. I also didn't get to run the paper cutter, but was around them every day.


The other guys as far as I know didn't take any misprints home. A lot of them got turned over and used as make-ready sheets. I took home a few finished things that may have been misprints or may have been just overruns. (Everyone starts printing something like 125 sheets if the order is for 100 ) but no misprints. If they were misprints, the problems were very minor. We were a fairly high quality low production shop. Many jobs were under 10,000 finished pieces.

None of the other guys were at all interested in problems. They knew what caused them, avoided it if possible, and didn't let the bad stuff get delivered.
There was that one time a couple of them made fake concert tickets and sold them to a scalper... I only knew because I found one of the plates when I grabbed it out of the scrap stack to use as a dustpan. But that wasn't defective stuff, just highly irregular.

They were very tolerant of me bringing in a messed up card a couple times and asking " How did this happen?" Although they did think it was weird that I collected cards with printing errors.

If we had printed any sort of cards, or something interesting like that as much of the scrap/plates etc as I could carry/ask for/sneak out would have come home with me.

I've never really tried to find out how many of the SC Wagners are factory 30. Just a quick google search found at least two, and a couple SC25s.

The split between factory 30 and 25 and where each was discovered would be really interesting, as the distribution you talk about sounds right.
If there are a lot of 25s coming from long Island or New England, that would be a big point for someone taking sheets or cards home with them.
I think factory 25 must have had some distribution in that area though, when I started being interested, piedmonts were of course common, and made up the bulk of the collections that came in to the local dealer.