American Greed-CNBC
 

Tonight at 10pm et American Greed focuses on Bill Mastro. Should be interesting.

This is the third thread on this subject today. Seems like a popular topic. :D

i wish i had cable tv!

Thanks for posting this, even if others have I didn't see it before now. I'll be watching for sure.

I hear it is channel 355 (CNBC as mentioned) on Direct TV....can't wait...

I'm seated and ready

If any CDN's know what channel this is on, I'd appreciate the info, but I think I/we am SOL, sadly. :mad:

Just received a PM. Channel 79 here in Oshawa with Rogers cable. :)

There should be a rule: If you own a 1933 Goudey Lajoie, you have to be able to pronounce his name correctly.

Was just flipping through channels and found it on now!

Absolutely Correct !!!

And also not claim that it's the 2nd rarest card out there. Half the members on this board probably have something rarer :rolleyes:

Lots of interesting facts coming out. Things I was unaware of...my bad.

Fascinating to quote Mr. Spock

Can anyone explain the Goudey Ruth 53 initially in a low grade SGC and then in a PSA 6? What was the story behind that?

The guy that paid 500 bucks for a box of cards from an unknowledgable seller is just as bad in my opinion.

Mark

American Greed
 

I hope Brent and Betsy at PWCC are watching! :)

Haven't seen anything I wasn't already aware of that had happened or is currently happening with auction houses that are on eBay right now.

Poor guy who made only 49k on his $500 garage sale purchase. I'm sure he went back to the guy he bought them from and said "I ripped you off. Here is 24k." He's whining about getting ripped off when he raped the guy for $500. Can't say I felt for him. I will say that I would kill for that Dihigo postcard Ryan has.

Isn't lichtman on this site?

Totally agree here. Interesting that PSA substantially upgrades an SGC graded Ruth for Mastro. Especially when any SGC card submitted to PSA now would get a downward adjustment. Yet PSA cards bring a premium over SGC? Not that SGC is better than PSA (or BVG), or vice versa, but man.....

Tonights show
 

Nice job Jeff and Ryan !! Tonight's show was informative
and remembering watching the FBI floating around the Nationals was always fun.

I know Ryan and can vouch for his character. He came off very well tonight. The show didn't seem cohesive or very well put together. The Evers fellow added nothing to the program in my opinion.

Yes, and irrespective of whatever his detractors want to say, Jeff was one of, if not the first, people to call Mastro and Allen out He gets lots of credit from me for that. Ryan Christoff is also a member and he also deserves a ton of credit. Fair is fair.

Kenny

Evers
 

His whole story came off very poorly. He rips off a guy at a garage sale and the cries that he got ripped off by poor auction result to the tune of a 45k profit. His story about the "pristine" Aaron rookie was comical. The only interesting part was the potential evidence of the Ruth being resold by Mastro at a higher grade.

It could have easily been sold, shipped, reholdered and reconsigned.

+1

I presume that you are only talking about the one guy on the show. Because for those of us who repeatedly bid in Mastro's fixed auctions and won, at least for me, the whole story once again makes my blood boil.

The title of his post was Evers so I am presuming that's who he was referring to.

Evers
 

Yes I was only referring to the Evers part of the story

Elvis hair ...
 

How pathetic !

I'm apparently in the minority in not caring what Evers paid for that box of cards. If his story is true (very well could be a lie), then he offered the guy $500 just by looking at 4 cards. The seller must've been happy with it if he accepted right away. Either way it was a deal... but a major auction house stealing some of the cards from his group and advertising it poorly so they could buy it? That's flat out fraud. And that story about the Elvis hair... wow I had never heard about that but that's just stupid. Imagine if Goldin, REA, or Heritage was doing something like that

Sounds to me like we are all both victims and victors in the world Mastro created.


I wonder if we would be as interested in the hobby if the money wasn't there.

No one is saying he defrauded the guy. He just didn't paint a sympathetic figure. A guy whining about getting ripped off when he made nearly 50k by essentially ripping off someone is almost as obnoxious as his pronunciation of "Lajoie."

I would be willing to bet that, if any members were in the same situation, they'd be pretty upset too. But yeah, 49K from $500 is not a bad return!

Plus he didn't sound very knowledgable about the industry and his story didn't make sense. How can he be pissed with Mastro when it was SGC who graded his cards? What cards were missing? Ryan did really well and Jeff appeared far more reserved than I perceived him.

The only thing with that Evers guy ...
 

My BS meter was working overtime every time he spoke . I can't believe his garage sale story . Who knows ? Again that's what greed does to us I guess .

Agreed. The guy said the Lajoie was the second rarest of all baseball cards :confused: but didn't he say that Mastro didn't even include the Lajoie and several other cards in the listing? Or were they just not shown off as much as he would have liked... he wasn't very clear on that

Does anybody know if this can be seen online? Got a link?

I am with you, I don't care what someone paid for cards. Isn't the Evers gentleman a member here. I remember someone posting a very similar story on here about Mastro ripping them off in the same way.

My interpretation was that Mastro Auctions intentionally omitted listing out the exact cards received on the auction agreement (the cards that he brought to their offices in person) and basically stole them from him by never listing them in the auction he was a part of thereby cutting the gentlemen out of cards he consigned but were never recorded.

I'd have to go see if I still had that Catalog from 2007 but again this gentleman is talking as if his cards were MINT like so many other people tend to do with their own RAW cards. Plus someone couldn't have bought the lot broke it down and graded a few cards....kept a few cards for themselves....and sold off the rest by consigning the rest back to Mastro Auctions? If everyone knew back then that Mastro Auctions was getting the best prices around....why wouldn't you consign the remaining cards back to Mastro?

I can't believe how many are taking Mastro's side in Evers' case. They literally stole from him. They did the same thing to a local friend of mine who sent them a ton of early football memorabilia. They completely ignored his instructions to list the important and valuable programs separately. They lotted them all up and didn't even mention the highlights in the listing.

And does anyone really still believe that "gypsy" story with regards to Lionel Carter?

My post was the first reference to the guy with the shoebox. I did not defend Mastro at all. Never have. Never would. The shoebox guy has every right to be pissed because it does appear the Mastro took advantage of him.

However, I think it's fair to say he took advantage of the original seller. He mentioned someone else was coming up the driveway and he had to hurry and make the deal. In my opinion he took complete advantage of an unsuspecting seller. If this sale was on eBay, or from someone who held themselves out as a dealer, I would have no issue. But it wasn't portrayed that way. It was some individual who got screwed by a flipper. Bit I guess that shouldn't be a surprise in the baseball card world. There are a ton of guys in this hobby that have no problem conducting business by duping people.

Mark Medlin

Yeah, something doesn't seem right with that garage sale story.

Evers should not be the focus of this thread. He did nothing wrong.

I believe every AH and eBay seller that shills their items should watch this video because this might wake them up.

As I was watching the show on how the Wagner card was altered, I keep thinking of the 1936 Joe Dimaggio rookie debacle with PWCC.

I have to say that I went back and read my letters from Lionel Carter recently about the attempted theft, and when you realize that it was this crime that prompted him to consign his collection to Mastro, it is extremely suspicious.

Gypsies, who knew exactly where he kept his cards. And Doug somehow KNEW in advance that all would be returned.

Mastro should've kept the fake Elvis hair and built himself a nice toupee.

Agreed...I'm sure everyone here would've cut the guy a check for 50K on the spot. :rolleyes:

The initial posts about the theft were very suspicious. I also know of one instance, on a significant card, where Doug was apparently able to convince (or told) SGC that a card that was submitted to them was from the Carter collection when it absolutely was not. It was submitted to them long after the Carter collection was sold and was done in an effort to make this card worth more money for the owner, who knowingly went along with the fraud.

I think the point about the $500 garage sale buyer is he is a victim of karma... a illegal thief stealing from a 'legal' thief is not as sympathetic... versus just a regular guy selling cards....moral judgments i guess on that guy... it is interesting that the guy did say 'i only saw 4 of the cards' when i made the offer....which is a moral justification if true...but we all know thats a lie, had to have seen more.. so its his character we have a problem with even though he appears to have been a huge victim of fraud.

I have to say it..but out of all the american greed episodes this one appeared to be one of the worst ones.....if i wasnt into baseball cards i dont know if i would of watched the whole thing...there wasnt any running from the law or big court room drama.....no fake kidnappings for fake deaths......the wagner being trimmed was already discussed a lot on tv shows like espn 30 for 30...also we dont hear any comments from the fraudsters.. we also dont hear that much about the luxurious lifestyles...no siberian tigers in the lawn etc..

+1.

Not taking Mastros side at all here. But the show did not paint Evers as a sympathetic figure and read more like a dude who thinks his perceived gold mine wasn't quite as lucrative as he thought. Which as we know happens in LOTS of deals. I would have liked them to focus more on any proof that Mastro stole cards or improperly listed them to buy them at a fraction of their value (did Mastro bid on and win the original lot?). Only so much they can do in an hour.

I did think the federal agents were very well spoken and seemed to understand the business and how Mastro/Allen subtlety shaved profits out of the industry

Bogus Grade
 

Evers apparently made himself an expert on grading and said that the Aaron rookie was to quote him "pristine." Really? appeared not to have even been holdered in that gold mine box he bought for peanuts.

Just curious...What are the tax implications of a score like that? Turning $500 into $49K. Does the gov't get half? That story inspired me to go tag saling this weekend and I want to be prepared. :)

Never watched American Greed before. Although I know almost all of the story and knew the ending would be anticlimactic, I assume most non-hobby viewers felt the same. I could believe much of the Evers story except I don't know any collector, even new to the hobby, who wouldn't be thumbing through that box and hence some sort of ballpark value. Is it just me or did '58 Topps get more visual airtime than any other card- even the Wagner? Must be those garish colors ;)

It's funny, I actually agree with this 100%. Last week's episode, I believe, was about a couple who blew up a whole neighborhood by rigging a gas leak explosion for the insurance. If I wasn't head over heals for baseball cards, I would have found this episode devoid of relevance or sympathy for any "victims."

Yeah, as a martial arts guy I watched First Blood with back in the day said about the fight scene in the police station, too many right angles. I can't remember the details fully now, but as I recall Greg we both noted some weirdness at the time like the gypsy explanation, and Doug stating confidently the cards would be returned when he could have had no way of knowing and reason would tell you it was highly unlikely (how many thieves return the goods intact?). And then there were some discrepancies between Doug's account and Rob Lifson's account when supposedly the thieves contacted Rob.

As one of those who defended Mastro and company in the early days of Jeff Lichtman's outing of their misdeeds, I have concluded that I owe him an apology. At the time, it seemed unfair to tar them without offering specific proof, but if I had taken the time to look into Jeff's background I would have realized how qualified he was, from several standpoints, to be making those allegations. At any rate, anything that helps clean up the hobby is worthy of plaudits, so good work, Jeff!

+2

I was bored and actually fell asleep with twenty minutes to go. I had to
rewind on the DVR.

Tough crowd. Thought it was great, but I'll watch anything on TV relating to the hobby and starring people I know.

Mastro / Ruth grading
 

Can anyone explain the difference in grading on the Ruth Goudey ?
I am searching for the catalogs that first had it in a group and then was sold separately . Can anyone identify the two different catalogs in question ? I believe the first offer ( by group ) was Dec. 2007 . When was it offered as a PSA 6 as individual lot ?
Again , assuming it was the same card , I've seen no good explanation for the discrepancy in grading ( different companies aside ) .

According to Evers it appeared in an auction 6 months later.

Sigh.
 

Forgive me for what I about to say. Most people won't care, anyway.

What a boring episode of American Greed. I set the DVR and was excited, et al, and literally had to pinch myself to stay awake.

Not only did I not learn anything new about the scandal, but that was just bad television.

CLB

I agree, and we all owe them a ton of gratitude for doing so!

......................and PSA.;)

This is the statement that got me:

"Crime absolutely pays, and it pays a lot"

Also, sign me up. I'll do 2 years in prison for millions!

The main fact that I learned from the episode is that the trimming was done with a standard paper cutter. I figured someone cutting a Honus Wagner would be using a high precision CAM/CAD die cutting machine. I would be shaking like a virgin on prom night cutting that card with a paper cutter

With over 8500 registered members there is going to be every different opinion under the sun. My wife and I watched it. I asked her today at lunch if she thought it was good. She said "yeap". Personally I thought it was great. It was well put together, polished and professional. I just wish the episode was 3-4 hours instead of 1.

.

I thought they did an excellent job with the show, especially since there was really 3 or 4 hours of material to cover and only 1 hour to do it in. That’s the reason it seems like more should have been covered. There simply wasn’t time. I would have liked to have seen a little more focus on Doug Allen, for example. Mark Theotikos literally wasn’t even mentioned. Nothing about John Rogers, either. They also could have talked about how several former Mastro employees who were involved in shady practices there now work for major auction houses. Or the shill bidding list, which outs several board members as shill bidders. So when there’s an entire thread about whether or not PSA got a free pass, I just don’t see it. There simply wasn’t enough time. PSA would have been low on my list of what I wanted to see covered, behind all of the people I just mentioned.

I thought Jeff Lichtman did a great job and I hope more of his detractors will take Hank’s classy lead and give him the credit he deserves. You can still think he’s an asshole, but he deserves a lot of credit for his role in all of this.

Brian Brusokas (FBI) was excellent, but I wish we’d gotten to hear more from him. Many of you will remember him from the National when he spoke at the Net54 dinner. Brian is far too humble to ever acknowledge it, but he was the driving force behind this entire investigation, and without him, Bill Mastro and Doug Allen would still be ripping people off to this very day. The entire hobby owes him a HUGE debt of gratitude for everything he did and continues to do for us. His impact on this hobby has been quietly and anonymously enormous, and all of it for the greater good. Oh, also, he was the only one on the show to pronounce “Honus” correctly. Respect.

I don’t know that Evers guy, but it’s weird to me that everyone is so focused on him. I think he rubbed everyone the wrong way when he bragged about his $500 garage sale score than he “only” got $49,000 for. It was a bad look. Personally, he lost me the minute he said “La-jwahhhhhh” and then said it was the second rarest card in the hobby. It was clear that he’s not one of us. He was just a guy that got a deal on some cards at a garage sale and then tried to sell them with Mastro. But I have no problem with his $500 deal. He didn’t rip the seller off. The seller agreed to sell. That’s how garage sales work. It could have easily been a box of fakes and he'd have been out $500. It shouldn’t matter what he paid, the cards are still the cards, and he still got burned by Mastro. Although, I’m not sure about the Goudey Ruth and how that went down, because it’s not impossible that someone bought it the first time, got it into a PSA holder and then re-consigned it. But I think he was probably right that Mastro kept it in house and re-listed it in the new holder. In a perfect world, the time spent covering that would have gone to more Doug Allen coverage or some of the other things I mentioned earlier. But there’s no 1-hour show that was going to please everybody. I thought it was produced well and really enjoyed it.

I think a lot of people might have missed what I thought was the funniest part of the whole show when Peter Nash made a brief cameo. A classic, perhaps unintentional, easter egg.

Sorry there weren’t enough Siberian tigers and murders to prevent your narcolepsy from taking over. It’s not every day there’s an entire hour of television specifically about our hobby. I guess that’s not entertaining enough for everyone, though.

-Ryan

No narcolepsy here. Maybe I needed to see the 1975 Dave McNally card
being flipped through the card boxes a few more times if they weren't
going to have Siberian tigers or strippers on the poles.

I am glad with the outcome of FBI investigation though!

Tony

Last night, I sat down and watched the episode. If you are not in the hobby that show had to be boring as heck. I agree with others in that there are so many other threads to the episode that given time could have been explored.

I could careless about the garage sale man being purportedly ripped off by Mastro. Who in their right mind would leave a potential gold mine of cards without a full inventory of said box?

Question, do members here believe Mastro made the hobby what it is today?

I think one of the best bits of wisdom on the show was from the reporter:

"There is a greed factor here too, where all of a sudden the cards that my mom put in the basement 35 years ago are suddenly going to allow me to retire and buy an island in the caribbean, and it just doesn't make sense.. right, because at the end of the day these cards are just pieces of cardboard. "

So does everyone believe or assume that auction houses, dealers with large monthly submissions receive special treatment from the grading houses?

Question, at some point (I apologize if this has already occurred), one of the card companies will team up with one of the grading services and insert a redemption card for a certified "10" card. Given that scenario, does the customer still feel a "10" is still possible by purchasing a pack of cards? Do the grading companies take a hit for being in bed with the card companies?

....and don't forget dollar bills are just pieces of paper ;)

Well it sounds easy, but its not an easy decision..lots of factors.

but woudl you do 2 years with a 1% chance of getting killed or worse (yes worse) in prison. People in prison will know that you are about to get millions when you get out. Those people may be low max security, but they may know people on the outside..plus you got to deal with the guards and some low max people are mad max people... those mad max people have a history of knowing how to get money out of people, whatever it takes.

Would you give 2 years away from your thirtys? how about fortys? We dont know how long we will live plus money does come and go. How many millions are we talking about......

I have a stupid, almost off topic question. Did anyone else notice that all of the players in the black & white film footage that was shown had their numbers printed on large squares of paper that were pinned to their uniforms? What's the deal with that?

I noticed that too!
Plus they showed the same scene 3 or 4 times though out the episode

Uni #s: Looked to be footage from an all-star game where they redid the players' usual #s with the batting lineup #s for the game.

Jeff: Great job! Succinctly laid out the issues and explained the consequences of what Mastro did quite well. I was very pleased they left in your summation of the overall impact on the hobby that this bubble of artificially inflated prices had. Do you think that Mastro junked the bidding records because you were on to him and he was afraid of the evidence you might uncover if you sued?

Ryan: Also a great job! You were the humanizing face of this situation. Your story about your passion for the history of the Negro Leagues and your hunts for their cards really gave some insight into why we collectors focus on the things we do. Did anyone catch the email Ryan sent to Doug the Thug with the tag line "F--k you and your threats." Classic!

As far as that Evers fellow goes, as I understood the story (it was a bit convoluted), he brought Mastro a large lot of cards, they gave him a bums' rush on intake, did a poor job selling them and possibly kept some, bought some themselves or through cooperating co-conspirators, then resold with proper lotting and higher graded slabs. Whether he made a killing or not is irrelevant: I have to admit if I was at a garage sale and found a box like that I'd snap it up for as little as I could pay. A willing seller's ignorance is my competitive advantage, because he could have gotten off his ass and researched too. Evers' douchebag personality does not excuse what Mastro did to him: you don't get to rip off someone just because he's a dick, though there is some karmic justice in the story. The real cautionary note here is that if you consign a bunch of stuff you MUST get a detailed inventory signed by the AH and if they won't take the time, go elsewhere. When I consigned a large lot to Heritage a few years ago (over a thousand items) I sat down and did a card by card inventory on a spreadsheet that I printed out. When I met with the Heritage rep, he and I went through line by line, he initialed every page indicating receipt, and only then did I turn over the cards.

Overall, the show was a bit hokey (the narration was campy as a Batman episode; I half expected a Zow! Pow! Bang! before each commercial break) but doing a story on card collecting for a lay audience isn't an easy sell, so you have to dress it up some. One thought I had watching it was just how eccentric collectors are. The time and money and energy we put into this thing of ours must seem so weird to outsiders.