Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles
 

I know...beating a dead horse these past few days. But I think it’s good we talk amongst our community about these definitions. But can we do it constructively?

The way I see it our hobby is in a vulnerable spot, growing pains of sorts, in a phase where these restored cards are going undetected by TPG’s and being sold to the community.

I’m a longtime comic book collector as well. I see similar parallels happening here that something the comic book industry went through years ago. Now with CGC recognizing conservation and restoration it’s openly discussed with clear definitions.

If TPG’s like SGC and PSA someday decide to do what CGC did then we’ll all look back at this time as a game changer in regards to this subject.

What’s happening here is that there are now attempts to “evolve” the sports card hobby to similar collectible genres. Could this mean conservation and restoration is legitimately recognized by the TPG. Grading such cards under a different label?

I remembered seeing this video and think it would be helpful to those who want to actually invest some time into the subject of conservation and restoration in collectibles.
Guests appear to be from CGC and much more knowledgeable on the subject than anyone who has publicly spoken about this on behalf of the sports card hobby.
It’s a long interview but touched on very specific points.

For those who have been most vocal about this topic I’ll tap you on the shoulder and ask that you watch this interview.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

I know the ethical question these days is about knowingly selling altered cards. But what happens if SGC or PSA follows every other collectibles industry who has clearly defined restoration? Grades under a “restored” flip..Will that satisfy the collectors here and put the subject to rest?

While I am sure the video is interesting and I will get to it later I don’t have to watch it to agree with what you said here. I would be satisfied if the grading companies were to evolve, recognize and label cards as for what they are.

I would presume an item designated Restored will always sell for considerably less than one deemed original, so there would be the same incentive to alter cards as before, no? Don't we already have something close anyhow with AUTH?

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing? No skilled card doctor is going to say oh please designate my card restored so it can be worth 25-50 percent.

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

I don't follow your logic at all. They sell for less only if they're caught. Your stated premise is that the problem we have now is TPGs aren't detecting alteration. So why wouldn't that continue if the result of getting them past TPGs is that they're worth more?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. Paid damage control maybe, I have no idea. Anybody else have a hobby that has nothing to do with baseball cards that we can use their standards to make criminal activity in our hobby seem OK?

Brent isn't trying to mature the hobby he is trying to cover his ass IMHO.

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What’s undetectable by TPG’s slide by as unaltered. That’s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG’s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of “tolerances” when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

Let me understand this. Suppose I am a highly skilled card doctor making gobs of money getting many of my hatchet jobs past TPGs. Now, a market develops for restored cards (there sort of is one already, the AUTH, but never mind that). Restored cards sell for 50-75 percent less. I am going to stop being a card doctor and become a card restorer? Why?

Again, it's late, maybe I am missing it.

Right. Any system at all only works if the TPGs can tell the difference.

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I wish they would do that. But the reality is that they are performing suboptimally which means people take it into their own hands, particularly with so much accessible information, with all that entails.

Watch the video if you can spare the time. It’ll make you appreciate the openness of CGC on this subject and what they are doing about it. It certainly makes it less taboo. To those who think the comic hobby is irrelevant to cards are turning a blind eye. It’s all relevant because it’s all driven by the almighty dollar.

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

Hopefully the TPGs can find some way to step up their game, and hopefully law enforcement can make examples of a few people that will at least incrementally deter bad conduct.

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

Ya...6 minutes was plenty! The problem with this video and comparing the baseball card hobby to comics becomes clear in the first five minutes. They stated very early on that the comic book hobby was not mature enough such that subtle differences in grades affected value...When this guy started restoring comic books and merged his company with the grading company. So restoration was being done very early on in the continuum of grading within the comic book Hobby.

This scenario is quite the opposite of what is going on in the baseball card hobby these days.

Another apples to oranges bullshit analogy to justify devious behavior on the part of your friends...in my humble opinion.

I feel it's very NECESSARY bad publicity.

My problem in general with your scenario of evolution is that it's evolving only after people got caught gaming the system. In other words it's not a "natural" evolution of standards but rather backing and filling to account for deeds already accomplished. You can't do something and then when called out claim you were just trying to evolve the hobby. Forget the hubris for a minute. If you honestly thought that you were the one to lead the hobby to a new paradigm you'd announce it BEFORE you ever started profiting from it.

As I understand it, originality has always been crucial for baseball cards because with so many examples of most cards in existence, condition is the real differentiator. And that would not work if improving condition was permissible. Now sure they may be a niche market for people who just want a great looking card regardless of originality, but I don't think that's going to go mainstream.

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea of a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG or card doctor for that matter.

I think you had two things happening more or less at the same time, card doctoring was rampant so there was a market for what people believed was good third party authentication, and more and more business was done not in person. It's the internet that ultimately made TPGs I think even if PSA started a little before.

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people for bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria when they don't.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler. People want it both ways. They want crime lab like scrutiny at minimal cost and quickly.

Are they bitching now? Seems like they are. About both. At least if they changed their turnaround times and actually got it right, there would be less concern about one of the issues.

I think they would have a riot if they formally changed their turnaround times. People these days are incredibly impatient, they bitch if an AH hasn't sent their cards within two days.

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG’s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

That's a 10K - 25K card. That isn't where we're seeing the issues for the most part, is it?
Besides these guys doubtless try to sneak stuff through at lower tiers.

I don’t want this link reference to get lost in the shuffle.

It’s worth watching and noting when we hold TPG’s to the highest standards.
CGC absolutely got it right by taking a stance on this topic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5j0mQYpy8

So its better to just ignore the turnaround times that they promised to meet? PSA is admittedly months behind. You don't think people are upset about that? Maybe you and i are seeing different posts, but that certainly isn't my take. And, at the least, increasing the stated turnaround times would have the virtue of being somewhat honest.

Yes, It absolutely is the target audience if I’m reading what’s been outed.

I think if it takes 100 days to get cards back, people are going to be pissed even if PSA told them in advance it would take 100 days. They would be equally pissed at the change in stated time as at the failure to meet a shorter stated time. IMO.

We aren't reading the same threads then. Most of what I'm seeing is in a much lower range.

That's a dodge. If you sign up for 100 days, you can hope it comes earlier and be disappointed if it doesn't, but you have no real reason to be pissed. If you sign up for 30 days and it takes 100, yes, i think its fair to be pissed. That's not even close to the representation which was made.

I think people care how long it takes, not if someone made a false representation. If PSA tomorrow doubled its stated turnaround times, I think people would go nuts. Just an opinion.

And they care how long it takes now. And part of the angst is that the length of time it is taking is substantially longer than people signed up for. That's what I am seeing and that is my opinion.

34:15 of the video CGC grader claims high dollar comics go through as many as 5 to 6 even 7 vintage graders under the review process. That indeed is getting your moneys worth.

Look. Brent wants it both ways: prettier restored cards to give stickers to, and ever increasing card values. You don't get both of those without fraud, because disclosing the alterations leads to lower prices.
We already have AUTH-ALTERED flips to meet your requirements. Having more of them just means the fraudsters will buy more trimmed/restored cards to crack out, rough up, and resubmit as original.
It is up to the grading companies to catch these alterations. But PWCC should drop its defense of their tenets and eliminate them. Only after they've been ratified by the grading companies do they mean anything; but the TPGs would have to admit the King has no clothes first.

Perhaps a good place to start is to stop referring to slabbed cards as "graded" as cards, but instead as "examined" cards (or some other word that gives the same meaning). The point of slabbing should be to convey objective information. In contrast, a numerical grade conveys a subjective conclusion. Who's to say centering should take preference over registration? Or a sharp corner should matter more than photo contrast? Or that a stain on the verso of a blank-backed card should be given comparable weight to a stain on the front of the card? One person's 8 could be another person's 5. Collecting should be about personal enjoyment, which is a subjective concept. To complement this concept the information the flip conveys should be simply to state objective information about what if anything was done to the card, and from that point on leave it to the collector to decide whether to purchase the card and what to pay.

+1.

I remember the first time I saw a number grade for an autograph — it was on a Ty Cobb signed check in a PSA/DNA holder at the White Plains Show maybe 10 years ago. It had an outrageous price tag because it was a PSA 10. To this day, I have never paid for a TPG to “grade the autograph” because all I care about is authentication. I can make my own decisions about whether a signature is beautiful, crisp, and clean, but I like an independent opinion on authenticity.

I also agree with this...OBJECTIVE INFO should be conveyed by an opinion on a card. The whole grading mentality and the registry have helped create the problems we have today.

Above all DISCLOSURE of whats been done to a card is PARAMOUNT.

Also, has SGC been caught up in any of this? Back when I was routinely having cards graded by PSA and SGC - 10+ years ago - it was pretty obvious that PSA often missed trimming that SGC would catch. I know it’s a different group of graders now, as most of that team has either joined REA or PSA, but perhaps their system catches these what-now-seem-to-be-obvious trim jobs?

Or is it that the doctors target the registry community? As long as people still care so much about the difference between a 9.5 and a 10, you’ll just be inviting all sorts of funny business that pisses off somebody’s notion of grading ethics.

I don't think people submit to SGC the high end modern cards where a lot of this is being outed. And I suspect that most card doctors want to get their cards into PSA slabs because for better or worse they sell for more.

A couple of thoughts on this:

1) To me this would embolden many more to trim cards. If there was a Trimmed 8 that sold for 50% of a regular 8 - then the card doctors can be more bold. The risk of trimming a 5 and it possibly being detected and going to an altered holder is a deterrent. It is possible to lose money if the TPG detects the alteration. Now it could be break even if detected and a huge gain if not detected.

2) Comic book grading has never made sense to me. While not a collector - what if my favorite art from the book were on page 5, 9 and 11 of a comic book. I am paying all this money and never even seeing those pages on my book. Are these books scanned and retained somewhere page by page so you can actually see what you are buying? Makes sense that they need to take more time and get it right because unlike with cards you cannot see the majority of it with your own eyes.

To me the TPGs need to find a way to examine the card edges better and finding ways to detect trimming. If that takes hiring more people and giving them more time it is their duty to do so. If some people turn these cards in and they actually honor their guarantee then hopefully they can use those cards to find a way to find and train on what they missed. Unfortunately I do not see this as what will happen.

My prediction is it goes the way of the comic book. Way easier to error on the side of caution when you grade the trimmed card. This way min size cards will get into trimmed holders - they tighten standards on size - change color labels so key cards have to be graded again into the new conserved and “original” holder. Collectors over time have to bite the bullet and pay thousands of dollars to get key cards into “original” holders with cards in the current red holder selling at a discount in the marketplace.

That's an interesting point about comic book grading that I had not thought about. If it's sealed, you can't read it. Seems to defeat the whole point of a comic book, no?

Opaque slabs for trading cards would be the equivalent in our hobby and would allow Registry collectors to focus more clearly on the flip.;)

Therefore if you can't see it, the whole point of a trading card is defeated, no?

This^

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

What modern stuff do you see having problems?

Here is how another hobby handles an alteration.

This was I think 3 months getting a certificate, at $35. I didn't know the cancel was fake, but the PF did. I'm still very happy with it, as it's a new discovery. (Not my discovery, but I believe this was the first copy certified) I don't know if they needed it, but I sent a copy of the article identifying this as a foreign entry along with it.

The fake cancel may have been added for a couple reasons. The stamp may have had damaged gum, or been stuck down so the gum was removed. A nice used copy probably sells faster than an unused copy that's got a problem like no gum. (decent price reduction). It's also possible that there's a very light cancel in a common color, and the blue fake was added to increase the value( decent addition to catalog value for a blue cancel)

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=25804

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

Yeah, Brent Mastro, would love to continue to mature his relationship Edward Scissorhands. He is full of S, I mean hot air. I have seen him blabber mouthing, but has not done 1 THING he said he would as of yet. He is an idiot, a picked scab, IMHO until he makes a move and it is made public.

and for guys like Brent Mastro to STOP what he is doing by cozying up to known scumbag losers, like his pal and good customer, Edward Scissorhands

Maybe one of the card doctors' great grandkids will be able to turn it back into a 10.

I believe they are already being "conserved" just by putting them in those dumb plastic holders, without the haircuts.

Collectors Edge, now there's a company I forgot about already, now i remember a little from the early 90s.

I didn't say it was rare modern stuff...…..:D

I remember them and Wild Card football from that timeframe.

As the cardstock decays, it gives off acid, which, inside a holder stays in the cadstock and promotes more decay/acid.

I've believed for years that the holders used for grading will actually damage some cards over a lengthy period of time. I asked SGC how sealed theirs were, and the answer was that they pretty much aren't. Will there be enough air transfer to vent the acidic air? Maybe. I've wanted to slab a card along with a strip of litmus paper, but can't imagine any of the companies allowing that.

I collected both pretty avidly.

Now that you mention it, I should check and see if the browning ones are the wild card.... darn, forget the name. The thick embossed foilish rookie set that finally ended them because it sort of wasn't licensed.

Was that Action Packed maybe?

Is this Brent? :) I realize this is the internet, so I didn't hear you say it, but "can we do it constructively" probably isn't the best phrasing. Just saying...

This discussion has been going on for decades now? It isn't "new", it's just become more common in the recent weeks, and more public.

Again, not new. These things have been going on for decades as well. Restored/altered cards were getting through the TPGs from the very beginning. The hobby isn't more vulnerable than any other time, again it's just become more public thanks to the internet and hobbyists pointing out all the parties involved and how they are/may be linked to each other.

Also, not new as it already exists (at least at PSA). There is a "Restored" label to go on flips.

Who in the art world is official standard setter of "restoration"? :)

I don't collect comics, but I am at least generally aware of CGC and their grading. I'm also pretty sure that they disclose a fair bit more any restoration/alteration work they see on the comics, no? It's frequently a list of those things, whereas in cards it's just the one word on the flip.

I'm also going to go on record as saying that cards and comics are NOT similar collectibles. Comics are multiple pages attached together in some manner, much thinner stock normally than cards, it's generally a more "elaborate" collectible than a single card that's a few inches each direction, and damage to inside pages affects the grade, not just the cover and the back.

One last item. This is off the CGC site, and it's identified as a "restoration" technique that would get called out on a slab. Maybe I misunderstood the video discussion, but certainly didn't sound to me like "cleaning" was something that was likely to get called out on a slab unless it "smelled" of something, in which case it became alteration.

Again, I don't think cards and comics are particularly similar, just simply pointing out that even with these "mature" markets and their definitions the card "leaders" aren't even being consistent with those. Who should we believe then?


CLEANED (lightened). An aqueous process to lighten the paper color or remove soluble acids, often using chemical oxidation, solvents, or water. This process is sometimes called cleaned and pressed or C&P. Common chemicals used to lighten paper include benzene, acetone, xylene, sodium hypochlorite, hydrogen peroxide, chloramine-T, chlorine dioxide, sodium borohydrate, etc.

David sorry I'm going to make an example of your response.
Nothing in what you say is constructive or added value to this topic.
To throw your hands up and say it's been going on for decades and that TPG's cannot follow similar standards as other industries is just wrong.

You say it's been known for years, its been talked about for decades, its part of the hobby since the beginning, there are already "restored" flips available. So does the hobby keep going in the direction that it is?

The stubborn mentality that fears change will always fall behind.

As I said before similar parallels to the comic industry years ago about this subject. Now that CGC recognizes conservation/restoration fully and has their own "tenets" there is nothing taboo about the subject.

If CGC can do this then it would appear to be a less intrusive process for PSA or SGC to follow in analyzing a simple card that is not as "elaborate" as a comic book right?

The point of my thread is to call out what's been done by similar hobby grading methodologies where things like pressing, cleaning, color touch, identifying trim etc. are part of conservation or restoration.

Again if CGC can do it with books there is absolutely no reason PSA or SGC could not do it on a card.

Whether they could or not, why should they? You haven't made that case at all IMO. Nor have you responded to the point that as long as there is a price differential there is a huge motive to alter to deceive.

PS I don't WANT a restored card. I am guessing the overwhelming majority of people here do not WANT restored cards. You're way off base, as evidenced by the reception you're getting so far.

No, had to google them

Wild card superchromix rookies.

That may be the set having problems, I'll have to check. If it's not them, then it's a hunt through loads of boxes, a hunt I'm not enthusiastic about.

Real, useful conservation of trading cards, especially old ones, would involve them being deacidified by putting them in a solution. That's actually something good that could be done conservation-wise with fragile cards and photos, and could be something held up as reasonable standard practice. Conservation in the art world is done to preserve/protect the item for posterity.

I've never stated that restoration and conservation are bad. And grading card companies labelling this work (if they can identify it) seems perfectly reasonable philosophy. It should be done right now if it could. If that's what Goudey is talking about, I agree. But the key is any work on the card has to be disclosed.

"Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less."

I work in philosophy (logic), have a published peer-reviewed university philosophy textbook and am a lifetime member of the international philosophy society at Oxford, and I just have to note for the logic-record that that quoted line makes absolutely no sense. It makes anti-sense.

Martin, I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company. I have never in my life seen someone on a message board attempting to defend a business/individual with the vigor and determination that you are for PWCC. Just tell us the truth, what is your deal?

I have largely stayed out of this discussion as it all makes me sick. S*** has been going on in this hobby for decades and it all sucks. The spin that Brent is attempting right now is utterly ridiculous... if he didn’t know what was going on to some degree or another he was voluntarily living in ignorance. That being said PSA/BGS also are at fault for their inability to detect some of the most obviously trimmed vintage cards I have ever seen.

The hobby has determined (long before Brent/Betsy/Martin ever even thought about it) what is and isn’t okay. Yes there is some gray area as to what the hard line in the sand is but there are many things that are now and have always been not okay (and everyone mentioned in this and the other threads know what those are despite the spin they are trying to put forth). Everyone involved bears responsibility for the current situation despite what Martin would have us believe...

-PSA/BGS sucks at detecting the altered cards that have been submitted. They bear responsibility for that fact.
-PWCC (including all involved in that entity) suck at detecting the obvious shenanigans going on with their auctions (that or they are willfully involved, but I will give them the benefit of the doubt here). They bear responsibility for this, what they have and are doing IS NOT ENOUGH! Their attempts to reshape the narrative, redefine hobby standards, claim ignorance are comical to watch.

Simple response to your thoughts Peter. Stagnation. Enjoy your message board to continue venting while nothing changes and all we hear about are controversial topics.

At some point TPG's need to recognize restored cards as did CGC. This includes publishing guidelines for tolerances of conservation vs restoration. This is exactly what PWCC is trying to convey in their tenets. Else it will always be a taboo topic with hidden motives. I'll also refer back to my comment about TPG's needing to give more effort in distinguishing the two. Thus the idea of creating a "purple" label of their own like CGC does.

Most comic book collectors in the silver age and modern book era do not want "restored" purple label books. Most golden age collectors have no choice if they want to own a key book. But at least CGC openly recognizes the differences.

I provided ideas with examples from other TPG's from the comic industry.
I already have a profession so it is not my job to make the change. But I can certainly be an advocate for it.

I'm open ears to constructive ideas. Complaining and stagnation is not my idea of constructive.

He does bring up some tough questions though.

While I don't "want" a restored card, I have a very wide range of what I think is "acceptable" as far as condition goes. Much of that to me is related to the price.*
I have cards that I know are altered, as well as some pretty nice originals, and some real beaters.
I think if someone had for instance a green Cobb that had been a total wreck but had borders added and some scuffs etc fixed, and it was cheap enough, I might be interested. It would have to be way less than even an original beater.

I can also see someone wanting a restored card to display with another item, like while framing a jersey or autograph.

Realistically, I think we have to acknowledge that alterations, either fraudulent or well meant will always happen. People colored the edges of 71T when commons were going for a few cents each. (Badly, but still... )

If the grading companies got much better at catching it, and conveyed the alteration in any degree of detail, I think that's a positive step.

Our hobby does need to do some growing up. No other major hobby I can think of (Maybe comics? ) gets by without some national organization that supposedly has some sway over dealers and ethics and what is/is not acceptable. If we don't have one, dealers who think they're big enough will define that themselves.

*In 1978 I found half of a card I needed in the street on my way home. I kept it in my collection for about 2 years before I happened across a complete one. At the time I could have replaced it for 5 cents.

PWCC doesn't even understand what conservation is. They misuse the word throughout.

Call me a skeptic, but I'm not seeing anything necessary or positive in it. What we need, as I've said, is for TPGs to improve and for card doctors and their enablers to be prosecuted.

I have no issue with grading companies getting better. That would be huge. And yes, some self-regulation would be great too. I do have an issue with changing the rules of the game to somehow legitimize a world of fraud. Particularly considering the source, and I don't mean Martin.

DRCY,
I do appreciate your comments so far. Very useful examples that you provided.
As for the comment about having no incentive for card doctors. If we keep it the way it is today the incentive to get a altered card past the TPG is profitable. If the TPG moves to a CGC model and can recognize restorations/conservations and place them in a separate "restored" label then the profit is marginal.

Bottom line though. TPG's in our card hobby need to step up their services.
Change is needed regardless.

You're totally wrong IMO. As long as there is a large price differential between original and restored there is a huge incentive to try to deceive, to get the original not the restored designation. Why can't you see this, everyone else can. You keep asserting it in mantra like fashion and just ignore the logic on the other side.

Rhett,

I have no association with PWCC. I have been a customer of theirs since the "pre war card collector" days. Yes I have had thoughts about reaching out to them as an advocate for change. I am from the same area as their offices but that's just coincidence.

I'm here to challenge the nay sayers. Because there needs to be a shake up. Complaining on a message board and doing nothing about it is pointless.

Explain to me please why, if there is a large price gap between original and restored, there would not continue to be a huge incentive to alter cards to try to get the original designation as opposed to the restored one. I'm listening.

I think he sees it, and always saw it.

Rhett: "I just am having a hard time believing that you don’t work for PWCC or are in some way associated with the company or at the minimum are close friends with one of the principal people within the company."

That would be a logical guess.

Or, as the old guy on Seinfeld said, "I may die tomorrow, but I wasn't born yesterday."

I'll take him at his word that he's not affiliated, but he isn't, at least so far, making much sense on his no incentive point, to me anyhow.