Auction House thievery Lelands style
 

So this past week Lelands had an auction closing and I won one card for a total of $60K. After receiving the invoice which included $623.59 for shipping and insurance, I contacted them to question it since I has simultaneously received invoices from Heritage and REA with higher value for much less shipping costs.

A woman named Jillian Clinedinst eventually responded to tell me that after looking at the invoice "it looks like they gave (me) a break. $606.59 alone is just for insurance given the total of your invoice (1% of the total is insurance) so they really only charged (me) $17 to ship." She proceeded to tell me "I can have the insurance removed if it is a problem. I just need you to respond saying that provided the material is well packed, Lelands will not be held responsible for any damages or losses during shipping."

I then asked her if her company was purchasing specific insurance with Fedex for this particular package or just using their general liability policy. No response. I asked again and she eventually went through all of the math with Fedex showing their insurance rates and how they got to $623.59 shipping. She specifically then said "we purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex based on the value of the shipment." And that "We purchase insurance for each individual package we ship through Fedex." She also reminded me that if I sent an email like she had suggested previously, that all of the shipping charges would be removed but they would take no responsibility.

Next I got another email from her. Because I was such a "good client with (them) she had reached out to her President on my behalf. He just got back to her and approved a break on my insurance loweing it to $200. He said in the event of anything happening we will absorb the remaining insurance."

I paid the bill and the card came today. I call Fedex and no insurance was ever bought for the package. I email Jillian and she doesn't answer. I email again and now receive a call from her "because she's so busy with invoices it's easier this way." She tells me they didn't buy insurance on my package because I didn't want to pay the full amount.

It's pretty clear to me this company is just stealing money from everyone under the auspices of paying for insurance on each package. In this case it was only $600+ but extrapolating it out over many auctions and many years it sure adds up. The bigger question for me is if they find the need to be stealing money from us this way when it is so obvious to see, what are they doing to us when we're bidding and in their T&C allowed to bid on any lots? Does someone perhaps have that answer?

PS - I just saw Lelands is an advertiser here so sorry Leon. But with all the shenanigans going on in this industry it doesn't seem right to let this pass as decent.

I would ask for the $200 to be refunded.:(

I’ve never heard of $600 for shipping unless your card is a PSA 9 or 10 1952 mantle and they are delivering it with an armored truck. Thanks for the head-ups.

I know nothing first hand
 

That said, I was advised by an old friend and store owner that people often "bid against themselves". As a result of what my friend shared, I chose not to bid in their auctions for years. Recently I have, but am always wary. Never thought to question the insurance - that's pretty slimy!

If they don't purchase any insurance at all, then they would have to self-insure the packages. There's probably a very good chance a Fed-ex package is going to be delivered so perhaps they feel they'll bite the bullet if they have to.

As long as they cover the loss, then I guess they're doing the right thing in that respect.

Is it ethical? It's probably not that it's unethical more than it is a perception issue. If they lose you as a bidder, then my guess is they'll have paid the price.

Why not ask to speak with Josh Evans, I'm sure he'd take your call.

Josh is awesome on the phone, I agree ❤️

I suppose you could have driven to New Jersey, picked up the card yourself, and saved a bunch of money on Shipping/Insurance. Or you could've flown to NJ to pick it up, probably at about a "break-even" rate.

Seriously, these exorbitant shipping/insurance charges are something I've always been suspicious of... not necessarily with Lelands per se, but across all auction houses (REA excluded). At least it sounds like your card arrived safely and undamaged, which is lots better than the alternative.

I recently purchased a baseball for $1,000 through an auction house & ended up paying 1,334.00 for the ball all in. I figured the premium & S&H, but when does it not make sense to sell at an auction house?

There are usually at least two sides to every story, but based solely on your side, it appears Leland’s flat out stole $200 from you; charging you for insurance they never procured. That’s no bueno. And, just stupid business. You buy a $60k card, likely pay immediately, and they do this? That’s what I call penny wise, pound foolish. I expect they lost you as a customer. Unfortunate all around.

Meanwhile, REA sent me a shipping confirmation the day after the auction ended, the cards came the next day, and If I paid shipping and/or insurance, it was peanuts. REA is a class act, they know how to do things, and they are pound wise.

REA is by far my favorite auction house. Brian is smart, not a pig and his is the only auction house which I don’t need to call to ask where my cards are. He takes a loss on shipping but he understands the value in keeping the customer happy. It shouldn’t be so difficult to not use shipping and insurance as a profit center but this is our hobby. In addition he doesn’t bid on his own lots and doesn’t have wildly misleading scans, both of which Heritage is guilty of and is unwilling to change.

Lelands Auction
 

Hi Steve- I do agree with you now although Lelands has always treated me fairly.

8.25% of 60k is about 5k, not 600. Sounds like they knew what they were doing. I would be interested to hear their side though.

Fed Ex does not insure collectibles except up to a small amount. They certainly do not cover a 60K card. Most auction houses either self-insure or have a third party policy.

I do not even think that Fedex will insure collectibles. I bet that most collectible companies have a private blanket policy to cover all of their shipments. I am not sure if this is in the the 1% price range or not.

My guess is that Leland’s charges the 1% to either cover the cost of their private insurance or else they are just self insuring and figure that they will take the risk for 1%.

Either way, expensive shipping charges should be disclosed up front so that a bidder can take them into consideration when bidding.

*I did not see Jeffrey’s post. Looks like he beat me to it.

First, it wasn’t tax. It was clearly shipping and insurance and I have many emails to attest to that. What it was is an outright money grab. I suspect they use their own insurance or self insure every package and then use FedEx rates to charge the clients. Whether it’s right, wrong, unethical or not is everyone’s decision to make. Where it becomes unquestionably unethical is when I ask them specifically if they are buying insurance from FedEx specifically for every package and they tell me they are. And then they don’t. That’s outright dishonest and thievery.

My assumption is they have stolen millions of dollars over the years playing this game and getting away with it. If someone complains they cut the fee so they make less. But still outright dishonesty.

So where does it end in this industry? PSA, PWCC, Moser, shilling at AH’s and now this along with all the other characters doing exactly what the others are doing but just haven’t gotten caught yet. It is pretty disheartening.

I welcome Lelands to come on and give their side of the story but they probably should read the emails first. They should do the right thing and donate all the money they stole on shipping from this auction to the charity of Hotchkiss’s choice. Or spend it on bigger ads on net54.

As an aside, I bought one much more expensive card from REA with a $20 shipping fee. I can complain all I want in the manner in which Brian closes his auctions but he is a prince of a guy and always seems to do the right thing. Fast delivery, packed great and always a pleasant transaction. In this ethical cesspool of a hobby that’s quite refreshing.

I promise you that the third party policy costs nowhere near 1% of the entire auction sale.

Lelands
 

I know that this cannot be the actual sales tax by the amount, i just thought it was a computer generated error mixing up their invoicing fields but i guess you are correct, probably self insured packages...maybe they will accomodate you to keep you happy. I dont think FEDEX insures any collectible even express boxed for anything over $1000 thats why my bro in law who sells diamonds uses registered mail.

That was my initial thought. So the answer doesn't make sense, nor does the rest of it.

From Jillian Clinedinst, the General Manager of Lelands.

Attachment 376482

Even if they had purchased 60k in insurance from Fed Ex they only cover collectibles up to $1,000 same with UPS. They won''t tell you that while purchasing the insurance though, just when you go to make the claim. It's in the fine print, but they take your money anyway.

My guess is an auction house that has been around as long as Lelands knows fully well the limitations of FedEx insurance on collectables.

From Fed Ex website.

For example, FedEx permits a maximum declared value up to $1,000 for the following items:
•Artwork
•Photos
•Glassware
•Jewelry
•Furs
•Precious metals
•Plasma screens
•Antiques
•Stocks, bonds, and cash equivalents
•Collectibles, such as coins or stamps
•Some musical instruments
•Models, such as dollhouses

In college I worked part time for a gem and mineral dealer (just over a decade ago) and the going rate of third party insurance for shipments was .75 per $100 through our contract so $600 on $60k doesn’t surprise me.

So many worthy charities!

It’s one thing that they charged so much. However, my issue is that they told Steven they were buying insurance, charged him for it, but never bought the insurance. I mean that’s just flat out not right. I would like to hear from Lelands though.

Maybe Jillian was just joshing you.

I read Jillian's email to say they purchase insurance for every package they ship with FedEx, not that they purchase the insurance from FedEx. Could be purchasing the insurance from anyone including themselves. Or am I twisting it?

Curious why this thread was moved??

Me too. There’s Crazy Uncle threads and tons of PWCC so why not this? An AH selling cards is blatantly stealing from their customers. Why is this not relevant? What else are these people doing if they’re looking to steal shipping money?

me three

Presented without comment.

This may actually be the class action suit you were looking for. Every customer defrauded the same way.

Thanks for answering the 3 posts above yours so eloquently.:)

Somebody wake up Jake

Does Peter do class action? It’s time someone does something to stop this and I’m just the guy to bankroll it. I haven’t heard another word from Lelands by the way and no response here. This is going to be fun to see how long they have been getting away with this.

I am a class act for sure.

Guys, I think everyone needs to take a deep breath. Leon has often said that advertisers get no special treatment here, and he has been true to his word. Just recently Crazy Uncle Auctions was roasted repeatedly on the main board. Did that thread get moved to a less visible area of Net54? No. If advertisers are protected, then that thread would have been moved. I'm sure there's a good reason this thread was moved. If Leon wants to explain why, fine. If not, that's fine too. It's his board and he provides this service for all of us to gather and talk cards with friends. Maybe we should focus on that.

Haha! So what do you think about discussing this Peter? Would Lelands insurance company pay out claims? I would imagine Lelands pockets are not very deep to absorb the millions of dollars potentially taken. Or is forcing them into bankruptcy all that can happen?

Jack, could you possibly give me a reason then because I can’t think of one?

I have no idea what the limits of their liability insurance coverage are. You would also need to find other examples of bidders who were overcharged relative to their actual shipment and insurance costs.

That would be any expensive lot I’m guessing.

Your thread is complete BS. Leon has called members morons and idiots, threatened banning, and openly admitted advertisers get special treatment. Actually he has even done this all in one thread before when PWCC was being called out.

Saying all that, who cares, it is his forum and he can do whatever he wants and if you don't like it don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Perhaps. But I doubt any plaintiff class action lawyer is going to sign up for a contingency fee case without seeing more than one example.

Pretty sure there won’t be any difficulty finding lawyers on this one.

I think its shitty this was moved, but its not my site.

Steven, speaking of bankrolling - I am all in for helping to Fund some type of watchdog organization that does the work of BODA (if not BODA) and looks for injustices in the hobby such as what this thread addresses

rico!!

Goated!

what planet do you live on? advertisers have always received protection here. i don’t blame leon for it because he has to make a living. but please don’t tell us it doesn’t happen.

Should advertisers be protected who are blatantly ripping off customers?

My name is Turner Engle
 

Moved from the main page to the Watercooler section? Seriously?

:confused::confused::confused:

+1

I've seen Leon weigh in on the side of sponsors before certainly, but I don't think I've seen him relegate threads critical of a sponsor to the watercooler before. I am surprised, frankly. I would think Leland's should respond, wherever the thread resides. It's not a good look to be called out and not explain.

I get bashing the company if you want to but why drag the girl in this? I would assume she is doing her job.

She was "dragged" into this? Or was the email that she sent on behalf of the company relevant to the discussion?

And congrats on your very first post, just minutes after you joined Net 54. Amazing that you found this thread first.

Great sleuthing!! Classic. You gotta watch those “Penguin Fans”

I know the very first thing I do when joining a vintage baseball card board is to hit the never-seen, non-vintage baseball card threads.

Just standing 'round the water cooler defending the meek

Some Penguin fan, even that is wrong about the poster, Lemieux22 ????, c'mon....had you gone Lemieux66 then maybe I'd give ya some credibility but 22?.

Sincerely,

Gretzky41

(The Late One)

Claude not Mario.

Claude Leland, not Josh?

Again, nice sleuthing. And where is Leland's located? (that is a rhetorical question).

Bottom line, Lelands charged Steven $200 for insurance that it never procured. I do not believe that is legal; it certainly is not ethical. If they did that to Steven, odds are it was done to others in the auction. And, if it was done in this auction, there is a chance (maybe a likelihood) it was done in prior auctions.

At the very least, I hope other AHs take note of this event and take steps to ensure that they are not overcharging or incorrectly charging winners. There is enough BS in the industry already.

Ryan Hotchkiss

PS -- I dont think I have ever won anything from Lelands (but I have certainly bid in their auctions), and they tend to have very quality stuff. I sincerely hope they fix this and publicly explain the confusion because i do not want to cross another AH off my "will not bid list".

The only explanation I can come up with is that they are charging to self-insure. Basically they are taking the insurance payment and eating the cost if there is a claim. If any claim is paid without hassle I don't have an issue with it, but being upfront about it would probably be a better plan.

For $623 I'd fly my ass there and pick it up myself.

Leland's
 

If Steve spent $60k, that would mean that his item was around $50k, and he paid a 20% BP of around $10k. So, Lelands made $10k on the BP, then tried to gouge him for another $600?

Real classy.

I bought the Ruth D350-3 Standard Biscuit Ruth.

I spoke with three of the big auction houses on Friday and they all gave their support. Each gave me additional information as to the type of guy the owner Josh Evans is and none were surprised and provided me with more stories. I have spoken with two class action attorneys and two more on Monday and then will decide who to engage. The two I spoke with each said if the allegations are true it is outright fraud and they will be liable to everyone they did this to. In additional multiple other Leland clients who suspect they have the same issues have come forward to be apart of this.

I am going to give Lelands until the end of day Monday to clarify anything but from their lack of response it appears they are hoping by banishing this thread to the water cooler section the whole thing will just go away. It won’t. Lelands, here’s your chance to tell your side of the story before this escalates. Looking forward to your version so I can give you an apology.

Just checked my June 2019 Lelands invoice:

Two cards, total cost of cards plus BP: $48,140.40. Shipping and insurance: $718.16.

So Leland's charged me 1.5% of the total for shipping and insurance.

A Feeling....
 

..I have a feeling that an awful lot of popcorn is going to be consumed between now and 5;01 p.m. on Monday....

..

Is this a serious thread and are these 2 posts for real?:confused:

You have no problem paying 20% for the privilege of buying something. Then have the balls to complain about a 1%-1 1/2% shipping and insurance charge.

Thanks for the laugh at 1%er 1st world problems, have a great day gentlemen.

Ben, it’s not the amount that matters. What matters is that they are charging for something they are not giving/the buyer is not receiving. That is theft, or fraud, and/or flat out wrong, regardless of whether it’s $10 or $600 or 20% or 1%. And, the amount is not disclosed! If they said in their rules that they charge 1.5% for shipping, handling, insurance, etc. than it’s abusive but at least it’s disclosed and the buyer knows what they are getting.

PWCC charges extremely silly high rates for shipping, but at least it’s disclosed. Is it right to overcharge? No. But it’s at least better to disclose you are doing it.

I understand it’s hard to sympathize with someone who buys $60k cards. But that does not justify an auction house charging a buyer $200 for something they never procured. Wrong is wrong.

Ben, on Thanksgiving while you were stuffing yourself with turkey and watching football, I was sitting inside a federal prison, inside a locked room, seeing clients. For hours. I’m unaware how that makes me immune from being defrauded. Perhaps Lelands can use that as a legal defense?

comparing a buyer’s premium with an inflated shipping charge is entirely missing the point. bp is stated up front and most people capable of doing fourth grade math factor that in to their bidding. it’s not a penalty. inflated shipping charges are, and in many states they also are illegal. it’s a simple rule not to use shipping as a profit center.

Insurance
 

Once Leland's provides the insurance receipts from Fed-Ex for each buyer that requests it; this should be a moot thread.

If they don't and buyers find out they actually had a third party blanket policy that wasn't disclosed and also considerably marked up...I think there is going to be a problem.

The first response I could imagine is Leland's claiming "this doesn't matter; there is an insurance policy for every item". On the surface that sounds like a reasonable response, however, if 1) a buyer was promised a fed-ex policy; they should get it and 2) would a buyer still purchase a $60,000 card not knowing if the insurance company is reputable and/or if Leland's could/would cover the deficiency if the company didn't pay on a claim?

Disclosure is a good thing....

Jeffery I in no way am saying you don't deserve everything you have. I am looking at it more as a percentage thing. For you shipping and insurance is 1 1/2%, for lazy poor people like myself who only spend a few hundred the percentage is easily 10-20X what you pay.

He also could have easily asked what shipping/insurance would be before he bid. I know it is a PITA but I done it recently on a lot because I knew the shipping/insurance percentage could be WAY more than I would pay, I was right and passed after seeing the price.

Steven was given 3 options, he chose the one he wanted, should be end of story IMHO.

This is an interesting thread and I am also very curious as to why it was moved to the water cooler forum.

In any case, I recently "won" items in 5 recent auctions. This thread has caused me to look at the invoices from each of them.

Love of the Game and Heritage each included a charge for "Shipping and Handling," REA and Lelands each included a charge for "Shipping and Insurance," and Clean Sweep Auctions included charges for "Insurance" and "Shipping and Handling."

The shipping fees represent the following percentages of the winning bid plus BP:

Love of the Game - 1.50% (I "won" 1 lot, a large (35"x28" piece)
Heritage - 2.11% (I "won" 1 lot, a slabbed item)
REA - 0.505% (I "won" 2 lots, an unfolded box and a complete box)
Lelands - 1.85% (I "won" 2 lots, a 10"x14" paper poster, and 10 small tags)
Clean Sweep Auctions - 1.85% (I "won" 3 lots, 2 pictures and a pin)

(Items are included to give an idea of what actual mailing costs might be.)

REA definitely added the least for shipping and insurance than the other four. Interestingly, I couldn't find any information on its website regarding shipping charges. However, the other sites do give information regarding their shipping charges.

Love of the Game - "The actual shipping costs are determined by the*weight*of the package and the method of shipping, and not by its value, with a small amount added to cover the cost of packaging materials. **WE DO NOT CHARGE YOU FOR INSURANCE.**We have a blanket policy that we have to buy, regardless of whether or not you win anything, so we do not think it's fair to make you pay for insurance."

Heritage - "Our fees, shipping, and handling charges include shipping, handling and private carrier insurance. Shipping varies according to the item type, quantity, and value (for insurance purposes). Certain packages may cost more to ship and insure and you may be contacted if there are additional costs after receipt of shipment. All charges are based on shipping within the continental United States, and shipments to other areas will likely incur a higher charge."

Lelands - "You are also responsible for all shipping and handling costs, which includes shipping, packing, labor, materials & insurance. Our shipping rates are industry competitive."

Clean Sweep Auctions - "*Estimated Shipping includes $5.00 minimum shipping charge. When you win more than one item, this fee is only charged once. Estimated Shipping does not include insurance, which is 1% of your total order. Estimated Shipping is discounted for Multiple Lots when lots are the same size. These estimates are for shipping east of the Mississippi. Additional charges apply for shipping to Western states and other countries.
"

Even though LotG says they do not charge for insurance, I seriously doubt it costs $180 to send a 35"x28" advertising piece, so I would bet they did add a 1% insurance charge despite their claim. Heritage, Lelands, and CSA all say upfront that they add insurance, although only CSA says upfront that it is 1%.

Steve, in the end, just be content knowing that Lelands' "shipping rates are industry competitive." :rolleyes:

Ben, while I understand your sentiment, I think it’s unfair. By this logic, Bill Gates would have no right to be upset if someone stole $200 from his wallet. No one deserves to get ripped off, regardless of their financial status. No one’s asking you to feel bad, but vilifying the OP seems misguided.

Agreed. It's not about what was charged, but that a charge occurred for something that was then not delivered on. This is basically what happens in "The Firm."
And count me among the chorus of people who finds it misguided this thread was moved to the Watercooler section.

My guess is it was moved to this section to keep the activity on it low and out of sight.

Obviously Ben the issue isn’t the money as fortunately I am in a position not to have to worry about that. What is the issue is that Lelands basically looked me in the eye and told me the $600+ they were charging for shipping and insurance was quoted directly from FedEx and that they were paying that to insure my package. They then came back as an accommodation for me being such a good customer (I’ve purchased only 2 items in my life from them) they would reduce the charge to $200 and they would incur the rest. The package then arrived and there was no FedEx insurance on it at all.

Besides being pissed that I believe I was blatantly lied to, the bigger question to me is what else is Lelands doing? Are they shill bidding as well? Is it so out of the question after $10,000 was not enough for them to make on an item that they also need to grab another $600? The lawyers tell me we will be able to examine those records as well so this could get very interesting.

No matter how rich or poor someone may be, no one wants to get cheated. Expect for perhaps you Ben. I think if you look at this more clearly and instead of counting my money you possibly could see it differently.

You and Steven can be named plaintiffs. I actually have a case where two brothers are named plaintiffs.

That will be difficult to produce given that Fed Ex has a 1K limit for collectibles.