Roy hallady r.i.p
 

Died in his own plane so sad .it was his passion.espn reporting now ,,

just saw this pop up on my screen. Another person my age dying way too young. RIP Doc!

Just went to youtube and re-watched his perfect game, in his memory. What horrible news!

I realize given how many famous people there are that it's going to be pretty frequent to hear that one of them has just died, but this one strikes me as particularly surprising, even independent of how young he was.

He was probably going to be in on the first ballot anyway. I wonder now if he'll be the first to get 100% of the vote.

RIP Roy...what a great pitcher you were...and that was some plane too!

Um, Halladay will not get 100% of the HOF vote. If Junior and Maddux didn't, then Halladay sure won't. He had some great seasons over the course of a decade, but with only 203 wins, I'm doubtful that he'll make it in on the first ballot.

It would be tacky of me to try to profit from his death, but how about I apologize to you if I'm wrong about his first ballot election, and you apologize to me when you're wrong?

P.S. He was better than Nolan Ryan.

Doc completed over 17% of the games he started. Given the times he pitched in, that's pretty amazing. Such a sad thing to hear.

Tom C

Horrible news-God rest his soul

Very sad news.Only 40 with a wife and 2 kids.RIP

Tragic news indeed !
A fabulous pitcher who accomplished about all a pitcher could during a HOF career and he did it honorably and fairly without a hint of scandal or PEDs. In retirement he was just a regular guy who lived a normal life.

Sure!

In terms of peak value, yes, he was better than Ryan. In terms of career value, no.

One of the best I ever saw. Loved to watch he and Ruiz work together. So sad.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Great pitcher, very sad to hear...

He's a first ballot HOFer in my book. A real throwback who wanted to stay on the mound and complete games when it just didn't happen anymore.

RIP

RIP Roy. He stopped to sign for me and my dad at Spring Training while he was on the Blue Jays and seemed like a really nice guy.

I think he's a no doubt HOFer. At the time he was only the 5th pitcher to win a Cy Young in both leagues and with the exception of Clemens the other 3 guys are Hall of Famers.

I saw his perfect game against the Marlins


There will be a lawsuit against the airplane Icon manufacturer....i thought those planes come with a complete parachute or something. We will get the details in litigation

Terrible news; from all accounts a very nice man as well as a great player.

OK, fess up: who got on eBay and bought a RC or signed card?

I did...

Yes, I am a ghoul...

You're fine. The people who are rushing to list them tonight though? Shady at best.

Ah, yeah. LOL :)

NOLAN RYAN
5,714 strikeouts (MLB record)
7 no-hitters (MLB record)- 17 K's in his best no-hit performance - (MLB record)- Photo attached
12 1-hitters (MLB record)
383 K's in a single season (MLB record)
19 K's 4x (Only player to ever strike out 18 or more 4 times)
300 K's 6 times (MLB record- tied w/ HOF Randy Johnson)
61 COMPLETE GAME SHUTOUTS!

Career Cy Young awards: Halladay 2, Nolan Ryan 0.

Not a reliable basis for comparison to be sure as even Pete Vukovich won more Cy Youngs than Nolan Ryan, but still wroth mentioning. Ryan was good for a very long time but never the best. Halladay was the best but for a shorter time.

I'm personally of the view that it makes no sense for the HOF to overvalue longevity over dominance. There are tons of guys in the 2,000 hit club who were way better at their peak than guys in the 3,000 hit club (and other clubs) but aren't in the Hall.

Yawn...
This is not a new argument, but Ryan was also the victim of playing for 2 teams that didn't score runs (Angels, Astros) for 18 years. :eek:
I know because I had to endure the indignity of being a season ticket holder with the Angels for 8 years during the 1970's and watch this play out on a daily basis...
Believe me, he dominated the opposing hitters. His teammates just didn't score runs to reward him with wins the majority of time.

BTW, Nolan was robbed of a Cy Young award in 1973 and 1977.
Take a look again. He just happened to not play for a major market team that wasn't followed as much as others...

Punch in the gut day. So sad.

I'm not sure how that is relevant to a Ryan-Halladay comparison though. Halladay spent most of his career playing for basement dwelling Blue Jays teams which had notoriously weak offenses and almost no following outside of Canada.

My overall point isn't to take anything away from Ryan, but more to question the logic of discounting Halladay's HOF credentials just because he didn't amass a bigger pile of stats (wins, etc) by adding a few mediocre seasons to the end of his career.

Doc’s 7 year peak is consistent with the average HOFer. I think he will get in on the strength of 2 Cy Young awards, a perfect game and one of only two postseason no hitters. The stat padding of a few more years doesn’t matter.

Sean,
Your point about playing in Toronto is well taken.
Actually, I wouldn't discount Doc Halladay's stats at all.
IMHO he is a HOF'er based on the fact that he had twice as many wins as losses, 2 Cy Young's, excellent post season performer, All Star, led the league in various pitching stats etc., etc.
Halliday was one of the pitchers I would always pay to watch pitch.
Very sad day for baseball fans everywhere indeed....

Halladay was a unique pitcher for his time and I have no doubt he will be enshrined. He led the league in complete games 5 years in a row and 7 times overall. Shutouts 3 years in a row and 4 times overall. He only played 16 years, so for nearly half of them he completed more games than anyone and for a quarter of them he shutout more games than anyone. Two Cy Youngs and two more second place finishes. What else does a guy have to do?

Doc Halladay
 

need more pics of Doc vs. arguments about Nolan Ryan:

https://photos.imageevent.com/derekg...IMG_0004_4.jpg

Derek, you'll need to get one of Doc's 1995 Signature Rookies for your pre-rookie collection. He has a regular card, signed card and signed 8" x 10" redemption photo. I picked up one of the signed 8" x 10" photos, pictures Doc in his Dunedin Blue Jays uniform.

Wow, the Doc passes on and people are going to bring up who's a better pitcher.... how does that happen?

If I were a HOF voter he'd have my vote, not because he is gone but because he was a great pitcher. Not really sure how that is relevant to this thread. He's gone, so very sad.

I would put andy pettite above him for HOF.....Roy got a few more awards..but the win total and playoff win total and success gives Andy the edge...

I also wish they had a Hall of Fame within the Hall of Fame....like first ballot guys etc..

I disagree. Playoff win total speaks to the quality of team around Andy. Doc played on some middling to worse Jays squads.

If Halladay gets in then Mussina, Pettitte, Gooden and Morris HAVE to be elected. I know everyone is sad by Halladay's passing, but let's not inflate his career based on sympathy alone. Of the 10 most similar players on Baseball Reference, exactly ONE (Vance) is in Cooperstown. Is Zack Grienke a Hall of Famer? That's his closest comp.

The peripherals are also very good for Pettite he was top 6 in Cy young 5 times....7 for Roy

plus yes we know its all about opportunity for the playoffs but you cant punish someone for doing well and the playoff performances for pettite are a big plus when compared to Roy.....we know pettite did well with his opportunities.but we dont know about roy.......it is what it is...

and wins matter.until you show me a 300 game winner that doesnt make the hall..yes andy doesnt have 300 wins..he has about 275 when you combine playoff and regular season but just saying wins matter.

I already analyzed my data a long time ago, so Halladay's passing doesn't change anything in the rankings, but of the guys who pitched in my lifetime here's where I have them:

1) Roger Clemens
2) Tom Seaver
3) Randy Johnson
4) Greg Maddux
5) Pedro Martinez
6) Bert Blyleven
7) Phil Niekro
8) Mike Mussina
9) Curt Schilling
10) Clayton Kershaw (if he retires today; otherwise he probably ends up about #3)
11) Steve Carlton
12) Fergie Jenkins
13) Gaylord Perry
14) Roy Halladay
15) Tom Glavine
16) Kevin Brown
17) Rick Reuschel
18) Jim Palmer
19) Nolan Ryan
20) Luis Tiant
21) Cole Hamels
22) Dave Stieb
23) Felix Hernandez
24) Andy Pettite

I don't believe that at all. I don't see how someone could say Mariano Rivera's performance in the playoffs isn't short of incredible. You have to perform in the moment and Andy was at the top of the mountain.

Andy Pettitte being better than Roy Halladay is the most laughable thing I've read in a while.

What is so special about Andy's playoff performance? That he had 10 x's the opportunity that Roy had in the Playoffs? His career winning %, and era are almost identical to his career numbers. So his playoff performance was par for the course but not HOF worthy.

Let's not forget another small little factoid about Andy Pettitte he's an admitted cheater. Roy's career ended at a relatively young age. If he got on a solid HGH regime and played 3-4 more years he could have had another 60 wins added to his resume.

In my opinion Roy is not a sure fire first ballot hall of famer. I think he is a borderline guy. He doesn't have accumulated stats that blow people away 300 wins, 3000 k's, etc. But he at times was the most dominant pitcher in baseball. Something that can't be said about Andy Pettitte or some of the other guys mentioned above.

Rick Reuschel better than Jim Palmer and Nolan Ryan?! I think I'll stick with Baseball Reference.

Funny, that's exactly where I got my data.

That was one of the most surprising things I found, but the algorithm works too well for me to throw it out in favor of my intuition. The important thing to remember is this analogy.

K:Nolan Ryan::BB: ___________

The answer is Nolan Ryan.

Always a tragedy to lose someone so young. A true throwback.

Makes sense. I get Walter Johnson.

Obvious HOFer
 

Halladay W/L +98 (Playing for slightly above average teams over his career) -

do you know how hard it is to do that? Seaver was at +106 with a hundred more wins and a hundred more losses. Palmer at +116 with mostly great teams.


Comparisons w recent HOFers:
Blyleven +37
Smoltz +58
Glavine +102
Pedro +119
Maddux +128
The Big Unit +137

Ryan +32 - to me that is all you need to know in order to rank Ryan.

I came here to praise Roy Halladay, not to bury Nolan Ryan, but I think when people just look at the strikeouts and no-hitters and can't figure out why anyone would say Ryan was not one of the greatest pitchers of all-time, they aren't considering that getting out is the modal/default outcome when a batter steps up to the plate, so issuing a walk is a very bad thing for a pitcher to do (case in point, the 2017 World Series) but striking a batter out is only a moderately good thing to do (if your goal is to win games).

We must not have been watching the same World Series. I never knew that Clayton Kershaw walking Marwin Gonzalez and Evan Gattis to get to a weaker hitter and the third out was a bad thing. I watch a lot of Baseball and I see pitchers pitch around good hitters or walk guys to set up a double play all the time. That is how I was taught to play the game, who knew we were all wrong?

I always thought the pitcher's job was to prevent runs. Isn't the winner of the game the one that scores the most runs and not the one that gets the most base runners. Nolan Ryan had a career ERA of 3.19 over 5386 innings. I don't see how anyone could rate another pitcher above him when they have a much higher ERA in a lot fewer innings.

It's pretty disappointing that this thread has gone from a "pay your respects" discussion, to a d*** measuring contest between Halladay/Ryan/other HoFers.

RIP Doc. Stand out ballplayer and human being.

Indeed, we know a lot more today about what we were wrong about back then. That was the whole point of Moneyball and the reason the people whose liveihood depends on it now use more sophisticated analyses of their baseball stats.

It's not worth while to respond to a straw man argument equating a lack of control with an intentional walk that happens to work out as planned.

If you just want to use ERA though, you're going to have to distract everyone from the fact that there have been hundreds of pitchers with better ERAs than Ryan. Feel free to throw out guys with fewer than 10 seasons or whatever, but he's nowhere near the top. I think we can agree that adjusted ERA+ provides a more suitable comparison for pitchers from different eras. In any case, we should, as it's more predictive of wins and losses. Halladay ranks #37. Ryan ranks #277.

I take it as a sign of respect for the game and its players that, when one of our favorite players passes away, we do what baseball fans do and engage in passionate discussions of why Wagner was better than Cobb or why Ruth was better than Mays or why Halladay was better than Ryan. If you show up at his funeral to tell his widow that Nolan Ryan was better that's disrespectful (in addition to being patently false). I don't think in a forum such as this at a time such as this we ought to limit ourselves to speaking in platitudes, though Halladay certainly deserves the platitudiest platitudes we can plate. And I'll be happy to drink to his memory with anyone who would care to join me.

Hmm...I was aware of the following: 1996 Best Dunedin, 1996 Dunedin Team Issue, and 1996 Dunedin Team Issue Update, but didn't know he had a card issued from 1995.

Thanks for the heads-up!

...duplicate...imagine a witty comment..

You can argue but its not laughable.

The cheating thing doesnt really matter anymore especially with pitchers. Just a few more years and we will see guys with a much worse 'cheating' connotation be in the hall.

At times being the most dominated pitcher isnt enough. How is 1 season.? is that enough..how about 2? Its not like he had 6 seasons. Many times the Cy young award is a toss up between a few guys. Petitte was top 6 in the Cy young 5 times and Roy 7 times.

Plus again, you cant penalize a guy from doing well in the post season. Not having chance still hurts you. Thats life. There are great players that never got a chance to do a lot of things, and we dont give them awards either.

If you have a guy that did do something versus a guy that never had a chance, guess what the guy that did do something gets the edge..

the last year petitte pitched he was an all star...he could of continued to pitch if he wanted too and he could of gotten to 300 wins who know...but he never got the opportunity so petitte doesnt get the credit for that. Just like Roy doesnt get any credit for the playoffs since he didnt have the opportunities..

Pettite has the most post season wins in baseball history....roy worst seasons (era over 10 in 13 starts sent down to minors) were much worse than Andys worse seasons...if you want to count the best of the best seasons you need to count the worst of the worse seasons..

Its far from laughable to compare the two

Now they've released footage which seems to show him doing very stupid things with his plane. Damm. Very sad. Clearly a great family man who adored his kids. Should have taken up a safer hobby.

What an idiot.

My dad, who was a hot air balloon pilot for about a decade and a half and got out of that hobby due to the dangers and him having a family (all similar to Roy; a wife and two kids), said the same thing.

Apparently Roy enjoyed flying real close to the water, as he felt like it was a war plane at that point (WWII water strafes or something...).

His baseball contract probably did not allow him to fly.

However we still dont know for sure anything. Im sure the airplane maker will use the info to blame pilot error and to avoid any blame to their aircraft.

The too fast to furious actor that died had a claim through his estate for product defect to the car that was crashed..

If the video is accurate and unaltered then first ballot. Now his wife and children have to suffer for his arrogance.

We will just have to agree to disagree because I pretty much disagree with everything you have posted. ERA+ is not a good measure to compare Halladay and Ryan. They really weren't from different eras. If you were comparing a modern pitcher to Cy Young that would be different eras. ERAs from Halladay's years in the league were a product of bad pitching in my opinion. Yet, Clayton Kershaw has been able to put up a 2.36 career ERA.

You only want to look a raw numbers and ignore the context of them. You want to ignore proven strategy that is still used today by throwing out "stawman" which doesn't apply. Ryan was the better pitcher. He was more productive (by preventing runs) over a longer period (innings pitched). That doesn't take away from Halladay's greatness. That won't keep Halladay from the HOF. It doesn't mean that there weren't better pitchers than Nolan Ryan, just not Roy Halladay.

Arrogance? Come on. How many times have you gone faster than you should in your car? People who enjoy their hobbies will push their hobbies to extremes. His hobby was flying a plane, other people drive fast cars, others skydive.

Before I had kids A LOT. After I had children I drive like a granny in the slow lane. My hobbies are baseball cards and record collecting....so nothing where gravity can have an affect :p I just feel so badly for his family.

I definitely feel for his family. It just seemed a little overkill to call a dead man arrogant for enjoying his hobby. I highly doubt he thought to himself, so what if I die doing this? I think it's more likely he thought, this is pretty fun.

Just for the record: I think Halladay was a great pitcher who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame and will probably get there eventually. But I'm skeptical that he'll make it on the first ballot, due to the prevalence of certain opinions that have been on display in this thread; he certainly won't get 100% of the vote. His low counting stats (just over 200 wins), his numerous mediocre seasons mixed in with his great ones, his sparse postseason experience relative to other similar pitchers (Petitte, etc.) -- whether you agree with them or not, these are all reasons people give for not thinking Halladay is a HOFer. I don't agree that those things should keep him out, but a not insignificant percentage of people do think that, and I'm sure that includes quite a few Hall of Fame voters.

I don't see where arrogance comes into it. Guy lived life to the hilt and here used some pretty terrible judgment. Everything I've read about him says he was a fantastic down to earth guy. Had the money to buy rich toys.

Athletes frequently think they are invincible. A number of years ago a goalie for the NJ Devils was killed speeding. Lost control of his car on a turn and killed. Forget if he was drunk. I've told the story to my boys and to countless others. If you think you have fast reflexes and can drive like a mad man . . . your reflexes and perception are nothing compared to what his were. His worth unworldly. If he lost control of a speeding car you can very very easily do the same.

Top 6 in the Cy Young voting. When did top 6 become a thing. That is laughable.

How about Cy wins 2-0
Top 3 which is much more standard than top 6 which is 5-1 Doc.

Andy was a solid pitcher that compiled a lot of wins over a very long career on some of the best teams and helped extend his career with the aid of PHDs.

My co-workers have also been extending their careers with PhDs. They're quite open about it.

Lol. Nice typo on my part. Andy Pettitte was a very smart guy I hear!

Not sure about a Devils goalie but there was the tragic car speeding accident in 1985 of Philadelphia Flyers Goalie Pelle Lindbergh. His Blood Alcohol level was .24
Edit to add that the accident was in New Jersey.

Thanks. Must be what I was remembering. Was in NJ not far from where I now live.

RIP. I don't really want to engage about who was the better pitcher, but Roy Halliday was both a stud and a stand up guy.

My prayers go out to his wife and his kids. This is just awful news. I was floored when I heard it.

And how many post season wins for Doc? Hes blown out of the water from that.

Also Doc's 2 worst seasons were far worse than anything Pettite did..so 2-0 there as well. As for top 6 or top 3 in cy young...3-6 is a lot of the same class. Baseball reference uses the top 6..and most people go by baseball reference as the standard.

We dont know how Roy would of did on Pettite's teams but Pettite took advantage of his opportunity. He was never sent down to the minors in his 3rd season or later due to ineffectiveness as well. Also its not like the win total is even close. Pettite blows Roy out of the water in that category and counting stats matter until you show me a 300 winner not make to the HOF.

Tim Lincecum won two Cy youngs. .wining a Cy young or two doesnt make you a HOF at all. The counting stats matter and pettite destroys Doc in most of them.

Its laughable you think it is laughable to compare the two.

Well, that's talk radio for you.

I wouldn't say "deserved" to die, but a complete idiot and moron, yes Halladay was that.

Of course maybe he was drunk, like Jose Fernandez, who knows.

I guess I am not quite sure of what I am seeing in the instagram video. I hear a guy saying, "WTF" multiple times. Was he flying upside down or doing a bunch of loops or something?

Perhaps the guy filming did not know that the plane was designed to land on the water. Halladay may have been practicing touch downs. You don't have to actually touch down each time. Perhaps he was being reckless, but it did not appear obvious in the video I saw. In either case, he definitely did not deserve to die.

Very sad.

Speaking of the Phillies and sad, yesterday on Howard Stern, there was a segment called, Memet Spends the Day with Lenny Dykstra. While it was funny, it was also sad.


As far as HOF, I think Halladay gets in but I never thought of him as a first ballot guy.

Actually
 

All of our choices are caused by a succession of precipitating events that has been unfolding since the Big Bang and over which we exercise no control. It is a deterministic universe, and no one deserves anything.

Say what??
 

.

no one should be laughing
 

How many post-season no-hitters for Pettitte? He's blown out of the water on that one!

Seriously, Halladay got 5 starts in the postseason, Pettitte 41. Don't you think Pettitte's teams might have had something to do with it?

Personally I think they are both HOFers but IMHO, your reasoning is laughable.

" I hope Life doesn't turn out to be one big joke, because I don's get it"...Jack Handey

Agree with most of this but not with Pettitte being an hofer.

The argument about 300 wins is also laughable because Pettitte doesn't have 300 or even 270. Also Pettitte has a career 3.83 era I believe. How many hofers have an era that high.

I'll wait.....

Red Ruffing era was 3.8 but he won 273 games.

Roys era is about 3.6, so not sure how that great era supports him (woudl put him bottom 5 of the current 75 pitchers in HOF). Petiite played 2 more years than Roy yet the two worst seasons between the two pitchers are assessed to Roy not Pettite.

The argument about 300 wins is to say that counting stats matter unless someone with 300 wins doesnt go into the HOF. Not sure thats a laughable argument.

Petitte has about 275 combined wins with postseason and regular season compared to how many by Roy...thats the argument that counting stats matter.

Winning 2 cy youngs doesnt get you into the HOF.

Saying its not fair Petitte got wins on teams that Roy didnt get is all about opportunity. It is what it is. Petitte blows Roy out of the water in wins which is a big stat for the HOF.

You want to talk about how many pitchers get into the HOF with a 3.8 era. (or 3.6 for Roy) .i would counter that with how may starters win less than 203 games get into the HOF and not due to early injury/political reason/also closer etc) Smoltz won 213 for example