Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p><a href="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/news.excerpt/index.html</a><br /><br />&lt;&lt;snip&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Depending on the substance, Bonds used the drugs in virtually every conceivable form: injecting himself with a syringe or being injected by his trainer, Greg Anderson, swallowing pills, placing drops of liquid under his tongue, and, in the case of BALCO's notorious testosterone-based cream, applying it topically.<br /><br />According to the book, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time and was so deeply reliant on his regimen that he ordered Anderson to start "cycles" -- a prescribed period of steroid use lasting about three weeks -- even when he was not due to begin one. Steroid users typically stop usage for a week or two periodically to allow the body to continue to produce natural testosterone; otherwise, such production diminishes or ceases with the continued introduction of synthetic forms of the muscle-building hormone.<br /><br />Bonds called for the re-starting of cycles when he felt his energy and power start to drop. If Anderson told Bonds he was not due for another cycle, the authors write, Bonds would tell him, "F--- off, I'll do it myself.''<br /><br />&lt;&lt;snip&gt;&gt;<br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Absolutely disgusting.<br /><br />He should have to give back the $50,000,000 he has earned by cheating.<br /><br />His stats should be stricken.<br /><br />Cheater.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Does anyone else find it disturbing that the major sources of the books info is from secret grand jury testimony, supposedly sealed files and other sources that are not supposed to be revealed to anyone outside the ongoing investigation? I don't care one way or the other if he used anything or ot. I am worried about less than legitimate way this all being brought to light.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>If the consensus is that he has been using illegal drugs and/or illegally using prescription drugs for the last several years and has been lying about it, I would support his being placed on the ineligible list for the HOF.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Hal, practiacally every player cheats in one way or another, so the point is moot. Persoanlly, I think Leon should delete this thread since these Bonds threads never produce anything productive.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Next year Mark McGwire becomes eligible for the Hall. He will be the test case for all future cheaters. Problem with Bonds is his stats may be too overwhelming to keep him out. I think we are treading into unchartered waters here.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>O/T's are permitted by board participants. Brian is one and doesn't start too many o/t's.....rules are the same for everyone....carry on....

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Oh no, do you mean that character make over where he dressed up like Paula Abdul is going to be forgotten and now we're going to hear Barry defend himself and tell us how much the press is out to get him and how baseball isn't fun anymore... we'll see what happens next week. <br /><br />Jay, this isn't a slam on Bonds. This is the reality that is Bonds. Yes, he is a monster at the plate but he created this little world of his. I'll be honest with you, I enjoy watching him crush the ball.. it's like an art form for him...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>martin dalziel</b><p>Jay, I agree - its very disturbing that the majority of this information is likely from material that should not be accessable. There is the comment at the end of the article that suggests that material was sealed but now is not - that doesn't make sense to me, but it doesn't change the fact that information put into the public domain that is not based on records available to the public should be questioned as to its validity.<br /><br />Having said that, I really wish the truth would come out. I personally believe Bonds has been juiced for years and because of that he has no legitimate standing in the game. His records shouldn't be asteriked, they should be purged and deemed non-consequential.<br /><br />If its proven that he was juiced he should never be eligible for the HOF.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>As a criminal defense attorney, I can tell you that supposedly sealed grand jury testimony is constantly leaked to the media by prosecutors looking for an edge in the court of public opinion. That Bonds is the victim of possibly leaked grand jury testimony - a crime itself - does not cause me to shed a tear for him. I think if Bonds really cared about clearing his name he'd take a polygraph test administered by either a law enforcement polygraph specialist or otherwise universally recognized examiner, instead of dressing up like Paula Abdul and appearing to have some human qualities for the first day in his life. Jay, what you say about cheating and baseball being intertwined I cannot disagree with. However, every generation has its own social mores to be followed and clearly this generation doesn't like cheaters in baseball. It's the reason that Sammy Sosa was basically kicked out of baseball along with Raffy. And why McGwire is universally ignored.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>fkw</b><p>He is a man who hits a baseball with a wooden bat like all before him has. It may have been an advantage it may not have. The guy is still hitting HRs every 7-8 times up, even at 42.... Why because he is that good. The records will stand. Everyone has cheated/had advantages in baseball in some form for 140 years.<br /><br /> The list is long and every era had advantages/disadvantages.....everything from no night games, stealing signs, higher mounds, greenies, DH, corked bats, spitballs, batting helmets, steroids, short fences, elbow/shin guards, no negro players, webbed gloves, maple bats, vasoline, infield fly rule, astroturf, overhand pitch, coke, pinetar, 162 game schedule, 60'6", sunglasses, clean white baseballs after every pitch, domes, batting gloves, scuffing up balls, 5 balls is a walk, ...etc., etc.<br /><br />The game naturally has changed over the last 137 years.<br /><br />The way to correct it is to test for steroids and end it now and they seem to be doing the right thing. Just like outlawing the spitter, making the pitching distance 60'6", and letting Jackie Robinson in the Majors corrected those situations.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Kal</b><p> It's such a joke. Open your eyes and look at him!!!

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>Let's face it. If any sport not only condones cheating but endorses, it’s baseball. If you look at<br />any time period, baseball players cheated. I truly think that much of this is being brought up<br />because people hate Bonds. Look at Roger Clemens. If he isn’t a poster boy for steroids, who is?<br />He has gotten much thicker in the same time period as Bonds. His roid rage has been notorious,<br />throwing the bat at Piazza, etc. Maybe we should check into Clemens and eliminate all his<br />records.<br /><br />What about Schilling? He adamantly voiced his disapproval of steroids and stated he never did<br />them. But what do you think they put in him the night he pitched with a bleeding ankle? Does<br />anyone believe he was enhanced one way or another? Let’s look into that and take away that<br />World Series from the Red Sox, too, if he was administered anything to enhance his<br />performance.<br /><br />Then there’s the classic Hall of Famer, Gaylord Perry. Didn’t he cheat every game he pitched?<br />Let’s go back, erase every out that he induced from the averages of each of those batters and<br />give the batters their due.<br /><br />Also, let’s check all of the hallowed ballplayers of the 50's and 60's that did amphetamines. I<br />stated this before and someone pointed out that it is not the same thing as steroids. I beg to<br />differ. Is taking amphetamines a way to enhance your play chemically? They may not be as<br />potent as steroids, but it was cheating. Let’s put each and every player under oath and ask<br />whether they took any type of amphetamine. If so, purge the records.<br /><br />And finally, when Bonds was supposedly doing steroids was it illegal? That is the key question.<br />Whether it is illegal in the United States has no bearing on whether it was against the rules of<br />baseball. Heck, Dock Ellis pitched a no hitter on LSD! He admitted that. Should we purge that<br />record too.<br /><br />I truly think this is taken out of context and I also feel it is a vendetta against Barry Bonds. If he<br />wasn’t in the picture, they would let McGwire and Sosa and Clemens and all the others alone<br />and never hassle them.<br /><br />My thoughts.<br /><br />Cy

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...people are so concerned is because Bonds holds the single-season record for HR in a season, and is vying for the career mark this year. It is the single most recognizable individual achievement in professional sports in this country. They are the Ruth records. Also known as the Aaron records more recently. No records are more sacred. That is why this topic generates so much controversy. If you had evidence that Ruth, Maris and Aaron were doping to improve their performance, then it would be quite controversial even today. If McGwire still had the single-season record, his testimony before Congress (or lack thereof) would have been much more consequential.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"It's the reason that Sammy Sosa was basically kicked out of baseball"<br /><br />If Sosa was still hitting 50+ HRs a year, he'd still be in demand. The reason he is just about done is because he sucks and can't play a lick anymore.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>whycough</b><p> (like me) to have seen Hank, Mickey, Ted, Willie, Joe. Then you would understand.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Just watch ESPN Classic and you will realize how rampant the problem is...even in the mid 80's the players look frail as compared to the last few years.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>I would like to hear one shred of evidence "Cy" has in support of the claim that Roger Clemens or Curt Schilling are steroid users.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>1. These topics are fun; not everything can be about cardboard, nor should it. A little human interest and current events from time to time is good for the vitality of the board.<br /><br />2. Examples: I am tired of the "they always cheated so it is ok that Bonds is too" line of reasoning. Two wrongs don't make a right. I don't give a crap if every player in baseball used steroids; Bonds is not right to use them too. When your kid writes on the wall with a crayon are you going to accept the "Jimmy does it too" defense?<br /><br />3. Records: From what the SI article said, I don't think we are dealing with a leak here. Moreover, so what? How the records came out doesn't change what they say.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Gross</b><p>Shrinkage of testicles<br />Low sperm count<br />Sterility<br />Cancer of testicles<br /><br />Jaundice<br />Impaied liver function<br />Liver cysts<br />Liver tumors<br />Liver cancer<br /><br />Heartbeat irregularities<br />High blood pressure<br />Fat/sugar metabolism disfunction<br />Increased risk of heart attack<br /><br />Weakness in connective tissue<br />Stunting of bone closure<br /><br />Severe mood swings<br />Hostil, aggressive, violent behavior<br />Changes in sex drive<br /><br />Nausea<br />Water retention and bloating<br />Loss of appetite<br />Vomiting

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cy</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I didn't say Schilling used steroids. But do you think he was shot up with something when he pitched that playoff game? Do steroids only count when one is enhanced chemically? If not, then his win should be erased as well as Bond's records.<br /><br />As far as Clemens is concerned, no one is investigating him. But he has all of the symptoms that Bonds has , and more to me since he definitely showed a lot of steroid rage in his pitching days (as compared to recent times).<br /><br />Cy

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Severe mood swings<br />Hostile, aggressive, violent behavior<br />Changes in sex drive<br />Water retention and bloating<br /><br /><br />Married men, you know what I'm talking about <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p> he definitely showed a lot of steroid rage in his pitching days (as compared to recent times).<br /><br />Cy, in case you weren't watching Roger Clemens had a sub 2.00 ERA LAST YEAR, what do you mean by "in his pitching days"???

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>The truth of the matter is the game's integrity is in place. The baseball that was played from the late eighties to the beginning of this century is not the same game that was played during Roger Maris' time. In every logical debate, there is that one person that is simply fights for the other side and looks for a good debate. <br /><br />Sure there have always been in one form another a slight advantage to the sport, whether it be racism that disallowed baseball to introduce into the mainstream the amazing Josh Gibson or even the slight flutter of a spit ball. But steroids is no way a small way of cheating. It increased the power numbers of hundreds and hundreds of stars and in doing so, tarnished the stat books as it seemed liked everyone was trumping Roger Maris and here we have someone that the world suspects as being a cheat ready to hit the most home runs in the history of baseball. It's bad enough that he trumped Maris' single season record. Now he's about to trump the Bambino. <br /><br />I know of a couple of players that have not been mentioned that took steroids. They were not very good players and basically hung on at the end of the career and were bit players. They got large raises. There home run totals doubled and were able to hang around the sport an extra couple years. If they can turn a five home run a year hitter into a twelve home run a year hitter, than something tells me that it can turn a fifty home run a year hitter into a seventy home run a year hitter. <br /><br />Guilt doesn't come in admission and there's nothing worse than being lied to. Rafael Palmeiro doesn't even have a job. Sammy Sosa doesn't have a job. Bret Boone doesn't have a job. <br /><br />The reason we "pick on" Bonds is because he is about to re-write history and did I miss something? Curt Schilling and Roger Clemens are on steroids? C'mon. <br /><br />Bonds is a bad guy and he's hiding and everyone knows it. Sure he has a sweet swing and that's pretty, but the truth of the matter is that it insults his godfather, the Bambino and Hammering Hank by being included in that exclusive company.<br /><br />DJ

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Cy, <br /><br />Do you have any idea how brutal the daily workout routine of Roger Clemens is? Jerry Rice is the only other athlete I can remember that worked that hard. <br /><br />Let's see some pictures of 43 year-old board members when they were 23 vs. now. I'm guessing most have added a few pounds, too. <br /><br />It's irresponsible and unfair to start throwing around accusations of steroid use because a guy has anger issues and gained some weight. Clemens may have rage, especially in the heat of competetion, but I strongly doubt it is roid rage. <br /><br />But, what Bonds is to hitting, Clemens pretty much is to pitching, so I guess if you're good at what you do, it must be steroids. <br /><br />It's really sad that we've all become so jaded and skeptical after McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro, etc. that when true greatness is right before our eyes, we're blind to it. <br /><br />-Ryan

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>roger clemens is pitching for the USA team in the world baseball classic. the drug testing is the same as in the olyimpics. i must then conclude he and his teammates are clean.FACT is players today are bigger than 20 years ago. ball players did not lift weights years ago. they do lift weights today. weight training is year round for almost all pro athletes. they are much bigger.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Players were working out in the 80s. Many were committed to baseball 12 months per year. They weren't lifting as many weights because they couldn't. The recovery time for weight lifting is lengthy...roughly 48 to 60 hours. It used to be counterproductive to lift weights in season and play ball six days per week. Now with steroids, the recovery time is much quicker and allows players to lift 12 months per year.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Cy, I'm not trying to join in on the point - counter point to what you said but...<br /><br />Clemens didn't throw the bat at Piazza... he chucked the bat off the field and if you watched it he wasn't aiming for Piazza. Piazza just happened to be going back to the plate. Believe me, I wanted the Mets to take down the Yanks and I was no big fan of Clemens that day. Clemens didn't throw the bat at him in anger... I couldn't believe that people were making a big deal out of it.<br /><br />Clemens is where he is because of his workout regimen. I seriously doubt he's a roid maniac. Clemens was always a bit thick and he's added a few pounds. Barry's added a LOT of pure muscle mass.... looks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it must be Barry...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>My recollection is that Clemens just threw the bat sort of contemptuously/disgustedly, but not AT Piazza.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I used to think Clemens was on the juice due to his increased size and longevity. I don't think it anymore. Why on earth would the guy knowingly go into international play with the drug testing? If he was no longer on 'roids he would just embarrass himself - and this is not a guy who enjoys embarrassing himself. As for Bonds, the point made previously that the HR record is the most hallowed in all professional sports is the right one. That's why people hate him so much: he's stomping on all that is holy to us crazed baseball fanatics. Sure lots of guys cheated: but none on such an important issue as the HR record.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Did you see the other day when he was throwing a practice game or maybe it was batting practice against the Astros minor leaguers, his kid takes him deep on the first pitch, next time up he knocks him down, and when asked about it he says "I was just showing him the ball from a different perspective." Hysterical.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>This last weekend I was umpiring a coach pitch game when a dad totally lost control of his pitches. The first one was high and outside, the next one was low and inside, the next two after that were behind the kid and the 5th one hit the kid. He (the dad) was so embarrassed he quit and had to be relieved. I was struggling not to laugh.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>whycough</b><p> Go to www.bostondirtdogs.com for some pictures of the Sultan of Shots.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Rios</b><p>Bonds is always a firm reminder of why we have abortions...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>J Levine</b><p>I hope he makes the Hall of Fame. I hope he tells the truth. I hope he makes millions. As long as he is held responsible for his actions. If the steroids he took (if he actually took them) were illegal at the time then he should be punished. <br /><br />Next, I want to see studies where steroid use is linked to improving hand-eye coordination, bat speed, and form control (the three things it takes to really be a successful major leauge hitter). Steroids are horrifically dangerous and people take them to help them increase strength, mass, and recover and heal faster but is it worth it? <br /><br />If we are going to keep people out of the Hall of Fame for cheating in the game then Perry is out for the spitter-scuff-shine ball. Wait, McGraw is out for his antics at third base and stealing signs. Anson and Kelly are done too, their "cheating" literally changed baseball rules for things like time-outs, out of bounds fouls, baserunning, and line-up switches. Wait, Paige is out too...notorious for stunts that were not quite up to par. Do not even want to talk about Cobb.<br /><br />What I really want Barry to do is to start by making PSAs about the horrific risks of steroid use. I do not care if he admits he did it. If he was serious, he should become the spokesperson for the anti-steroid movement. I would not only be proclaiming my innocence, I would be making sure everyone knew I was opposed to them. <br /><br />I can not believe I even added to this thread...<br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Bonds is always a firm reminder of why we have abortions...<br /><br />Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. No longer in South Dakota it would appear.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Hmmmm...Clemens is lauded for his rigorous workour regimine and is said to be proof that he is not on the juice. Yet this same exact reason is cited as why Bonds is juicing so that he can maintain his manical workout schedule. Which one is it? People also cite all the physical changes to Bonds as proof that he using, yet these same people say it's just natural aging when they talk about Clemens. <br /><br />When you get down to it, if Clemens were Black and hated as much by the press as Bonds is, you'd see the same scrutiny. I'm never one to play the race card, but so much of this is about race, the media's dislike for Bonds and the fact that he chasing hallowed records. Some also mentioned the fact taht Clemens playing in the WBC is proof positive that he is not using. What a laughable statement. If he and Bonds are currently using, they are using something that cannot currently be detected. If they aren't using anything, they quit when baseball implemented the stricter testing and penalties. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bonds has been tested twice since the new rules came into effect and he has come up clean both times. Guess he never used either.<br /><br />Face it, Clemens is white and beloved by the writers. They don't want to see anything happen to him, so they aren't going to persue any possible sterroid use by him.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>rob</b><p>Is it any wonder that's he's retiring now? He hit the most vicious line drive single to a 3rd baseman I had ever seen in my life, anyone else would have had a line drive out. Sosa had terrible acne as a side effect, something which I've seen referred to once, and not mentioning Sosa by name. <br /><br />I have no problem with Bonds and Palmerio getting elected to the Hall of Fame. As it's been pointed out, pitchers have used and benefited from steroid use as well.<br /><br />No one complains that Burleigh Grimes is in the Hall of Fame, yet he had the advantage of using the spitball throughout most of his career while the opposing pitcher was forbidden to use that pitch. A much better argument can be made Grimes had an unfair advantage as opposed to Palmerio and Bonds.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>rp60</b><p>I disagree that race is a factor with Bonds, in this instance. People are responding to the alligations, his career numbers, and his personality, and not the fact he is a black man..Its not a 'given' that it is a factor. At least not to me...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Chris Mc</b><p> I wasn't going to put my two cents in but upon reading the article feel a need to vent a little. What has happened is a wrong. There are many wrongs in sports that are or have been tolerated. Wife beaters, drug addicts, tax cheats and many other "kinds" of criminals. The biggest point and I don't think it was mentioned is what kind of message is it sending to the kids. Hey , as long as you are good at the sport you play it doesn't matter what you do so long as you don't get caught. It's the wrong message and I think professional athletes should adhere to higher standards.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>rp60</b><p>Heres to innocence lost through Baseball..Thats why it is the greatest of all games..

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Kal</b><p> Steve Somers, "The Schmoozer," on WFAN last night (NY sports radio) while talking about Bonds.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>There is no innocence in baseball, and there never was. <br />I don't care if it is kids learning about gambling by flipping cards or buying a pack and getting lucky with a high value insert -or- a professional athlete being banned from the sport for life because he got caught doing something illegal.<br /><br />Its all luck + politics.<br /><br />The only thing which counts is what counts. And so far, there have been very few "do-overs" in baseball. ie. if you strike out on a spitball, you have struck out. The pitcher may be thrown out of the game, but you have struck out.<br /><br />Everything Bonds, Clemens, Rose, etc. has ever done in baseball counts. And I applaud them for that, eventhough I realize some of the methods used may be questionable. But that applies to lots of guys, for lots of years.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>rp60</b><p>The innocense lost that I speak of in not in Baseball. Rather it is in the realization of lifes lessons through Baseball..And, for what its worth, Bonds, I believe is the finest hitter of his generation.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, before you start playing the race card you might want to address one small issue that may be the reason why society and the press are tougher on Bonds than Clemens: a) Bonds has admitted to unknowingly taking a topical steroid, and b) a book just came out detailing on an hour by hour basis, culled from witness statements, tapes, documents, etc., Bonds's steroid use. Nothing of the sort exists with regard to Clemens. Small, niggling point, I agree, but I'm sure Whitey and The Man would probably think it's significant.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>ChuckkieB</b><p>I would just like to point out that Mark McGwire, who was at one point, one of the most beloved players in MLB over the lst 25 years, who is white, by the way, was dragged through the mud worse than any athlete that I can remember.....based on a lot less "proof" than the dirt piling up on Bonds, mind you......so this notion that Bonds is target because he's black and Clemens isn't because he's white is ludicrous to me. Bonds is a target because he's chasing the most coveted record in sports and his personal trainer and other associates have either been indicted or liked to the BALCO steriods scandal. THAT, in total, is why he is "being targeterd." The fact that he happens to have one of the most surly, mean, egotistical, and unfriendly personalities of anyone ever to be in the public eye doesn't help much either. Just my two cents. <br /><br /><br />CB

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>I agree 100% with Chuck!<br /><br />Look at Palmeiro, McGuire, Sosa...all beloved by most...until they were caught cheating.<br /><br />Bonds may be the greatest hitter of our time...but he's still a cheater...and not just a cheater, but a cheater and a jerk!<br /><br />Noone likes a cheater!<br /><br />pete in mn

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>This is actually good because now Bonds can SUE these tabloids (S.I., et al) for making all of these false allegations. Now Barry can have his day in court and have all of these sports rags (like S.I.) print the retraction to the lies that they are propagating about him. America is a great country!!!<br /><br />I'm pretty sure there aren't going to be many kids that look at him and say - "say it aint so Joe" er, I mean Barry.<br /><br />The race card? Barry seems to pull it out at his convenience.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Let's see the libel suit...and while we're at it maybe a flying monkey can steal Barry's dog...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Aside from race, don't lose sight of Jay's point that many aspects of Bonds and Clemens career are extremely close parallels...1) physical/bodily changes, 2) an extraordinary ability to maintain a rigorous workout regiment well into 40's, and 3) high level performance well into their 40s. Some of you like to say "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."<br /><br />I hate to say it put Jose Canseco has proven to be one of the more credible guys on the subject. Sheeesh, I can't believe I wrote that. But after identifying many users, he has said he believes few if any baseball players are using RIGHT NOW. There is simply to much scrutiny. It makes one wonder how many of these guys' careers were totally propped up by steroids? Is it coincidental that Sosa's and Bret Boone's careers just recently crashed? They are not old guys.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>ChuckkieB</b><p>The only thing worse than an athelete being a cheater is one that is a cheater AND a liar. Palmiero has been disgraced because he cheated, yes, but even more so because he LIED about it with a straight face. People can forgive a cheat, but not a liar. Barry Bonds is about to be exposed as the biggest cheater and liar of them all. <br /><br />CB

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>in that they're saying he said the juice made his eyesight better.......I always conceded that the steroids would help the power but always defended Bonds on his great average, figuring that he was still a hell of a hitter. Guess that argument might be lost now if it really affected his eyesight in a positive way as well.......<br /><br />A big difference I can see between Bonds and Clemens though is that Bonds is CUT....I mean he really exhibits the steroid muscles while Clemens actually just looks quite a bit fatter. Not sure what that really proves but if you look at mid-to-late 1980's cards of both, they were SIGNIFICANTLY smaller as was Sosa and MANY more of those guys.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>The Rocket has a pretty big payload...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Clemens is obviously taking the fat building steroids while Bonds is taking the muscle building roids. I don't see Clemens arms bursting out of his uniform and he doesn't appear to have THROWN on a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. I guess if Roger worked as hard at it as Bonds did then maybe he could become just as big. <br /><br />Again, I can't wait for Bonds to defend himself, now. Once and for all I just want to hear him say he didn't do it - I'd believe him now, wouldn't you?<br /><br />As much as a lot of us don't like Bonds we sure like to watch him take his cuts. <br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Everyone likes a cheater, well maybe not everyone. But gimme a well planned heist or a good scam as the basis for a movie, and I am happy.<br /><br />Tell me how Preacher Roe and Gaylord Perry eluded the watchful eyes and plied their trade while using the (evil) spitball. Tell me about the Black Sox, McGraw's antics, Cobb, Speaker and others entering into collusion for throwing games, Franchise baseball, pirating, robbing players, "inconceivable" trades and an endless list of cheating throughout baseball history.<br /><br />Steroids? Who cares. Get away with what you can, just be ready to pay the price when caught. It is the way the game always has been played.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Over half of the players that have test positive for steroids have been pitchers, yet less than half the roster is made up of pitchers. You all seem to think that because Clemens isn't ripped like Bonds that is proof he didn't juice. All it proves is that you don't need ripped muscles to be a great pitchers. Other thing that everyone says about steroids is that it allows you bounce back from workouts and injuries quicker. Hmmmm, Clemens is a workout fanataic. Just might be that he can continue this regime with chemical aids. <br /><br />It cracks me up, you guys sit and there defend Clemens as a nonuser with the same arguments you use to make your point that Bonds is a user.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Chris Mc</b><p> When Bonds comes down with a steroid/growth hormone type problem (health)it shouldn't be any surprise. Take a look at the home run leaders that you are pretty sure are not taking steroids and compare the totals to players who you think are on it. I now know just how special Ruth and Maris'home run record seasons were.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>I'm not going to beat up or support Bonds as both sides have already been laid out. However, I would like to look at one important thing that hasn't been brought up yet.<br /><br />Over the years, the perception of sports and competition have dramatically shifted. What used to be viewed as a game has now become big business and tremendous pressure. While Major Leaguers take every liberty to stay competitive and earn the big dollars, a lot of this translates to the little league diamonds too. We've been taught to never accept faliure and to always win....there's no place for second place.<br /><br />It's certainly not an excuse for cheating or dancing around the rules. Steroid use, whether it was banned or not in baseball, was illegal during the times in question. However, our culture has shifted to the point where we place tremendous pressures on ourselves to always "one up" the other. My friend and I always discuss this issue as it does seem to be a root of so many problems. <br /><br />It's ok to be satisfied once in a while. Being the best is great but it may not be worth the sacrifice. It's kind of like selling your soul.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>"Steroids? Who cares."<br /><br />For one, federal prosecutors charged with enforcing the law.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Anybody Peter, who uses a prescription drug without a perscription is guilty of a crime, I agree. However, persons far less wealthy than Bonds, can obtain a prescription without difficulty.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Who was writing Barry's prescriptions? I missed that. EDITED TO ADD Even if he (or other players) didn't break the law, to me there is an obvious difference in the level of concern generated by throwing a spitball and using dangerous performance enhancing drugs.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>In a print and media world where news passes, why is that the VBC Forum is the only forum that talks about Clemens being on steroids? <br /><br />I don't get it. <br /><br />Jose Canseco made no mention of it in his book and he's been pretty accurate so far. <br /><br />Because Clemans is a freak at this age and an amazing aging specimen? Since we're passing about rumors, has anyone seen Julio Franco of late? I'm pretty sure he's on one of those 1963 Topps rooie cards with three other fellas.<br /><br />Four pitchers were suspended last year for steroid use, basically all scrubs (outside middle reliever Juan Rincon and only one starter in Ryan Franklin, a total turd). They basically used the stuff to recover from injuries and I heard somewhere that Rincon gained rougly five miles per hour on his fast ball, and of course, he had no idea he had taken the stuff. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Holy crap, I just realized that the biggest freak of them all (when age is being used as a consideration) was Nolan Ryan. Is it time to start a new rumor? Did Nolan take roids or not? Clemens and Ryan are both physical freaks of nature but they don't look anything like Barry. <br /><br />Not to worry, when Barry clears his name he'll SUE and own S.I. and then he can ensure that everything written about him has a positive spin to it. Wow, Barry Bonds, editor in chief of Sports Illustrated...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Nolan clearly was on roids, didn't he have a major rage episode when he put the guy who charged the mound in a headlock? Plus I bet he weighed more at the end of his career than when he started. Plus he was a workout fanatic. That's all the proof I need. Only reason noone has said anything is cuz he's white.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>There is no comparing Clemens' "workouts" versus Ryan's. Ryan maintained his ability to pitch well into his 40s because of AEROBIC workouts...those were commonly discussed and written about. Now, if Clemens is maintaining a similar ability to pitch because of a strict workout regiment, it is NOT aerobic or else he would be working off that extra chin. Now I don't know if Clemens is working out or not, but many on this board seem to think that is the answer to his longevity. Well if he is working out with weights in season and staying in shape in that fashion...there is only one way in which to recover quickly, especially at age 43.<br /><br />Edited to say: There is really nothing in his physical stature that makes me think that he has any kind of extraordinary work out program...perhaps he is just a phenominal pitcher.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>You guys go ahead and live in your deluded little world where Clemens is as pure as the driven snow. I'll continue watch all baseball players under the rule that you hold only Bonds to, guilty until proven innocent. <br /><br />I really don't care who is usuing and who isn't, but don't kid yourself that the great players of the past 10 years are pure, unenhanced players.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Bonds is being singled out partly because he is a miserable person but mostly because he has broken one of the games most hallowed records and is going after an even bigger one. Gaylord Perry admits that he had vaseline hidden on his person but he challenged no records and is lost in the shuffle of mediocre Hall of Famers.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>I think today, you have to be a total "tool" to do steroids and in saying that, I think Bonds 70* will never be touched as you won't see anyone close to 60, and maybe a couple over 50. <br /><br />It took almost 40 years for a bunch of cheats to defeat Maris' magical season. Hold on! Didn't Maris hit 39 dingers the year before and 33 dingers the year after? Hmmmm...<br /><br />Was that Clemens in the early sixties on the grassy knoll? <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />edit: Ned Williamson was first on roids.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Had to join in. First about steroids do not belive most of what you think you know. Steroids do not make you bigger, eating more calories (FOOD) than you burn makes you grow.There are 165lb powerlifters that are on the juice and you would never know it by looking at there physic. Steroids have been around sports since the early 60's so who really knows who has used and who has not. When HGH is added to the mix look out. That is where the freak show begins, which is what has been going on in mlb for about the last 10 years.In 1998 when sosa mcgwire basically brought baseball back from the dead everyone loved it watched it and enjoyed it. Now the truth about the last 10 years is out, tough to swallow?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>Everybody likes to play the What if game with Ted Williams as far as "What if he didn't miss 5 years because of military duty?"<br /><br />Well, let's do the same thing with Bonds, except in reverse. What if Bonds didn't do steroids for 5 years of his career, what would his stats look like??<br /><br />My guess is his Batting average, slugging percentage, on base percentage, OPS, Runs, Walks, Intentional Walks, RBI's, Home Runs and Total Bases would all decrease. With that said, he probably wouldn't have 7 MVP Awards and his total game would look more like Ken Griffey Jr's. <br /><br />That would still be a great career and probably First Ballot Hall of Fame numbers but nowhere near what he has accomplished while juiced.<br /><br />Personally, if I were Commishioner, I woulod set an example and put Bonds on the inelegible list so that he can no longer play the game and is not on the Hall of Fame ballot. They did it to Rose for gambling and lying and they should do it to Bonds.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The 73 home runs was one thing, but I have to admit that when he had that .862 slugging percentage the following year, that was too good to be true. That's just too far off the charts and I don't think anyone could achieve a number like that without some help.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Spencer</b><p>While the answer is, I guess, obvious (putting fans in seats in the ballpark), I wonder if the Giants owners and management couldn´t have done a better job controlling Bond´s more aberrant behavior. Instead they put up with stuff for their "super star" that would have sent most players looking for other teams, eg. building him a separate space in the locker room (now there is great way to build team spirit),his nearly inhumane treatment of the press, fighting with his teammates etc. It seemed that as long as he keept hitting them deep, the Giants would tolerate most anything. And if he did indeed abuse steroids the way it is being portrayed then I can hardly belíeve that the front office didn´t know about it. Perhaps Barry took too many lessons from his Godfather, Willie Mays, who I saw reduce to tears young fans with his disgusting behavior at card shows.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>As a follow up to my previous post, think of the poor player who didn't take steroids and played out of his mind for a year. He might have won an MVP Award if Bonds hadn't been juicing.<br /><br />I thought of this when I was thinking about what either Wally Joiner said or what someone said about about Wally Joiner. They were talking about Mark McGwire using Andro (and possibly more) and brought up Joiner. They were saying if McGwire hadn't been on creative substances, Joiner's stats would have looked better and he would have made more All-Star teams.<br /><br />With players getting bonuses for making the All-Star team, theoretically McGwire took (stole) money from Joiner....<br /><br />Following that line of thinking, the same could be said of Bonds, except in his case, it would be worse because he stole someone else's MVP Award and that is remembered more in history than an All-Star selection.<br /><br /><br />David

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>ERNEST</b><p>Barry Bonds is not and will not ever be a Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth are even Roger Marris. We talk about records this and that. I find it just a little unusally that Mark McGwire retired when he did and Barry Bonds sit out almost the intire 2004-2005 season with a bad knee so he says. Look at Hank Aaron what he done 755 home runs (very small player) comparied to these big guys today. Babe Ruth set the standard for everone to follow. Here is my home runs players for a season. Roger Marris (61) Babe Ruth (60), Forget about everone else. Most career home runs (Hank Aaron (755) Babe Ruth (714. Like it are dont't. End of story.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>FatPitchers</b><p>I no big Clemens fan, but Clemens looks more to me like David Wells than Mark McGwire. If you look at Nolan Ryan, Schilling and Clemens as rookies, and compare them to late in their careers, they all porked-up. Clemens isn't fat like Wells, but he isn't huge like the known 'roid takers.<br /><br />And the theory that Bonds is somehow being singled-out because of his race and dislike by the media is simply not true. You can span all the colors of the rainbow with McGwire, Canseco, Palmiero and Sosa ... all popular in their day and idolized in the media in their team's cities. Yet they suffer the same stigma as Bonds. Bonds' stigma may be more intense, but that's only because he's the best player of the bunch (and perhaps the most disliked as a person).<br /><br />And if media dislike is the barometer, then perhaps that's proof Clemens is actually clean. Clemens is HATED in Boston, so wouldn't he have been outed by the Boston media already if they could have done so?<br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Where were all the critics, do-gooders and the morally-pristine when there were "allegations" of baseball players beating their wives and girlfriends; getting in drunken brawls; betting on the teams they manage and treating their fans like crap? <br /><br />Whether he's right or wrong, why all the venom towards Bonds? Simply because he, as a player (with or without the alleged juice) is head and shoulders above the other "alleged" offenders? Or is it because he "cheated?" There are plenty of others who have "cheated" on AND off the field, so where are the 74 posts to their follies?

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>To think that Bonds off the juice would not have won an MVP is laughable. To say his What If career would be Junioresque is also laughable. How do we know he isn't juiced? <br /><br />Bonds is an incredible hitter, juice or no juice. Steroids don't improve hand eye coordination or help get the bat on the ball. If this were true, the freaks from pro wrestling would dominate baseball.<br /><br />The current assumption is that most players are juiced. Why would you think that Bonds wouldn't win an MVP if no one was juiced? He might not have won 7, but I'm sure he would have won a fair number.<br /><br />People's hatred for Bonds is such they will make wild assertations that they would never make about other players. <br /><br />As for the lame copout that Clemens is fat, so he can't be using. Using steroids in and of itself doesn't give you the body of a Greek god. You need to work out in such a way as to make you body look that way. Look at powerlifters. You won't find a chisled muscle on those guys and most sport some extra weight, just like Clemens. So don't delude yourself into thinking that just because a guy isn't ripped means he isn't using steroids.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>It's a little known fact that that the 1st Olympic competitor disqualified for steroid use was 10,000 meter runner Martti Vaino in 1984. He would had escaped detection if he had not also not been blood doping, adding back his steroid tainted blood. Fact is his steroid use was not to build muscles, but to keep up a running regimen of running 100+ miles a week and not get injured.<br /><br />The most startling physical transformation of an athlete with banned drugs was Florence Griffith Joyner. Her records from the 1988 olympics haven't been approached. Performance enhancing drugs had to had been widely used in baseball by then. I know I'd take them for the money that was at stake. Drug use in the 1990's simply got highly refined is all, to the point where the super juicers were leaving the clean athletes in the dust, to the point records got obliterated. <br /><br />BTW, if the Colorado Rockies ever want to win 85 games in a season, they need to have their athletes dope back their own blood during the season. Heck, perhaps Todd Helton blood dopes, everyone else gets ground up during the course of a season at altitude.<br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>You are right about Flo-Jo. She was the female version of Ben Johson, physically. Because everyone loved her, no one dared breath the S word, especially after she died. I was really hoping her family would have come forward and admitted that her early death was due to all the performance enhancing drugs she took. It was great to see Lyle Alzado and John Matuzak step forward about what steroid use ahd done tot hem before they died, but it obviously didn't have much impact.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p> I agree that Bonds was a great player before the alleged steroids. I disagree that steroids does not improve your hitting. No player ever that I can think of (except for Bonds) has improved like that as they approached 40 & beyond. That is not natural, & that is not how baseball works.