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Posted By: <b>bigfish</b><p>delete<br /><br /><br /><br />edited title to make current thread more specifically titled...ed.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>I disagree. I do not see any reason why this file should be deleted. There does not appear to have been any rules broken. At worst, it could be locked.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I think I know what this was about and if it is what i think it was, I was letting it fly, personally. I guess one of the other moderators thought it was crossing the line on selling on the front page.....close call imo.....regards

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Posted By: <b>bigfish</b><p>I deleted this after thinking this could be crossing the line. Leon, you and I talked about this before so I deleted my question myself. No big deal. I am not selling the card that I was looking for information about.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>So then, this thread is available for anyone to use? Good. I will claim it. I need a place to come and mutter, grumble, muse and (I'll try not to) kick the spitoon.<br /><br />Even Superman needed a Fortress of Solitude!<br /><br />I am willing to share this space for free. But I have no plans to seceed from the union of the other threads, and declare this one a soverign entity.<br /><br />However, a reinterpretation of the rules of engagement may be evaluated. But that is not the intent. So, here goes my first musing:<br /><br />I recently purchased my first two Fan Craze cards (thanks Leon). I had thought they were small. but they barely fit into 9 - pocket ring binder pages. I don't much like game cards, because on most the game indication overwhelms the player portrayal. But not on these (and some others). Actually, one of the cards, McGraw, had no indication of game play. How can that be? What would be the point of a game card which only shows a player?<br /><br />No answer required, simply a wonderment.<br /><br />Again, feel free to come and muse (or whatever) as you may wish. But one of the rules is posts do not have to follow the subject matter posted previously, but they can.<br /><br />Or is this approach prohibited?<br /><br />Also, only one occupant at a time. As in "....... of solitude". <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>And what is with these e-cards which it seems that everyone wants? In general, the artwork and design of these cards are of lower quality than the corresponding t-cards; although not as much so as the notorious strip cards.<br />Yet the demand for these cards remains strong.<br /><br />Is this a buying opportunity for t-cards? What is next on the agenda for collector focus? Perhaps non-Goudey vintage r-cards.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Speaking for myself, the bright colors, scarcity and smaller set sizes are all pluses for e-cards.

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>i agree tbob...and the unique poses poses don't hurt either.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>E-cards rock!<br />T-cards rock!<br />W-cards rock!<br />N-cards rock!<br />M-cards rock!<br />etc, etc, etc<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>bcDaniels</b><p>more questions?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>You in a hurry?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Well tbob, when I think about your rationale for collecting e-cards, it makes a lot of sense. Id like to expand upon it to see if I get it.<br /><br />Small sets! Yes, something achievable in a reasonable time interval. And the reward of completion.<br /><br />Rarity! Hmmm, somewhat double edged. Although it keeps the value of the completed set clearly worth its assembly, it makes the actual acquisition of each card more difficult. This plays somewhat against one of the values of the small set, making achievement more difficult. But if balanced right, it optimizes the overall package.<br /><br />Pretty colors! Well the backgrounds are colorful, in an almost eerie unrealistic extraterrestrial cacophony. Clearly this does not offset, in my opinion, the comparative lack in artistic quality of this group of e-cards. However, some sets are available in multiple solid color backgrounds. Choosing to collect a set of all the same background color would be striking, I believe. Opting for multiple sets (of the same set) differing only by background color would be awesome. Quite an attractive and costly option, which I believe you have underway.<br /><br />And all: if you are collecting these sets, please do not take my words to heart. After all, what do I know? And on a good day, I can’t afford to collect almost any of them, without giving up something which I want more (like paying my bills). Although I will be buying more CJs, because I have to – but only the red ones.<br /><br />And this brings us to a rule of engagement: Not everything said in this thread is necessarily as thought out nor as thoughtful as it could be. Please do not take offense at these potential errors in judgement. We are sorry, and we are careless, and we are men (that is, unless we are not).<br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Locking a B/S/T ? Ha! Now that is hilarious!<br />Boy, that Dorskind guy sure knows how to rub people the wrong way.<br />But really what has he done?<br />He has said that his original plan was to acquire high quality cards preferentially, because he thought that they had the best upside. It appears that he has been doing this. Maybe even the best heeled of us occasionally has cash flow considerations. So, can I forgive not buying quality cards when offered? Well , yes. Can I accept that he is not a good communicator? Who am I to judge? Well I respond to inquiries. The "blowing people off" stuff was my kids generation, but I showed them that it hurt them to employ that approach. Maybe he doesn't know that yet - and maybe y'all just explained that to him. And yeah, his "we" and "you can e-mail me directly" stuff is really more silly than actually annoying.<br />It sounds to me like he has been in this hobby for some time, perhaps he has experiences, contacts, information, cards and other stuff which could be enjoyable or instructive. I vote "let him play". Am I alone?<br />This community persists because of our ability to tolerate each other in an environment fraught with the starkness of everything typed. The potential for misunderstanding is tremendous. I have no vested nor other interest in this guy. Continuing to accept his participation appears to be in keeping with our unspoken policy of accepting almost anyone who wishes to contribute. Go ahead, hang me!

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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I too bought one of Leon's cards... and I'm oh so happy with the card, the easy transaction, wonderful wonderful.<br /><br />If the card won't fit in the 9 pocket sheets, you could try a 6 or 4 pocket sheet, or cut the card down to fit. How often do we find E90-1s or E98 cards trimmed down. I have a trimmed W512 card. And some E120s that were clipped a bit.<br /><br />I'm happy with my card just as it is. But if a card is too big, it could be trimmed down to suit. It isn't the same as soaking a card to stretch it out so you have big margins.<br /><br />Clip, clip.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Well Frank,<br /><br />I agree that most cards with white borders will look better without them, and that the function of the border is to protect the picture area from damage. What I don't understand is why a card is graded harshly just because the border has served its function.<br /><br />To me, not cutting the border off is a testament to the card's history. Perhaps a part of its provenance for all to see: "this card was not ferreted away from the others, it is a trooper"! I don't think that I would want to lose that badge of honor simply because I am too lazy to buy the proper size binder page.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>therefore I am.......

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I am happiest when I put butterscotch pudding in my pants.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Doctor Freud, Dr. Sigmund Freud:<br /><br />Please pick up the white courtesy telephone in the Grand Concourse.<br /><br />Dr. Freud, please pick up the white telephone, now.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This is a fascinating thread. It's garnered all these responses without an identifiable topic. Kind of stream of consciousness. We can talk about anything we want here...hmm, can't think of anything to say...we had a tornado here in Westchester yesterday, knocked over a building and lots of trees... that's it, I'm tapped out.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>How come we have tornados on the east coast now? The Global Warming believers take credit for anything unusual, and I hate to put one more piece of misinformation in their war bonnet.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I must say we are getting more and more extreme and unusual weather these days. Global warming? Certainly seems plausible to me.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Is it me, or has the board been extremely quiet lately? Not many posts, no chat, etc.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>How can we know so little about some of these cards when we are only a generation or two removed from having living people around that were alive when they were issued?<br /><br />How do we know a blank backed card like V61 is Nielson's, but there are three or four caramel sets that are officially named "Anonymous"? Not talking very limited sets like the Herp's find, but cards that were obviously in widespread distribution. You mean in 100 years not one person ever turned to their parent, or grandparent, and said 'Hey - where did you guys get these things? What kind of candy?'.<br /><br />Or do we know what candy these were with? I would think if we did they would be named or referred to as such, as the Willard's and Nielson's are.<br /><br />I like this thread for both card related and non card related pondering and musings.<br /><br />Joann

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Coins and stamps being Government issued, have documentation of circulation strikes and mintages. And both have been collected from their outset.<br /><br />The baseball card hobby only really began when the first annual price guide was issued. So much information was lost. But that the information is not easily recoverable seems strange to me.<br /><br />Id normally say ... many have tried, and failed. But evidence that actual trying has not occured is everywhere. Wasn't it only a year or so ago that one of us noted that the Boston uniform on Caruthers in the N28 set establishes that the set was produced a year later than was thought. His presentation of this insight was along the lines of "please tell me that I am not the first to notice this ..."<br /><br />Perhaps there is plenty of room for some investigative work still left in the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Gil- I think you mean Clarkson, but you are correct that that was the card which established the date.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>global warming debate. We're having a cooler than normal summer this year after a warmer than normal winter. I think overall I agree that there is global warming although I'm not sure if I believe it's all based on human consumption, fuels, aerosols, etc, etc. Numbers can be manipulated to suit whatever the goal is.......<br /><br />I agree on some of Joann's concerns about more details on the cards. I think Burdick spent SO much time just cataloging everything from tobacco to candy to coffee to every kind of postcard, etc.....that he didn't really have time to detail more of the info on individual sets that we're all working so diligently on now. That said, obviously much of the research now is driven based on the value of some of the cards. In the 1930's and 1940's, it would have been easier to document info about 1910's cards but because they were really just in the infancy of creating an area of collecting, it wasn't so important to them.<br /><br />As someone said earlier, the coin and stamp realms were well documented and developed back into the mid-to-late 19th century with published and documented details.<br /><br />Interesting discussion........

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Tom- I know we aren't supposed to talk about political issues so Leon is free to axe this as and when he pleases. I don't think a slightly cooler summer is an indication that global warming isn't a problem. Melting polar ice caps and very intense hurricanes, as well as all the pollutants in the air, are matters that should be of great concern to everyone. It saddens me that many people still think this is all about liberals spouting off and not a real issue. In time everyone will come around but I guess things aren't catastrophic enough yet. When they reach that point, the issue will be taken more seriously (Hi Leon, did I go too far?)

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>since when did weather become "political?" C'mon now. <br /><br /><br />To echo Tbob, e-cards are great becaue of their color, poses, and small set size which makes obtaining a full set not as draining as others. <br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No, the weather isn't political. If it's raining out we all agree. Global warming unfortunately is.

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Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p>oooh, a free for all thread.<br /><br />Darren posted that M cards rock. I'm with you, but my predication is to the Supplements, Sporting News and Police Gazette's especially.<br /><br />I know they're not compact, aren't easily stored, but i think they're tremendously under-valued for their relative scarcity, especially condition wise. Global warming doesn't help any due to the higher humidity levels.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Yes Barry, thank you for refreshing my memory on which of those guys (I always confuse the names) was cited in the n28 set date identification.<br /><br />But regarding the global warming hypothesis, I do not see this as political at all. It is solely scientific. As such, statements including "You can not deny that the average temperature is higher than it was 3-400 years ago. And you really can't contend that it is a coincidence that the industrial revolution occured during this period." Are fraught with hype.<br /><br />Because if the temerature is the highest its been in the last several hundred years, then it follows that 3-400 years ago it was this high. And this is the observation of much of the scientific community. Specifically, conclusions can not be drawn based on hundreds of years of data for application to a system (this planet) which has typical temperature variation in much greater cycles. So, a 400 year variance is perhaps one data point among many which has to be assessed in order to estimate a trend.<br /><br />Yes, ice melts. Primarilly in the warmer season. It always has. It freezes too. But is it time to buy up property in Chicago, because it is sure to be ocean front anytime soon? That may be premature.<br /><br />Global warming is a theory which if true could have significant consequence. As such, the media will play it up because it impacts ratings and sales. But if you think beyond the hype, I believe that the conclusion will be reached that no conclusion can be reached.

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Why is it political? Because some people in the media say so? Science is science, politics is politics. <br />Don't fall into that trap.<br /><br /><br />To keep it on vintage cardboard: <br />I have only seek a Kotton tobacco Ty Cobb. Are there other cards with Kotton backs?<br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yes Gil- empirically, global warming is factual. It is political when I hear people blame Al Gore for writing a book and making a movie about it. On some level it does become a Republican/Democrat issue. And whether you care if the ice caps are melting or not, well it may not affect me living in Brooklyn. But every time I take a breath it does affect me ( I know, Brooklyn is a big congested city, move to the country). And my folks live in southern Florida and the hurricanes keep getting worse each year and I worry about them.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I was just wondering, loudly..........<br /><br />I started a thread a little while ago which also asked the question of what is known of the origins of collecting sportscards, and was really very surprised how little seems to be understood of the times and issues.<br /><br />So, I'm wondering, loudly, and repeatedly............<br /><br />Would it be possible, through some nationally syndicated medium such as the USA today newsapaper, or internet site such as Yahoo, to have them run an "interest" column that asks readers to email with stories relating to the early history of things..like...sportscards?<br />I'm sure they could come up with other interest areas and it could be a daily or weekly quest, and all the stories gathered and passed on to the specific forums who have the time and will to cipher through them and flesh out the respective histories.<br /><br />Probably not doable, but who thinks it a good idea?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Controlled botanical studies have shown that as the carbon dioxide levels are increased, pine trees increase their growth by up to 1/3rd. So, as tailpipe emissions affect Brooklynites, trees are contributing in the fight by producing extra growth = more oxygen and less CO2.<br /><br />This planet knows how to take care of itself. Its designer thought everything out quite well. We survived much greater catastrophies than industrialization.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Who is Al Gore?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You remember Al Gore- he's the guy who won the presidency in 2000 (just had to get that in).

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I kind of like the rambling thread theory. I wonder if we could make it go over 300 posts? As for global warming I would NOT call that a political debate. I would call it a fact....We have an extreme drought going on in N.Texas and are nearing record 100+ degree temperatures everyday...and then in Houston it's flooding...go figure. Say pretty much whatever you want to in this thread....but no personal attacks please....<br /><br />edited statement to mirror my thought

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I was wondering where you were. I thought you went to the beach and left your computer home. And thanks for keeping this thread going- I promise to behave.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I got back from the beach 2 days ago and posted on the board that evening...as a few folks were looking for me....regards.....

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Oh, Dangling Chad's real name is Al?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I heard you were away, but the beach must have been 200 degrees. And dangling chad-what a cool term. You can have a lot of fun with that one...such as "Hey Johnny, your chad is dangling" or something like that.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Forecasters warned that parts of eastern Massachusetts could receive 30 inches of snow by late Sunday, and up to 3 inches an hour could fall in some places. A blizzard warning was in effect for eastern New York and western New

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>An inch of snow would feel awfully good right now. The humidity is about 90%.

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Posted By: <b>PStratton</b><p>He did invent the internet. Without Al Gore we wouldn't be talking about old baseball cards. Is a "hanging chad" a variation or just a freak printing error? What would a "hanging chad" grade? Do they come with both red and blue backgrounds? I've only seen them with the blue myself.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Touche. By the way, did Al Gore really invent the internet? Don't you have to be kind of a techno-geek to do that? He may have been one of the first to promote it, but was he really the inventor? He's a smart guy, but maybe not quite that smart. Would have made a good president though. Too bad.

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Posted By: <b>Enright, Daniel</b><p>As an ozzie boy who has lived abroad in countries other than the US of A, and travelled reasonably extensively in life, you yanks just mystify me.<br />It's strange that in pretty much the rest of the entire world, where learnedness and faith are AT LEAST as evolved as the best America has to offer, science is treated with equal reverence as faith. So why not here? <br />Gil muddles on about pine trees - how much of the USA is now forrested compared to 150 years ago? Has each pine tree grown correspondingly taller to reach some mile and a half in height to make up for shortfall?<br />As drinking water becomes a commodity to be bought in supermarkets, and oceans rise, isn't there something strangely absurd about arguing if it was worse or as bad in previous history.....Ummm, we didn't have billions of people living in jiiinormous cities at ocean level in centuries past, waiting to be swept away by the next big storm!! As ozone fails to replenish itself and people die in extraordinary numbers from melanoma cancer each year, should we debate the effects of aerosols, methane, and industry induced fossil fuel burning that have changed the way we, and our kids have to live? Where I come from in Australia we have the highest rates of melonoma in the world - because of a giant hole in the ozone that stretches above our continent.<br /><br />It's insane. Even the pope, and the vatican, warn not to mix belief/faith/religion with science. But here, in the US, it's some sort of strange game to argue with the truth as though each individual - regardless of intelect and knowledge in the area of expertise - can claim equal 'rightness' on the issue.<br />Here's a story that's personal to illustrate.<br />I married into a wonderful family who have lived in parts of Kansas - Greensburg and Manhattan primarily - for a hundred years.<br />My father-in-law worked as an Ag. lobbyist for 30 years, is both bright and educated and intensely devoted to his Christian beliefs. His wife is also a beautiful woman spiritually and generous of soul.<br />So one christmas the larger family is united and a boyfriend of my wife's sister starts talking about the age of the earth, that it can't be what science says because.............He READ, from Christian scientists, that when Armstrong and co. landed on the moon, the moon dust was only 1 foot deep (or some such number), and that "regular" scientists had predicted an entirely different estimate to correspond with the age of the universe, and were thus proved wrong.<br />And he said it in a way that suggested atheist scientists were involved in a plot, thrust onto the american people, and how great was it that christian scientists could show us the truth........that the moon also was only some 5 thousand years old.<br />And the whole room nodded in agreement. And my mouth dropped open, and my face almost shot off the top of my shoulders, and I started raving about what idiocy they were spreading, and they were all just standing there looking at me, and, well.............<br />That's when I knew that this country was different.<br />That somehow the America of the 40's and 50's, where people from all parts of the continent looked aspirationally for smart - not smarts, for people of intellect and sophistication to role model (see cary grant, katherine hepburn, audrey hepburn, ec..) - not scorn and denegrate society's icon's and somehow make them out to be agents of evil. Now it seems that ruralizing american society, and knowledge base, is the fastest way to moral certification. Science and knowledge be damned!<br /><br />Well, the country terrifies me.<br />School standards mortify me.<br />Spelling, grammar, just to be passingly adjusted for, has me wondering if America knows where it's next great authors, and scientists, and leaders with real greatness are going to appear from?<br /><br />So, debate global warming? Go ahead. You are the last generation who will be able to do so intelligibly and are rapidly abandoning your futures to work-ethic-only inspired development. Definitely not the clever country.<br /><br />And this is very clearly a political position in this country.<br />And very very quickly, becoming a cultural one.<br /><br /><br />Sincerely<br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />edited for purposes of clarifying it was my wifes' sisters' boyfriend, and I was not allowing my wife a boyfriend on the side!!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>The internet wasn't invented. It was always there. Al Gore simply discovered it. Too bad he wasn't smart enough to teach Floridians how to count. But Bush was against education.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Do your homework, well travelled, learned colleague. The lumber industry with all of the media inspired clear cutting and destruction of old growth forests hype, has not had a sufficiently negative impact on the stand of trees in our land as has the positive impact of our brave forest firemen in curtailing the spread of these natural destructive (and creative) infernos. You see? 150 years ago we couldn't stop a forest fire. They all were left to burn out. Now we deliberately burn selective forests to optimize their health.<br /><br />We have more trees now than ever before. And our forests are managed. There is more wisdom here than meets the eye of a casual observer. Or maybe Im wrong.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well done Daniel. Now we're cooking. I agree with everything you said. This is a country that fears Darwin's evolution theories and wants schools to balance their lessons by including the bible as another possible explanation for how the planet evolved. That tells you an awful lot right there. I guess if Adam and Eve were the first inhabitants of earth then Abner Doubleday did invent baseball (see, I got us back topic).

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>So Al Gore was kind of the DeSoto of the internet. But somebody had to invent it. Wasn't software and hardware invented? To add, Bush isn't against education for America's youth; he just has an aversion to educating himself.

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>Barry, I was kidding. Gore always was what he is today. He didn't invent anything of value, nor has he discovered anything of note.<br /><br />And as far as Intelligent Design vs. Evolution: they can peacefully co-exist. One does not have to exclude the other.

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Posted By: <b>Enright, Daniel</b><p>No Gil, again you are just wrong.<br />There are not more trees on this land than ever before.<br />Wherever concrete and brick and steel covers the earth, before - there were trees and plants and grasses.<br />Where fires used to burn huge swathes of land, those trees were GENETICALLY EVOLVED through NATURAL SELECTION to have seed waiting in the earth for just such events, and trees sprouted anew in near no time.<br /><br />Firefighters? Well, who's going to argue firefighters are great? The rest is just mumbo jumbo.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But they pretty much contradict each other. That's like saying the earth is round but it is also square.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Actually for those who must know the answer - the internet was "invented" by the US government. More specifically by the US military as a means of communication in the event of a Russian nuclear attack on the US.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Josh- that sounds reasonable. It happened during the Clinton administration, so Gore must have been once of its first adherents. I think when he is asked about it, he doen't take credit for its invention. But he was one of the first to recognize its amazing potential.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Actually, while the internet as we know it took off during the Clinton Administration, the internet as the government knew it had been in development since the 50s or 60s and live since the late 60s early 70s.

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>I was waiting for evolution to be mentioned. As you say Barry it amazing the amount of fear and anger (mostly in the USA, this is not a problem in most other countries) that is conjured by the mere word. My graduate area of training was animal behavior/ecology. My major was Biology/Environmental Policy. I teach in the public school system in Ohio, which is often not equated with the Bible belt. However, I have been verbally attacked over the last fifteen years by fellow students, parents, and my own students (most recently by a girl in May in my Env. Science course who told me I would rot in hell for teaching that the world was older than 5,000 years). Evolution is threatening to many, but it makes alot of sense to most people who are willing to attempt to understand the theory. God and Evolution are not mutaully exclusive (many creationists have insisted that there is no way that I can believe in both God and Evolution) as I am a very religious person as are many other scientists. To be quite honest, I have never tried to convert students or any other people, I am just teaching the science. I am a strong believer that each person is entitled to his/her beliefs. And Gil, I agree that the earth has the capacity to heal itself and will withstand industrialization, I just don't think that our species will be here to witness that healing.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>John- My brother is the head of the biology department in a private school in California, and he has to deal with exactly the same issues. He has been told in no uncertain terms that he has to let the students know that there are other possible explanations to the theory of evolution, and he is privately very unhappy about it. And he teaches in a religious school (Jewish) so the pressure is even greater. I am not religious at all- I think the bible is a wonderful book that should be read and cherished by whomever wishes to do so, but I do not personally believe in it. And as much as I hate to say it, I don't think we are on this planet forever. Didn't Stephen Hawking just say that he only sees civilization lasting another 100 years or so. The world is very dangerous and we are destroying it in many ways. Might even be a good reason for everyone to sell their baseball cards before it is too late.

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Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>Inmy profession, which has been historically based on science, science has been all but disregarded. Primarily my job is to take care of patients, but I am in a constant battle to "take care" of insurance companies, drug companies, hospitals, attorneys, employers, etc. who act as though their interest supercede those of my patients. When the hard science of a certain drug or treatment takes a backseat to its cost, lobbyist interest, insurance contracts, competitor sponsored "studies", etc. the patients suffer.<br /><br />Our "standards of care" (in medicine)are not based on true science unless of course you consider economics a true science. Our people are on more pharmaceuticals, have more tests, and suffer more than ever before. This is driven by physicians who feel the need to keep patients ill to maintain their incomes. There is essentially no economic incentive to keep patients healthy in this environment. Sad but true. <br /><br />The problem with this country is no secret...we are run by big business(religion is big business, too).<br /><br />My personal belief....any physician who buys in is going staight to the center of hell.

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Posted By: <b>Enright, Daniel</b><p>Hey Barry, to tie in multiple threads.......<br />As I don't plan on selling my baseball cards, and will strictly forbid their sale for at least 2 generations in my will ( <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> wish I knew how to put in proper smily faces), I'm wondering if I could get the grading card companies to list my name on the flip as "The enright collection - last to ever own this card!". As paper will survive quite an increase in the earth's temperature, I'm thinking I could live in perpetuity in the provenance.......

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Daniel- not a bad idea, you could give it a try. And for Darren, I made an observation just the other day. As I am someone who probably spends a little too much time in front of the TV, I've noticed just an endless number of commercials for prescription medication. That is something that you never saw a few years ago. How many zillions are these pharmaceutical companies making? I hear terrible stories about doctors who are pressured to write prescriptions for drugs that aren't necessarily best but they are forced to by the drug companies, pretty much what you are saying.

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Posted By: <b>PStratton</b><p>I vote for a monthly "delete" thread. Doc's comments are both enlightening and frightening. I think it takes a big pair to say what he said. I personally think those doctors who take advantage of their patients more monetary gain should be "teabagged".<br /><br />Global warming, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Lebanon, etc...anyone want to buy my old trees(baseball cards) before it's too late.

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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Global Warming and the downfall of intellect:<br /><br />Global Warming: <br /><br />Gil - the theory is not just put out there on the basis of climatological statistics and observations of current temperature. Of course temp cycles go in millenia, and knowing what has happened in the last few hundred years does not reflect these long cycles. BUT. The mechanism for the temperature change has been both proven and demonstrated via chemistry and physics. That makes it different. It is not statistical speculation, it is the statistical projection of the results of a physically proven process. This thing is unfolding, not already here. It is an evolving process, not an event to wait for. Processes that develop slowly are marked by instances of forward and back, up and down, and either can be found in any particular place at different times. So observations that it is a hot summer are no more relevant than observations that the forestry industry seems ok. But none of that changes the fact that it is inevitable unless we change the processes that are causing it.<br /><br />Daniel's profound words on the ruralization of America, the downplaying of science and intellect and the equality of opinions regardless of foundation:<br /><br />Reminded me of this quote from H.L. Mencken. I believe it was in the 20's.<br /><br />"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."<br /><br />Have at it guys!<br /><br />Joann<br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Oh, and Gil.<br />How many trees used to cover ground now cleared for agriculture?<br /><br />Well may we rape the earth because we make choices that place our whims and lifestyles above all else.......lets just not bull**** about it along the way.

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Daniel and dd, nicely put. You each have pieces of the puzzle. The problems with this country--ALL of them--should be placed squarely at the feet of the fascist pigs who have been in charge of it for the last six years: an unholy alliance of big business, big oil and religious zealots. The business lobbies have cleverly manipulated the religious masses with promises of social measures and idiotic "threats" like gay marriage (seems to me if you really want to stop homosexual acts, let them marry; marriage sure as hell stops heterosexual sex <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ) to ram through candidates who don't give a crap about them and who are only in place to fatten the wallets of their corporate sponsors. What has happened, as we all know, is that the country has been devastated through a regressive tax policy, ridiculous increases in corporate welfare, a backfired war, crippling increases in foreign debt and national debt as a result of conceptually flawed free trade ideas (you can't trade freely and fairly with a country that has slave labor camps and no effective commercial laws), repeals of critical environmental standards, and general incompetence and graft. IMHO the most important American value is the right to be left the *&*& alone except when absolutely necessary and the corresponding rights of freedom from government interference in matters of personal belief, religion, speech and privacy, and the pack of crooks and idiots running the government today regularly violate those core values. As far as religion and science go, I can understand our friends' amazement at the regressive, illogical thinking that so many espouse in this country. Ignorance, stupidity, xenophobia, racism, simplistic answers to complex questions, and pure wishful thinking about a golden past that never existed, all have ready audiences in the USA and always will. That they have been exploited so successfully for political gain (and will be so exploited in the future) is shameful. I fear for the future when I read cases like Hamdan (the recent Supreme Court ruling on the Gitmo kangaroo courts) and see any justices stand up for the shameful system in use there. Read The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn; the courts set up at Gitmo by the Bush administration could be taken straight out of the Soviet playbook. No one wants to coddle terrorists, that's not what the objections to the treatment of the prisoners is about, despite the blather from noted junkie Rush and his ilk. Our country has at its core a respect for individuals and individual rights borne of experiences with totalitarian government (imperial England's Star Chamber, for example: Charles I used the Court of Star Chamber as Parliamentary substitute during the eleven years of Personal Rule, when he ruled without a Parliament. Charles I made extensive use of the Court of Star Chamber to prosecute dissenters, including the Puritans who fled to New England. In the Star Chamber the council could inflict any punishment short of death, and frequently sentenced objects of its wrath to the pillory, to whipping and to the cutting off of ears. With each embarrassment to arbitrary power the Star Chamber became emboldened to undertake further usurpation. The Star Chamber finally summoned juries before it for verdicts disagreeable to the government, and fined and imprisoned them.); we are not supposed to refuse people hearings where the evidence against them is presented and prevent anyone from saying otherwise. Scalia, Thomas and Alito ought to be ashamed of themselves for voting to allow these practices to continue. <br /><br />And stop bidding up all the cards I want, damn it!

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>tell how us you really feel--I hate it when I have to read tea leaves to figure out where someone stands!

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Was that one long sentence, or did I miss the punctuation? But as a kindred spirit, I'm as fed up as you are. So why do we keep putting these incompetent people in office? Don't we ever learn a lesson? Not to suggest anyone could correct all the problems we have today, but at least we know in two and a half years all these bozos will be gone. My worst fear is that there isn't anyone more competent to take their place, and that nobody will ever get us out of this absolutely worthless war in Iraq. This will go on even after Bush leaves office. And kids are getting killed and maimed for no reason whatsoever- no, I don't feel any safer having them over there. We aren't fighting terrorists, we are breeding them. There is more terrorism in the world today than in 2001, and with no end in sight. Very sad state of affairs. What's the solution? How about another tax break for the rich.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'm just intersted in hooking up with one eyed, left handed, albino, midget, rastafarian eskimo that can trim a bansai tree.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>If every person in the world would stand in a box 2 feet by 1 foot wide and 6 feet tall, you could stack the whole world in a cube with sides 3/4 of a mile long.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I think you just found the answer to all the world's problems. Why didn't I think of that?

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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Eric<br /><br />I'm 6' 4". What would happen to me in such a cube?<br /><br />Max

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Posted By: <b>PStratton</b><p>Gasonline? More like a nuke Warshawlaw. Wasn't it Clinton who opened up trade with China? ...and maybe if Slick had done his job when the WTC was bombed the first time then we wouldn't be where we are now. To be honest with you if the Democrats came up with some solutions they might actually win an election. Instead you have Nancy Pelosi using flag draped coffins of our soldiers in her friggin commerials. How sick is that?

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>So, this is what could happen if Leon would let us go off topic. I agree that although most viewpoints and subjects are interesting, and of merit (especially that of Jay Behrens); this type of conversation is better left to a different forum.<br /><br />Joann: thank you for a well thought out response. At no point was it my intent to convey that global warming is a false concept. Actually, my belief is that it is an unproven theory, and one that currently can not be proven. I do not believe, however, that laboratory simulations are necessarilly applicable to the real world. And simply verifying a mechanism does not establish that it is in play.<br /><br />E, Daniel: I find your post devoid of fact and attempting to refute mine with an apparent labyrinth of seeds and asphalt seems pointless. However you did make one clear contention: "No Gil, again you are just wrong." My response is - when was I wrong before? And what am I wrong about now? If you disagree with my tree count, please identify yours, if it is something else, please say so.<br /><br />Barry: A creator could include evolution in his plan. And just because things naturally evolve, it does not mean that there was not an initial source for all things.<br /><br />Edited to remove an extra not<br /><br />Whew. Where is Net 54? It is getting hot in here. Didn't I see another (available) Delete thread? Maybe that one can be my Fortress, and I can come here when I don't want Solitude.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I love you Adam and Barry, want to move to Mass. and get married? Oops, too late!<br /><br />I agree with all you have written, and can't help but feel there is a chicken and the egg thing happening here on a sociological level - to have allowed this type of government, and keep it governing........<br />How is it that instead of wanting people smarter than themselves to make huge decisions on monumental historical paths, so many americans would prefer someone who sounds and understands these myriad issues no better than themselves?<br />And how do they sleep at night knowing good ole uncle geeeeorge is at the helm, who they've never heard speak an intelligible sentence in their life?<br />And I truly don't think I'm being all that political here - I would take anyone, anyone, from the Republican party over this bumbling yokel, and NEARLY anyone from the democrats.......<br /><br />(Sorry Hillary, I just can't get a fix on what you really believe in....)

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>This should be a landmark thread for her to post a psychedelic novel on who knows what! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Most insteresting of threads...<br /><br />1) <br /><br /><img src="http://www.gambits.com/childers/gore-convention-kiss.jpg"><br /><br />2) Former Can't Miss New York Yankees prospect Brien Taylor is 34 now, and he lives at the end of the road named for him, with his parents, Willie Ray and Bettie. The trailer he was raised in has been replaced with a two-story brick and frame home, the House that Brien Built with the record $1.55 million bonus he got from the Yankees. He also bought a black Mustang 5.0 back then, a car that is still on the road. Otherwise, evidence of his long-ago windfall is in scant supply on Brien Taylor Lane, where the cab of a tractor-trailer is sunk into marsh grass and vines, and the yard is strewn with old cars and a heap of rusted lawnmowers. Brien Taylor used to throw heat. Now he lays bricks, working with his father, earning $909 per month, according to financial records filed in a child-support application. He has five daughters and wants to live his life and prefers not to answer any questions, about then or now. When he finds out it's a reporter calling, he hangs up.<br /><br />3) Polar bears in the southern Beaufort Sea may be turning to cannibalism because longer seasons without ice keep them from getting to their natural food, a new study by American and Canadian scientists has found. Environmentalists contend shrinking polar ice due to global warming may lead to the disappearance of polar bears before the end of the century.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BARRY S....old friend....I must correct your comments on your post (1:36 PM).<br /><br />The Pentagon started inventing the "internet" in the 1980's as another "tool"<br />to fight the Commies in the old U-S-S-R.<br /> <br />Reagan brought down the the decadent Soviet Union (without firing a single bullet).<br /> And, consequently, Russia and the Iron Curtain were freed during 1989 to 1991.<br /><br />Clinton's presidency was Jan 1993 to Jan 2001....SO THE INTERNET WAS NOT INVENTED....<br />during the Clinton's term. And, Mr Gore had absolutely nothing to do with it.<br />Many, many hardware and software Engineers dilligently worked day and nite to<br />perfect it during the 1990's. However, if you feel it's necessary to attribute credit<br /> to one individual, it is Bill Gates and Microsoft.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lowe</b><p> Reminds me of Ground Hog Day <br /><br /> Reminds me of Ground Hog Day<br /><br /> Reminds me of Ground Hog Day <br /><br />Jeff

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Posted By: <b>Steve M.</b><p>Daniel:<br /><br />I think there are enough lawyers on the board who will tell you that your scheme is violative of the ancient and honored Rule Against Perpetuities.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Wow- I thought I said more inflammatory things that you would nail me on. Ted and I made a pact a few years ago not to talk politics, because we don't agree on almost anything. It's helped us stay good friends. But I accept your position here- I really didn't know who started the internet; I am learning all about it on this thread. What's most amazing is Leon still hasn't pulled the plug. I guess he is letting us all vent what's on our minds. One day a year I guess is fine.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>T Rex - almost correct. They government started researching/creating the internet in the late 50s or early 60s. A far more primative version of the internet went live in the late 60s or early 70s.