Horizontal t206's
 

Anyone know how many there are off the tops of their heads? I know there are these 6 but I'm not terribly familiar with the set and don't know if I missed any.

Birmingham, Cleveland
Mullin, Detroit
Murphy, Phila Amer.
Pattee, Brooklyn
Pelty, St. Louis Amer.
Powell, St. Louis

I believe some consider the Dunn, Baltimore a horizontal card. However the six you mentioned are the accepted ones.

I consider Dunn a vertical card when buying one and a horizontal one when I sell one:D

(Though I have never done either. I still need him:eek:)

So true. +1

Dunn is a vertical card.

some consider Dunn horizontal but the 6 in the op are the only six horizontals in the set.

Yes Dunn is a Vertical card... just having a little fun.

Thanks. I gather from comments that the horizontals carry a premium?

I think they carry a small premium but not much. The Pattee is a 150 only subject and it's a beautiful card so it usually has a little more of a premium over the others. At least that's my observation.

AndyH

Pelty is also a 150 only

I find the Dunn to be tricky. It sure feels like a horizontal to me. It seems like he is diving for a ball. I know I have never caught a pop up with the glove opening facing me. Maybe he is pulling an Andruw Jones basket catch?

I would be curious to hear some of the expert opinions on this one.

I believe the Shannon card is the same pose with a vertical background on it. I'm on my phone right now so I can't post a pic of it.

AndyH

Yes thank you. And another beautiful card.

AndyH

Easy way to distiguish
 

the six horizontal cards all have a horizon line in them. Therefore, you know which way to turn it.

https://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan...zontalt206.jpg

TED Z

Thanks for the scans, Ted. Beautiful.

I think these are my next project. I currently own zero T206s and would like them represented in my collection while keeping the group small and focused. I have always had a thing for horizontal cards in otherwise vertical sets.

Anyone have any information on the horizontals, like why these players were selected?

Looking at photos of a person diving for a ball, the player's non glove hand is bracing for the fall (instinct) not ready to help the glove as Dunn's hand is doing. Yet if you look at the willie may's basket catch (who would compare it to Andruw Jones:p) you can see the glove would face you and your other hand would be helping the glove accept the ball.

http://bmwcards.com/img/full/1909_19..._baltimore.jpg
http://reds.enquirer.com/img/photos/...800griffey.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FNndI0BvPN...eries_mays.jpg

I do believe, however, that the source picture has been tilted slightly, as was done with the Bender (http://www.t206themonster.com/T206-Bender.html)

if you're a demented fisherman...dunn is horizontal...otherwise...he's obviously vertical!!!!

That was a solid line of thinking on your part. Very nice. :)

I hate to bump an old thread, but I was looking through some T206s, came across Dunn and wondered if this could have been a horizontal? I tried to search first to see if it had ever been discussed and stumbled across this thread.

From Google: When he was nine, a boxcar ran over his left arm while playing at a local railway. He was told by doctors that his arm had to be either amputated or risk death. He declined an amputation, but his arm was left crippled from above the elbow and couldn't lift the arm above his neck.

If the card is to be considered a vertical, his arms are clearly above his neck which would make no sense. Therefore, I'm of the opinion that he is diving for a ball and the card is a horizontal. I know some (maybe most) will disagree, but it is a possibility.

Thoughts?

I can see how this could sway either way, but every time I look at it, I see a horizontal picture...just doesn't sit well with me from the upright position.

And to be honest, I'm not sure how anyone could be definitive on either pose...

I think of it and believe it is a a vertical pose until I see the card positioned horizontally.

Does anyone know of a picture used in the artwork?

Now there is a project for someone... Find the original photo used for the dunn
pose... Then it can be put to rest once and for all that this is a vertical card!!:p

You don't even like 206's...stay out!!! :p;)

If nothing else, go by the horizon factor in the known 6. If this card was meant to be a horizontal I believe they would have painted in a horizon! The set was put together w/ plenty of forethought.

Fred...I saw that post and it does make sense, but can/do we have to assume that is true? There are horizons in a lot of T206's, but there is no horizon on this card telling us that it is supposed to be horizontal or vertical. Either way, I do think the green background fits this card rather nicely...

Edited to add: I don't believe a horizon would compliment this card at all...I think the solid green background was done on purpose even if it is indeed a horizontal pose.

Hi Mike--
 

No indeed, we certainly do NOT have to assume that is true! It is just my belief that because the given 6 were so beautifully done w/ horizons to remove all doubt that any other cards MEANT to be horizontal would have had an equally complimentary horizon too!

The set is so beautiful & thoughtfully done that I don't believe the artists would have missed putting a horizon on Dunn! I'm done!:)

David James,

You just blew my mind ...

Horizontal t206's
 

Wow, you're easy! ;)


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Not if he were diving for a ball though. If he were diving for a ball, perhaps all you would see is green grass...just like the green background.

I know it has been mentioned in other threads about this but I think the picture is diagonal. I believe picture may have been treated the same way the bender from t206themonster.com.

http://www.t206themonster.com/Conlon...r_Pitching.jpg
http://www.t206themonster.com/Bender-Origin.jpg

So if you take what we know about the Bender tree picture and apply to how we know Mays did his basket catch you can see that his arms would be more out in front of him and not over his head as they appear on the card.

I do not think the Dunn was designed to be horizontal. if he were diving for the ball, his eyes would be looking higher to spot the ball and his head would be cocked a little higher too. also, as mentioned above, if it were truly meant to be a horizontal card, the artists would have added a horizon line to make it very clear to the viewer that it is in fact a horizontal card...not the case.

I will say this, if viewed vertically, his body angle is a little weird for an overhead catch...BUT, for reasons i listed above, i will still say it is not meant to be a horizontal card.

This strange angle of the body is explained by my hypothosis in my post.

Horizontal t206's
 

Looks like he's diving for a ball. The way his eyes are positioned and the position of his body...in the corner of the card. If he was meant to be vertical, I think it was poorly done.



I can't speak for everyone, but when you first picked up this card, tell me you didn't try to position it horizontally...that was my first reaction and to this day when I see the card, I always want to flip it sideways.



And if this card wasn't already labeled as a vertical pose, would you still hold your current stance...

I never...ever thought this card/pose was intended to be a horizontal one...ever! Until the question was raised on here years ago. I appreciate the tenacity...but it's meant to be vertical!

Yeah, me too.

If you look on eBay, there are a few that are displayed horizontally, so we're not the only ones who think so.

I'm with you again Mike. I totally agree. I always thought it was a horizontal!

Now I mean, Dunn could be hunched over, maybe? I don't know, but either way. ..

Or you could think of Dunn catching a fly ball, bending backwards a little. I mean, the position of the glove would probably not be correct, but maybe that was the way he caught fly balls?

I believe it to be definitely horizontal. Almost like he is sprinting in and catching a short fly ball or pop up. He is using two hands because all of the players at that time had to use two hands. The gloves back then didnt have the baskets or webs that they do today. Thus, he is running in and diving to catch a short fly ball or pop up. I think. Very interesting!

Looks vertical to me. It would make sense that the original picture would have him catching a pop up since Dunn's a pitcher and he's probably not diving for many fly balls.

As for the arm injury idea... I doubt he could stretch out like that if he couldn't lift his arm over his head.

Edit: Actually I guess he was no longer pitching in those years... still an infielder is more likely to be catching pop ups.

Although he mostly played the infield, he did play the outfield in the 1902 & 1904 (his last) seasons.

Presumably the original picture would date to his active days with Baltimore to be relatively current with the set. Of course, I don't know what position he played those years.

Not sure the artists always got glove positioning correct. Look at Sleepy Bill Burns with his glove on the wrong hand :)

The card does look cool as a horizontal but it always has been and always will be a vertical until someone finds the original photo and proves otherwise.

I found this old thread (poll) while actually trying to find more information on Google.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=116396

It's a little over 4 years old and I wonder if the consensus would still be the same today? Anybody want to start a new poll with only horizontal or vetical as being the only two choices (not the other three options in the original poll)?

In addition to pitching, he also played right field and shortstop.

Seems like his glove position is wrong for a fly ball. The ball would hit the heel and then hit him in the face. Not that I know from experience ......

Exactly. I spent a lot of time looking at Google images.

If you Google images of "catching fly ball" they all have one thing in common - the glove faces out (away from their body), not as the Dunn card shows where the glove is faacing in. That would not be the correct position to catch a fly ball.

However, if you Google images of "diving for catch" it shows images of players with the glove facing up or down, so he could definitley be diving for a catch, glove facing up.

It seems like everyone wants to overlook the possibility of it being a diagonal representation of the original picture.

I have been wondering if there has been a single picture of a diving catch prior to the web being put on the glove? I haven't seen one (that is not saying much as I am young and don't collect vintage photos). I have seen posed images on Old Judge, but those have always seemed more of sliding for a fast ground ball. Too me it seems that without the web of the glove a dive for a ball would not be the smarter move as I would assume the impact of the ground would knock the ball loose more times than not. Especially if you aren't going to brace for the fall as you would have to assume Dunn is not doing if you want to believe this is horizontal.

Again. I am not saying they didn't dive but I haven't seen evidence that they did.

Fly ball, He is setting up to make a basket catch. With soft hands, he is going to lower them and give with the ball. In the old days, basket catches were WAY more popular than they are today. This has always been my opinion.

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

When I read this thread this afternoon during lunch, I was in the horizontal camp. Now, after Andy reiterated about the odd tilt effect that the T206 artists sometimes employed, and after 10 minutes of playing around with photoshop, I can conclude that the original photo was most likely, almost definitely, a vertical shot of Jack Dunn getting ready to make a basket catch. The key was getting rid of the tilt effect, as shown in the Chief Bender card by Andy.

All I did was isolate Dunn from his T206 card, then I rotated Dunn clockwise maybe 20-40 degrees until his belt was basically horizontal (or at least until it looked normal) -- this removed the tilt. Due to the cropping of the T206 image, I had to (crudely) draw in a little bit of pants below Dunn's belt in the lower left, and also a bit of Dunn's elbow.

Once I had this image, I could view it both vertically and horizontally, and I think the the image looks MUCH more natural in the vertical position, as if Jack is getting ready to lower his hands to make a basket catch, as others have mentioned previously. When viewed as a horizontal, it just doesn't look right, and the arms simply don't look like he's naturally diving.

The first image with black background is original from the card, the 2nd image is vertical without the tilt, and for the 3rd image I simply rotated the 2nd image 90 degrees.

net54 is so cool :)

I'm convinced.

Good work, Chuck...looks convincing!

In my first post, I stated that if it was intended to be a vertical pose, it was poorly done...which it looks to be the case after Chuck's manipulations.

I believe that because of the poorly designed outlook of the card, making it hard to tell either way and without research, it still looks like it could be a horizontal pose :eek:

Here are a few points that make it believable:

-David had some good input, stating that Dunn could not extend his left elbow above his neck (I believe), so even if the position looked vertical, it could have easily been skewed because of his inability to extend further.
-The diagonal pose made pretty much everyone somewhat unsure because of the angle
-The solid green background does not signify whether it was vertical or horizontal

I was ready to reply and still be somewhat in the middle on this until I remembered the T206 below...it is the exact same pose, but centered...with a horizon. It seems that Dunn is in fact, supposed to be considered in a vertical pose.

Good job investigating until we found some solid ground to go on :)

Thanks, Mike.

Jim R. also made this post in the old thread David linked, showing another typical catch:

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...achmentid=6816



If the "T206" artist hadn't tilted the damn Dunn image on the card, we wouldn't even be having this discussion! :)

I totally agree and it definitely looks more clear now.

If I would have clicked on the link, maybe I would have figured it out sooner ;)

If only the artist straightened his pose out like you said... :cool:

Can someone please post pictures of Shannon, Bay, and Dunn side by side by side next to each other? I then want to give a simple (but maybe meaningless) argument that Dunn should be horizontal....

Definitely horizontal....

Getting overly scientific in our analysis of Dunn's positioning is a losing battle. Given the non-baseball-appropriate poses that are scattered throughout the set, it is a pointless exercise:.D

its quite possible the mechanics of baseball were not the same back then. lots of stuff has changed over time.

for example, nowadays everyone slides, even on seemingly routine fly balls, to help block the ball.

when was the diving catch started?

kevin

nice drawing Tony...looks more like you're "proving" diagonal than horizontal to me? But I agree that this discussion is another example of futile T206 over-analysis...paralysis!

And on that note...I'll shut up!!!!:D

Liar! ;)


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Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.



EDIT: Sorry I was posting my reply at the same time you decided to bow out of this conversation. It was not meant to pull you back in.

Thanks, Pete - I took Art class in 4th grade. I know that those legs do look so lifelike, but, just so that you guys don't get the wrong idea... those are not his real legs. I repeat, not his real legs!

I guess diagonal it is!

[QUOTE=
From Google: When he was nine, a boxcar ran over his left arm while playing at a local railway. He was told by doctors that his arm had to be either amputated or risk death. He declined an amputation, but his arm was left crippled from above the elbow and couldn't lift the arm above his neck.
[/QUOTE]

From this quote found on google (and available on Wikipedia), it seems to me that the photo that the artist worked from to create this card would have not shown him with his left arm above his neck (as per the vertical card position seems to suggest), as that would have been a physical impossibility for Jack Dunn due to his injury as a boy.

Wow, maybe the first time I've ever weighed in on a T206 topic….

In relation to the thread, I own four of the six agreed upon horizontals. Missing Mullin and Birmingham. At one time, I had a Birmingham acquired from Richard Gelman's Card Collector's Company in the late 1970s. Cost me 50 cents and had a great deal of scorching/fire damage to the edges of the card. In fact, when I removed the card from the mail package, about 1/8" of the right end of the card crumbled…. I later sold the card.

In the simplest terms: Look at the "B" on Dunn's sleeve. Look at the B vertically... Then again horizontally... It makes much more sense that this is a horizontal card.

Hold tight, Andy...don't let 'em sway ya!! :p

The point of this thread is not to necessarily sway anyone, but to try to figure out which pose seems more logical :)

The only reason we are having this friendly debate is because the card was done so poorly...giving us no indication either way, but I guess it is fun trying to figure it out.

I'm still leaning towards it being a horizontal. Had the image been printed like this, it wouldn't even be a discussion...

Either way, the card looks much better positioned in the horizontal position. I am not convinced it is supposed to be a vertical card, but I don't see any reason to beat it into the ground without any new evidence...could definitely go either way.

At this point, everything is just speculation...

The discussion would be "Why is Dunn the only upside down t206 card?"

These are the two keys for me... we already have evidence of a prior card being slightly rotated counterclockwise in the Chief Bender card. If you take the vertical pose of Dunn making a basket catch and rotate it a few degrees counterclockwise, you end up with the pose found on the T206 of Dunn.

In addition, we have numerous cards in the hobby of players making basket catches similar to the view of Dunn positioned vertically, yet we have no examples of cards from the era showing players making a diving catch.

Yes, we still have a shred of possibility that the original Dunn image was a diving catch with Dunn laying out horizontally, but SO much of the evidence points to the original image being a vertical Dunn making a standard basket catch.

Too late! Just beat it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B2wtC91_0U

Something to think about...

Let's say for arguments sake, Dunn is in fact in a vertical pose. However, can we argue that although it may be a vertical pose, it was meant to be looked at horizontally? I know I am not alone in my thinking that it looks a lot better horizontally.


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I can never assume intentions. For me though the card looks strange horizontal, but everyone can display as they like.

Whether you see the card as horizontal or vertical may never really be changed.

Sort of like Optical Illusions:
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.50068...144277&pid=1.7

Maybe this has been talked about already but - the cards from this set were all based off of photographs right? I'm not sure that camera technology such as telephoto lenses and fast shutter speeds were available in the early 20th century. The ability to capture an action shot of a player diving for a ball would have been difficult if not impossible.

Just a thought. I personally enjoy seeing the card displayed horizontally, I'm just not convinced that was the intention.

+1

Those old gloves had NO pocket. If you tried to catch a fly ball with your hands above your head, palm turned outward, the ball would bounce out of your glove. I would venture to say that 90% or more of popups in 1910 were basket catches. I could be wrong with that number, but certainly basket catches were the norm and over the head catches were by far the exception.

You folks are looking at this through 21st century eyes instead of 19th/early 20th century eyes. I am sure that any baseball fan who pulled this from a pack or kid who collected this in 1910 viewed this as a basket catch and didn't even consider it to be a diving catch. Jack Dunn is camped under a fly ball setting up to make a basket catch on his T206 card.

and who are we to argue/change what the kids/fans of the day saw when they viewed this card :p

This thread has me losing my mind. I have 5 Dunns sitting on my desk right now, all positioned at different angles, and have completely lost it. It's my opinion that the diagonal theory is probably correct, but that the original artist knew he'd be messing with all of us when he designed the card. Seriously though, by using the diagonal pose, it allows the artist to include more of his arms. If Dunn was physically unable to lift his arms high and they would have included a normal vertical image, his glove would be off the print area of the card. The distance from his right shoulder to the end of the glove is longer than the width of the print area. This is why they tilted the image to allow his full arms to be depicted.

[QUOTE=bn2cardz;1228184]
Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.QUOTE]



I had brought it up, but not for the sake of the Cameras (but I agree for that reason also). I really just can't imagine trying to dive for a ball with a finger glove and be expected to catch the ball. I would love to see a non staged photo of it happening. It would be a neat find.