It's now official - Mastro trimmed hisT206 Wagner
 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...0451--mlb.html

What a surprise.....

I'm still trying to figure out how in the world a PSA 5(MC) goes for $2.1 Mil. Makes you wonder what a legit PSA 8 would sell for....

Whats so pitiful is that some people are saying the card will go UP in value instead of down, because of it becoming the infamous trimmed Wagner. Geez.

It's like people collecting Black Sox cards, and to a lesser extent the villain Ty Cobb. People like controversy. It sells and people collect it.

Who advised him? Joe Orlando?

Spin.

Now how did it "pass" PSA without getting deemed trimmed altered?

+1, well said. Gandil sells fairly well it seems, and I think without the scandal, not so much

We'll see what he thinks when it becomes the first Wagner to take a loss in a public sale. If you are a baller kind of collector, writing checks with multiple commas, you want the best, not what used to be the best.

Maybe, and if he did he might be right. I don't condone the fraud with the trimming but it's still the best looking Wags in the hobby. I am still undecided if I think it's value has held. It certainly might have. It's hard to say.....

David Hall is now in an interesting position. He of the magnifying glass.

Best looking? Really? Every time I see that card now I'll think "crimininal", "fraud", "fake" and "trimmed" before "best looking" comes to mind.

You are entitled to your opinion but no matter what you say, what I said is true.

With each past sale, the new owners were certainly aware of the unconfirmed rumor it was trimmed. And they had the right to reject it as merely speculation.

Now it is no longer a rumor, it's a fact. If it comes up for sale, prospective bidders will know that. Will it affect the value? Perhaps a little, but not a lot. It very well may sell for more. Who knows? That's up to the bidders.

Inexperienced grader. :D

Think it'll go for more. It has a story...and what a story. It's not just one of the regular others that come up with every passing REA auction. Gretzky, trimmed, various lawsuits and court cases...it's like a crime novel.

If you have 2 million to spend on a card, it's not your last dollars anyway, and it's a/the storied Wagner. Think of the auction description book that'll be written to describe it and the stories you'll get to pass on at your next swank cocktail party.

People who purchase T206 Wagner's for 7 figures are a different breed then the rest of us.
If I spend $100 on a card and its deemed altered it keeps me up at night.
To Mr. Kendrick, its a nice card then brings him notoriety and the cost is pocket change to him.
Hell, he's picked up free agents for several million who's ended up being worthless and released.
Not saying Bill Mastro's trim job is justified or condoned, but Mr. Kendrick may look at the $2+ million he spent differently.
He's got exposure and an iconic card and as Leon states, a great looking one at that.

The Cobb/Edwards Wagner has a story too....how much would it sell for?

I believe the main issue for us smaller people who can't afford million dollar cards and this hobby as a whole is how many other cards are in holders that don't match the card? How did it get slabbed that way? If it was a collaboration between Mastro and PSA/Orlando will it get admitted to???

Barry,

I 100% agree with yours and Leon's statement. My thoughts are this: I think the value will remain flat or maybe decline a little IF it is kept in the same PSA holder of a NM-MT 8. We all, I think, should concur that it should reside in a PSA "Authentic" holder and IF that happens (which never will happen, IMO) then the value would drop dramatically.

Greg

Well said Barry, everyone who was a potential buyer of this card, is going to research the history on it. I doubt, most likely anyone would throw 2mill on a card, or any item for that matter, without researching it.

Yes. Now he has something else to talk about at the Country Club. He already owned the most famous card ever, now he owns the most infamous famous card ever.

Now that's an ez one!:rolleyes:

That's the whole point right there, it's infamous and controversial because of the story behind the PSA 8 slab that it resides in......change it to the correct "A" slab and the allure will all but disappear.

agreed...future owners of this card won't be collectors, just like the past owners. value of this card won't suddenly have a big drop. it will still be the highest priced wagner. and if kendrick don't get his price, he'll just keep it for his son to play with.

I'd just keep it. Gorgeous card either way.

But as I said several months ago, in a poll, what if (and this won't happen) PSA kept the same grade and flip but put the qualifier (handcut) on it? It would be what it is and still have the grade!! Personally, that is what I think should happen but it's not up to me AND I am in the minority (as usual).

Minority of one i think. :D:D

That PSA 5 at 2.1 million buy couldn't have come at a better time. Don't they now own the highest legitimate, non altered Wagner now? It's now king of the hill.

That book The Card, really hit the nail in the head. I have a feeling PSA is next....

I don't think people collect Ty Cobb for being a villain, but for being a Great ballplayer!!!!!

Joe

C'mon Peter, it was more than that. If I remember correctly (don't challenge me as I will find it) there were about 22% of the respondents that agreed with me. So there was some agreement, just not a lot. :o

A 5mc
 

Is not king of the hill on wagners.

I couldn't agree more. I seem to remember stories from people who saw this card pre-PSA slab, and commented that it was larger then than it is now. Whose to say it wasn't scrap or handcut originally?

Rich

Well, thank you. Whenever I need to know absolute truth, I know who to go to.

There is a PSA 5 with no qualifiers, but I for one don't care about qualifiers but others may. So the 5mc is at best tied for the best unaltered or in second place.

I posted about this in the thread where people were trying to guess the price that the 5mc would go for.

The PSA 5 without qualifiers is the best Wagner (that we are aware of) out there, no question. The recently auctioned Wagner would get the #2 spot.

BTW, I see that a PSA 1 Wagner owned by Charlie Sheen is up for sale at Robert Edwards Auctions. I'd take that one over the trimmed PSA 8. :p

x 2

For the record, Orlando did not start working at PSA until years after that Wagner was graded. It was the first card PSA graded.

As for the best unaltered Wagner, I think the PSA 5 (not the Jumbo PSA 5 MC) and three raw Wagners in private hands are the top candidates. The Jumbo would probably rank around #5 IMHO. It is a phenomenal card, but there are a few that are slightly better in my opinion, mostly due to not having the angle cut and top of the the adjoining card on the sheet showing.
JimB

Jim, notwithstanding his non-involvement I suspect Joe Orlando has known the truth about the card for some time, but that's just a personal opinion. It will be very interesting to see what David Hall -- who was there -- directs PSA to do now.

+1

Why on earth would someone not have their raw Wagner T206 graded and slabbed?

If you know it's real and have no intention of selling it, why bother?

If you are not going to sell it, and are not a slab collector, why on earth WOULD you?

I think the current owner of the Mastro Wagner got it right.

then take the jumbo wagner and make that one an (8) hand cut too, or a 9?. the mc qualifier would even go away. you can't just start doing that and changing the rules because a trimmed card looks good.

everyone would start claiming their card came from a sheet and how do you prove it didn't? how do you prove that the gretzky wagner came from a sheet. prove it, not just conjecture. then the sheet mate plank would get a handcut too. instead, it resides in an A holder (trimmed) and the wagner doesn't? psa had too much to gain with debut card #1.

The finest untrimmed Wagner is owned by one of our board members and he has no intention of ever getting it professionally graded. He's simply not interested and doesn't care.

Any pic ?


It is verry cool that 3 great condition Wagner is still Raw in private collection

Any pic of these 3 Raw Wagner ?

Exactly, Joe is what in his late 30's? That puts him around 16-17 years old when the card was graded. He was still popping pimples and learning how to drive when that decision was being made. A little too much emphasis on Orlando when it comes to PSA's role in the card, lol.

Nelson- I believe he has posted it before. Also, it is pictured in an archive of T206 Wagners that I of course have no idea how to find.

Is it known who exactly was in the room when the card was graded? Was Mastro there??

This is the image Barry's referring to:

Personally, I have no problem with that Wagner designated an "8" - let's face it, it is a near mint card. Trimmed or not. There have always been rumors surrounding that card and I personally have no problem making it an exception to the rule.

It's interesting how all of this has played out. For years we were told that there were original photos of the untrimmed Gretzky Wagner, yet no one would post them. Then a book comes out with 'the picture', and it's horrible and you still can't tell :confused:

Given that Mastro has now admitted to the trimming, will we finally get to see a clear, color photo of what it looked like before?

Why? Because no one lives forever and you can't take it with you. Well, you could but it would be stupid.

I am sure the folks who own raw Wagners never thought of that, but perhaps they are reading this thread and will be grateful for your input. :rolleyes:

What does life or death have to do with getting a card slabbed? Have we slipped that far?

I am open to counselling these poor souls. Obviously they need my help. The first step is admitting it. I'm here for them. ;)

That makes two of us who should not have bothered to respond. :)

Thanks for posting it Corey. A truly spectacular card.

Beautiful.

Ricky Y

wow nice Wagner. The owner of that card is a member here ?

you are commenting to him (not me)

Oh ok !
Thanks Leon ! Amazing card !

Any cool past stories behind this Wagner ?

That's a beauty!!!

How did you come across this card?

That's my question too. PSA looses a lot of credibility in my eyes ( even though I buy raw ) and I would think the collectors who only collect PSA or graded cards have to ask the same question. Do ANY of the grading companies measure the cards for correct size or do cards just pass an eye test? Grading is all over the place. Look at any PSA 5 and you will find card quality of all sorts. Yes, I resent the grading companies as a contributor to driving up the prices of cards. Before the grading companies, the cards we purchased had to pass a test, a test of our own eyes. This Wagner should be graded Authentic, evidence of trimming ( or trimmed ) therefore reducing the price / value of the card significantly. I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.

I'm curious if there is any legal recourse against PSA.[/QUOTE]

Lawyers who are viewing this thread please correct me if I'm wrong..

If Orlando filed for a case, PSA will only be involved if proven to knowingly grade the card with the knowledge of Mastro's trimming. PSA is not liable if they did not know Mastro trimmed it because their duty is to grade/authenticate a card in a reasonable manner. If somehow it is proven PSA breached this duty then they are with recovering the damages. But in the end it's an opinion service, and their reputation is the only thing that will be effected until proven otherwise.

just pass an eye test most of the time, on psa's site, they answer the question if they put a ruler to every card, and the answer is no.

Wow !!! Beautiful Wagner !!!

Thanks for posting that-

Sincerely, Clayton

I don't understand the I don't care about
 

Qualifiers post. If not for the qualifier the card would be a 3 at best. Several examples in this neighborhood. If this were not as Wagner but say a 1954 aaron it would probably sell for less than a 3. The grade of a card is effected by imperfections to disregard them is laughable in my opinion.

Mastro
 

I know that when I first got back into the hobby in the late 90's early 2000's everyone loved them some Mastro and hated Broadway Rick on the message boards, Now, you guys want to crucify Mastro. We want Barabus or Broadway Rick. It's just a hobby, or should be just a hobby.

I love everyone. My analyst said I had to.

"What about Hitler," I said, "Do I have to love Hitler?"
"Hitler's dead," she said.
"What about Travis Bickle? Do I have to love Travis Bickle?"
"That's a character from a movie. He's not a real person. Remember what I said about the people in movies? Remember we talked about that last session?"
"Oh yeah, I forgot . . . Maybe you'd better explain it to me again."

You are right Barry, they had to know about the unconfirmed rumors- but, I'm sure they also had to put at least a little faith behind the grade it was given. Had it not been graded an 8, I highly doubt the card would have sold for as much as it did.

There's no doubt it is a beautiful card. But, I don't think it is any different than any other T206 that's been trimmed; re-holdered with an "A" trimmed. I don't think it would be right to term it "handcut", like a printers scrap card or something.

He claims he trimmed the "sides"? I wish we could get more details. Sounds like it may have been a strip? Or was it trimmed all the way around? If so, maybe a sheet? I hope the judge makes him explain in detail :)

Sincerely, Clayton

As a lawyer I think that PSA is in a sticky situation. They face some liability because the grader said that he knew the card was trimmed, but still gave it a numerical grade. The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.

Another intersting question is what if any liability they face for allowing the card to remain encapsulated at this point. The cards encapsulation is their seal of approval that the card is an 8 - now it has been legally established that it is altered, thus an A. I am not sure of their policies but I would imagine that there is a provision, or should be, that allows them to buy back cards that were fraudulently encapsulated and remove them. Again issue stems from the knowing encapsulation of the fraudlent card - I would love to see the Justice Department's position.

I don't care about qualifiers. What is hard to understand?

I have never cared about cards that are centered or not centered (If anything I prefer the non centered cards). I have posted about this on other threads, it isn't just regarding the Wagner. I also know I am in the minority, but every one has preferences in this hobby and factory caused flaws don't bother me. It is the after factory flaws that I want to be graded.

Not all qualifiers are factory flaws
 

So what is do they bother you or not? You say one thing than say another? Sorry but trying to pretend flaws dont matter in value is so far from fact that it makes me laugh. Also the fact is this card is not a 5, so if there were no qualifier this would be a 3 at best, probably worse to pretend otherwise is laughable, so you cant try and say this is the highest graded because your wrong. How can you pretend a flaw is irrelevant to value? The facts are flaws are how cards are graded if this card was in fact an ex card the previous owner would have had it crossed to SGC, it was not an EX card so was therefore sold in the holder it was. Im not sure some understand qualifiers its not like they mean the card is this grade because of this flaw it means the card would be this grade but has one such major flaw that it is far worse than the assigned number but has most of the qualities of said grade.

I find it interesting that a while back in the Black Swamp find, PSA realized they mislabeled the wrong Wagner cards and aggressively fixed the problem before any sale was made. See this thread:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=153481

Now that a indisputably trimmed, multi-million dollar card has been sold and their liability is now enormous, PSA's silence is deafening.

If you look at PSA's Sport Collecting Glossary, here's what they have for "trimmed"


A card that has been altered by cutting or shaving the edges. The most obvious reason for this is to improve the condition of corners, by removing the worn areas. Cards are also trimmed to correct centering problems. Cards that have been trimmed have very little value.

See this link:

http://www.psacard.com/Resources/Lingo/T


I also now understand the current owner doesn't even seemed bothered about the card being trimmed.

This hobby (or what ever it is) never ceases to amaze me.

[QUOTE] The real question is will Kendrick, the only person with standing to bring a claim, sue the company. The article seems to indicate that he will not.
[QUOTE]

I don't think that statement is accurate at all. IMO, those with standing to sue are everyone who got bid up and purchased the card based upon the false impression that it was actually an 8. The grader's statement makes it real ugly -- sort of in the category of fraud per se. In that regard, PSA certainly can't claim that it didn't expect buyers to rely upon the grade it gave because reliance upon the grade is precisely what it has been selling since day one.

Every purchaser who spent more than they would have had the true condition of the card been disclosed has a claim IMO. There may be defenses to the claim, like the Statute of Limitations, but I'm not seeing them working so well with respect to this particular card. It will be interesting to see what transpires.

Many collectors collect trimmed "A" cards because they can buy a card that looks like an 8 for way cheaper than what an actual 8 would cost.

How many collectors would buy a trimmed card graded an 8, knowing for a fact it was trimmed (so technically it's an "A") for 8 money?

If the owner doesn't care, and is just going to keep it, no problem there. I just don't see it retaining the price paid just because of the story behind it. Beautiful card, no doubt. But Mastro said he trimmed it. It's no longer a mystery.

Just my opinion-

Sincerely, clayton

Late breaking news:

Mastro's wife has now admitted she trimmed her wagner a couple of times, too.

Clayton,

Several years ago, my answer would have been none or next to none, but since then I've learned - particularly the ones of the PSA registry ilk: "the label lovers", my answer is a significant number of people. There are people who are well aware that they bought a significant number of doctored cards and they too seem unphased about it. I know it's twisted beyond any rational comprehension, but these people do exist and they impact the market significantly.

Kenny
 

Every prior purchaser sold it at a hefty profit. No damages, no claim. They benefited from the fraud on the back end.