'52 Topps Mick SGC 4 Fireworks - Hits $54,900
 

Anyone else watching the fireworks on this beauty? At first sight this card struck me as something really special. I'd prefer to look at this specimen over some in much higher grades. Congrats in advance to the collector who brings it home.

SGC 4 Mick

It's glorious!

I wonder if Ken knows the max bid?

And I thought I had a nice SGC 4.
Good to see SGC bringing in some escarole. Giving me hope when I sell mine.

There are just so few centered like that; always good to see collectors being all about the card. It's a beauty.

Any idea why that is graded as low as it is?

Looks beauty to me and I'm sure it will sell for large despite the rating.
Currently at $42,000 but imo, it should go for about double that based on what I have seen?

Mine isn't as nice top to bottom, but much nicer than most.


http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4u1edl2f.png

One of the better examples right there. Centering is great, and that color is so rich and deep. Fantastic piece. Must be a joy to look at that card.

The 2 at LOTG is worth noting, too.

Regarding the technical assessment of the SGC 4 at auction, it seems some surface scuffing on the left side is the cause. Certainly doesn't affect the eye appeal. Classic case of the rigid grading criteria, which I have always personally disagreed with-- they will hit a card for surface or corners or a micro wrinkle so hard, but a card can have ugly focus or tilt and still get a pretty high grade. Sometimes it's a bummer and sometimes it creates a great value for the collector, as in the case of this SGC 4. An uglier 7 would cost like 200k or some super high amount, and this '4' will probably sell for a bundle less.

To see that graded as a "4" gives me hope that maybe one day I'll be able to own a kick-ass '52 Mantle myself.

I agree, that card does look in great shape despite the slight scuffing. I am now realizing the term, "Buy the Card, not the case/slab in comes in"

If you look closer, i belive there some indention or crease on the left side/border. In 2 places. Above the bat and right at the logo box. You can see the differences there from where it crosses from the white border thru the black line and into the color backgrounds.
Then again, it may be print lines. Buts it looks like somethings there.

The scuffing or minor paper loss on the surface will be more evident if you hold it in your hand. The scanner won't always capture that properly. Mine does not have any scuffing issues :D

And yet your's graded the same?? This grading thing is hard to figure out at times, but then again, I am not a grader.

Not sure what mine would grade at? Likely a PR-1 or very slightly better.

The corners on mine prevent anything higher. Each card is different. The one going tonight is better centered top to bottom and better corners than mine. I can't deny that, but mine has different attributes (no scuffing, better color)

Yours is probably a 1 because of the paper loss, but I'm not a grader. Other members on here have much more knowledge to speak to that.
The Mays is extremely nice. I've seen your 52 collection. You need to send the big ones in to get them graded and "authenticated".

Both SGC 4s are phenomenal cards for the grade, is the bottom line. Personally I would prefer the one with the better color, but can't go wrong either way.

Well said Canocorn; one of the main aspects of collecting that can get lost is the fact that each and every card is individual and unique-- even cards that have been assigned the same technical grade by a grader. In fact, there can be an enormous difference in visual appearance (eye appeal) between two identically graded cards.

Meeting a new card is thus kind of like meeting a new person, I suppose with the important distinction that cards will always be less chafing than most humans, or at least bosses and wives ;)

And I agree with Peter that both 4s are amazing cards.

Right, and sometimes indentations are only visible at an angle and won't show on a scan. Matt you may recall the phenomenal 51B PSA 4 I was thinking of buying back over the summer == turns out that when my friend saw it in hand, it had a prominent indentation that did not show at all on the scan. While scan technology has greatly improved, there is still no substitute for eyeballing a card and flipping it around at various angles under a light.

If a lot of things get lost by using a scanner, why do they still scan cards? I would prefer to know what I'm getting before I buy. Just seems there has to be a better way.

Absolutely, Peter. In fact, thanks to buying from the same sellers over the years, often times I will pay to have them send me a card for an in-hand review. There is just no substitute for holding a card in-hand. Hence why I love shows, and had such a blast at The National. There are times when a card just looks so much more beautiful in hand than it does in the scan, times when the scan looks better, and then times when it's just about accurate. That first scenario is always such a thrill, when you get the card and smile and think, "WOW." It's even better when that WOW is followed by, "Damn, this thing looks better than the number on the flip! LOL!"

Scans to me are better than camera pics, so that (plus asking questions) is the best you can do in an imperfect world.

That makes sense. I read in another thread that your dpi should be different when scanning vintage and new cards. What's the consensus on that?

Yes, for sure I do, but I am still leery of sending them through the mail, and with our current CDN dollar's value, I am not willing to spend 100's more than I have to.

Peter, any thoughts off the top of your head what my card (the Mantle) would grade at?
Not going to hold you or anyone to your guesstimate, just looking for a ball park figure. (here's the back)

I'm more surprised by the 55 Clemente PSA 8 at almost 60k, and it's not even centered. I thought the market for this card was in the 30-35k range. Has it really changed that much in the last couple of months?

I expected 50-55k on the Roberto. A comparable 8 hit 44k at Goodwin in Nov, and the 9s have settled well into 6 digit range with back to back sales. When that happens the next grade down stands to get a big jolt.

I hope you're right. I think I'll sit on my 7 for a little while before I sell it. Maybe this jolt well transfer down another grade or two.

SGC 4 52 mantle currently at $54k.

Honestly, I am not surprised. Like what has already been mentioned, that is a great looking 4.

I am speechless.

Thanks for posting this thread Matty. I actually feel vindicated in a way, becuuse I held firm on my offers and people were beating me up because it's in an SGC holder and not PSA. I almost started to believe it. In a weird way I feel like my card gained $10k in value because of this auction. Yes, each auction is different and that card was a little nicer, but if I was thinking $30k, there is no reason mine can't be $40k..still $14k less expensive. And trending up, up, and away.

As Johnny Drama said in Entourage....VICTORY!!

There is a on-going SGC 7.5 in AH closing soon near 6k.
http://www.cleansweepauctions.com/im...te15con837.jpg

Received two random offers on my 311 in the last 12 hours. Alas that bad boy is going to my son. Though I suspect after I croak my brother is gonna try and get his hands on it!

that's cool mattyc...I also think what was thought as top top of the market ebay mantles RCs on ebay are getting lots of views now and offers.. if you click sold ebay tomorrow I bet you a few of the $10,000+ mantles have good chance to be sold by tomorrow.

like you said each auction is different if you are considering selling a 20k+ card..why not pay the 500 or whatever to get it into a PSA holder....the only way I think SGCs get top dollar on occasion is in the open auction market where there is real risk..unless there is a hidden reserve......even if PSA doesn't agree with the grade and you get it back..so what is 500 bucks for a card that has gone up 10k in your opinion that's not a horrible risk

it real tough to get top of market value on direct deals on SGC cards in my humble opinion but sometimes that same person that offers you 20k will pay 25k in an auction setting...or if its a PSA card you have a better chance to set a new market record in a direct offer.... but I just talking generally and my opinion only

SGC 4 52 mantle sold for $54,900.

LOL too funny.

Just going by these E-Bay listings, you can clearly see (in my opinion) that PSA does grade higher, or is not as strict as SGC.

Case in point, Billy Herman, below, VG-EX 4 (there are others). If that card is a 4 then your's and the one sold in the auction would definitely be 5's or 6's or maybe even higher?

Not bashing or criticizing, just stating my personal observations. Of course, like others have mentioned, there is more that meets the eye.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/Baseball-/21...p2045573.m1684

In the last couple of years PSA is much stricter than SGC in my opinion, in terms of corners anyhow and centering which is where most cards above 3 get graded down. In general, there are always exceptions.

Going by that Herman I was talking about and seeing it graded a 4 leads me to believe, like I already stated, those Mantles, if graded by PSA would have graded much higher imo. This Herman, comparatively, either doesn't deserve a 4 or the Mantles deserve a much higher grade.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-3...4AAOSwFMZWrkuj

PSA in my experience has gotten incredibly strict. It's also important to keep in mind that even in a new holder, a card could have been graded in a past era when different graders and standards were in effect. Ultimately, the card will always shine no matter the plastic or the number.

Makes sense, and what that Herman looks like to me, compared to those SGC Mantles.

When I seen that Herman, I got all excited thinking my cards, or most of them should grade much higher.

Like MattyC said it was the card not the holder in this case. There are two SGC 50s on ebay right now, one for 30k, one for 25k, and both accepting lower offers. No one has jumped on them yet, and I certainly won't be.

I would also assume that most people selling high end cards like this in SGC holders have already tried and failed to get them into PSA holders. I know I would have. But in this case it certainly didn't seem to matter. I don't think this one brings much more than 54k in a PSA 4 holder.

All 4s aren't created equal

It'a tough finding centered examples

I feel ya, brother. A collector who wants well-framed cards finds so many are tough to find centered-- especially Mantles. Just think of how many 52Ts, 51Bs, 53Ts, heck, all of them that we see listed everywhere...and how few are dead nuts centered. Makes the hunt and finding that rare centered card all the more satisfying and FUN! :D

Eye appeal
 

Is not the same as technical grade. Many can't understand the difference. The Herman is an older grade and irrelevant to what Peter stated which is correct.

A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 80 mantle would cost at least $100k in this market.
A nicely centered 52 topps SGC 60 mantle would probably be at least $60k after the 52 SGC 50 Goldin auctions sale of $54.9k.

cards dont always work that way, if one sells for less there is panic mode too......plus the high bidder on the last card is out of the market potentially on a last sale and its not like people are not seeing the auctions on these high profile cards...if the high bidder on a winning card doesn't bid on the next card up at a top market price theres always a chance of a major fall in price...of course there can be new unique bidders too. we shall see....

this price just goes to show that collectors are finally using their brains again vs completely ignoring it and being blinded or constrained simply because of what a flip says...

find me a better centered 57...

http://caimages.collectors.com/psaim...7mantle2.5.jpg

Fantastic eye appeal on the 57.

I agree. I see a truly dead centered PSA 5 these days as pushing up to the 75k barrier, since the 6s with such amazing eye appeal are locked in at 100k. If I am a buyer, I am looking at what a 50/50, tilt-free 6 with bold color will cost me (100k), and saying to myself, "Screw VCP, if I can pay 25k less for an equally gorgeous card, I'm doing it." Hence, a 75k "5." Again, talking only here about a specimen with rare, dead centering, equally rare zero tilt, and great color. In other words, a freak, LOL.

Fantastic 57 pictured above. Talk about eye appeal. Perhaps fewer than 1 in every 100 examples of the 57 are that well framed. With that card, between the tilt, the centering, and the various printing/image issues, finding a nice one is incredibly challenging.

I agree with you. A perfectly centered beautiful 52 topps mantle in PSA 5 could break the $75k barrier. An SGC 60 52 topps mantle equivalent could come close to that too.
Beautiful 52 topps mantle PSA 6's and SGC 80's are already breaking the $100k barrier most notably the recent goodwin PSA 6 sale of $133k.

theres starting to become a branch off of regular grades PSA and the SGC of the world versus centered grades..(when PSA starts to put a 2 digit number next to their grade then ill respect SGC more, you see SGC 88 and 8...but you never see PSA have to put an 88 next to their 8...or whatever number corresponds)

you will see centered 5s go for more than 6s....really should be a separate category of 'centered' cards versus the rest...

maybe there will be a new good qualifier to say CTR....which adds a point

Yep, I'd definitely say PSA is/are getting stricter than what they use to be.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-3...4AAOSwFMZWrkuj

I think Jake is right on the money here-- the market (which is basically us collectors) for the past few years or so, and definitely today and beyond, has essentially created two different price buckets: one for average cards and one for centered cards (provided said card doesn't have some serious eye appeal problem). It started with a data point here and there, but now it's the norm.

Yes a 52 topps Mickey mantle SGC 80(6) recently sold for $105k.
Obviously centering brings a premium as the auctions have shown time and time again.

Does mine on the first page fit that bill?
Yes, No, Maybe?

I just want to make sure I don't sell myself short - or overvalue it...
(when the time comes)

Is it $20-$30 range or $30-$40+ range (based on last SGC 4)

Or hard to tell...you never now - plus prices fluctuate too much on this card..trending way up though

its real nice....but you are right. you could be plus or minus 10k depending on the mood of the top bidders...

Yours is very nice.

Put it out on ebay at a crazy high number OBO and see what offers come in, maybe that would help you gauge the current value.

I did that. Didn't get more than a $20k offer. Somebody offered $1k (can't blame somebody for trying I guess) Then I see the same grade getting $54k on auction. But another comparible one via Goodwin got around $30k. I just can't gauge this market. I might have to wait it out. It seems as though the really nice 5/6s are headed to 6 figures...which might make a great eye appeal 4 the only you can get around 50k in a few years. I think the best thing to do is hold it for awhile. Part of me thinks now is time to strike...this card is hot...how much hotter can it get? But then again, my gut tells me if I sell now I will be kicking myself in a few years.

Sell into strength, they say. Others will differ but I just can't see the growth trend accelerating too much beyond this n the midgrades that are relatively plentiful. I think 30-35 but just a guess, I don't follow it as closely as Matt.

That is hard to believe considering the condition of the card, which, imo, looks much nicer than a 4, but with that low offer, it's clear, imo, that those bidding are looking at the slab and not the card.

its like a stock..there are ups and downs....you never going to time the absolute possible highest of the market , you will pull your hair wondering what if this or what if that....if you are are getting a nice profit i would sell it...rich rich people don't want low to mid grade cards...its a somewhat not as rich group in my speculation that are paying 30k and or big card lovers...once you get into the 50k+ land...i do think those middle class/upper middle card lovers look for other cards...and the rich rich people are still going for the psa 8 cobbs of the world and mantle 6+

Well boys...1 year later and my '52T Mantle is ending tonight (also SGC 50/4, also at Goldin) and unfortunately there are NO fireworks. My centered beauty sitting at $22k. Either the Mantle market is softening, or this is what happens when you don't shill an auction. In either case, somebody is getting a heck of a deal. Didn't expect anything crazy but certainly $25-$30 was my hopes.

https://goldinauctions.com/mobile/lo..._card___sgc_50

I reiterate my statement from the 54k sale

Careless and stupid
 

Goldin Auctions cannot and has never been able to see Max bids. This is how they have operated from day 1

Glad to hear they've (ken) changed their ways since the Mastro days.

Apparenrly your server crashed, the minute the market did.

You could still seeing some furious bidding near the end of the auction, and my gut tells me you will.
That is a beauty and I will be totally surprised if that doesn't sell real close to, or over $30G's.

Good luck.

Hard to know what to conclude other than prices for the 52 Topps Mantle have come down. The SGC 86 and the PSA 6 sold in the auction tonight for significantly less than the exact cards had recently sold for.

ended at 29-30k so thats right at the top of what you hoped. A direct deal may of worked out better but who knows

Glad to see you weren't disappointed, Canofcorn, and your hopes were fulfilled.

That was a very nice card!

I assume he was referring to his hope for what he would realize, not the bid plus the premium.

still it was the upper most price and well within 20%...plus he said on another thread he was happy with the price.

i would think if you buy a card today for 30k..and sell it next week you would be lucky get someone to also pay a total of 30k with the buyers premium....afteralll whoever bought the card first was the highest bidder out there and its not like the card was a secret to find in a major auction house. Selling a few years later and losing money to me (more than 20%) means a lot more significant that selling in a year...others can disagree

Well in the case of the SGC 86 in Oct 2016 the card sold for roughly 141K plus the juice whereas the other night it sold for 112K plus the juice. That is several bids off so interest has definitely diminished.

As for the PSA 6, it sold almost a year ago for 85K plus the juice whereas the other night it only went for 67K plus the juice, several bids off from the previous sale.

Neither sale was the next week and the difference between what the consignor paid for each of these cards and what they got for them was much greater than a 20% swing.

still we are talking about a year ago which isnt long when talking about a 50k card. If i bid on a card and lost by one bid which was a few k and i was the highest underbidder, i know i wouldnt bid higher. So another bidder would have to come out of the woodwork who probably already knew about the other sale.

Im guessing that the person that consigned the card a year earlier had the card for more than a year. Selling a 40k card in a year to me is a flipper. Again we are talking about the within a range that the sky isnt falling as opposed to ON FIRE analysis. If you can find that the card sold for more prior to that year old sale that would be interesting. Hertiage for example i believe reduces the juice on the consignor if they bought the card at their auction previously.

Also we dont know what arrangement on that juice was...if the seller was able to keep 10% of the juice the consignor lost within the 20% range. When you buy and driive a new car off the lot you lose a few k at least on a 50k dollar car.

The standouts in any grade will always do just fine:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...umbnail-071515

yes indeed

It seems to me the higher the value (amount) the higher the risk and reward. Many collectors can play it safer towards the lower end and still come out ok even if not completely whole. Find a great looking 20k Mantle, in lower grade, and you won't lose too much when you sell it, if anything. Buy a 125k card, which has other comparables and has risen a ton recently, and there can be a swing much larger than the cost of the great looking, 20k Mantle. Spinning the wheel is about right.

And I should add one other thought. At the top of the scale of '52 Mick's, in an 8 or better, that market could still have a ways to go. There seem to be more people with a cool half million to spend than there are cards to be had. Time will tell....

I tend to agree with you about the 8 or better possibly having room to grow. I think the entire high or higher end market has room to grow, not that this is necessarily a great investment opportunity because it is more thinly traded. Prices having come down on the lower grades over the last 6 months has more to do with a desperately needed correction of a market fueled by momentum and manipulation. Because a certain card in a 9 went up should not mean that a much more plentiful 7 should too however I know that is not a popular opinion with the resident spinners.

For sure!

Just a guess, but can the current low/lull not be attributed to the time of the season?
I mean Christmas bills are flowing, tax season is coming up (For us Nooks anyways) it's the off season, etc, etc?

I know last summer was an anomaly with exceedingly high prices and we seen the correction/bubble burst in the fall, so comparing apples to apples instead of last summer, have the prices really come down that much?

Noticed these 3 tonight on PWCC and I thought they received fairly decent bids pretty early in the auction? (8 days yet to go)
Not speculating, but maybe, now that people are getting out of their Christmas bills, etc, things may be starting to pick up again?:confused:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...EAAOSwopRYjjg7
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...sAAOSwNnRYjjhK
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-M...wAAOSwjDZYjjhL