Was told to post these pins in here so I am.
 

I recently made a purchase. $3000 for a bunch of PM10 Pinbacks. I have not paid yet because I want to make sure these are authentic first. I purchased a lot of PM10 pinbacks from Seaweed on ebay. I heard there are a few pin experts on here. Would love to get some opinions. Thanks

Heres more

Hello I dont like to comment to much on seaweed as he is high on his prices but I will tell you at least one of the pins is a repro . The Ted Williams that the name band goes all the way past his shoulder is a repro. Also I hope you didnt buy that purple Blitzkreg brooklyn pin as he has been told (I did see it sold) that it has nothing to do with the dodgers. Here is the 2 williams pins the one on the left is real. shorter name band.. Plus the little pennants that he puts on most of his pins never came with them.

Ugh that is very worrisome as he assured me they are all authentic and he has acquired them from stadiums. I'm not the type to back out but thinking about it as that doesn't make me fee too good.

Are the pennants real do you think?

The pennants are real but not very rare. A few are 1936-38 bf3s. Several are 1950 American Nut & Chocolates, and a few are very common 1950s mini-pennants. Nothing very special about any of them. Like Al said, they never came with the pins. IMO the value of the pennants range from 10 to 30 dollars individually.

Didn't you just purchase that fake 54 Aaron for $1300 also? Seems like you may be going about things the wrong way. Just a suggestion but why not ask for opinions on authenticity and value before making substantial purchases.

Yes just got a refund tonight for that card thank goodness.

Thank you Matty! As far as the pins go, what do you think about the value on those? I bought them all to keep the robinsons and resell the rest. At 3000 was that too rich of authentic? Are they authentic?

I can and will tell you that most of the pins that he has are real. Just not all of them. (3) in the postings I see are not. As Matty39 said the little mini pennants are real but 99.9 percent of these never came with the PM10 stadium pins. The only ones I have seen are some of the cubs pins with a small cubs pennant on them. Eric(seaweed) is a member here and I dont want to ruin his deal with you so I willnot tell you which ones are not period. I have collected pins for over 40 years and its very hard to give an education here in 5 minutes. But as was stated maybe you should do a little more research before putting up the money you are saying your spending.

Thank you AL. Are any of the jackies fake? That's why I bought these. Thanks

Yes all the Jackies are real! I do hope that helps you a bit....

I've always assumed seaweed's pins were legit but I've never understood the rationale for adorning them with mini pennants not original to the pins...

Agree that 99% of the little pennants never came with the pins. But another example I can think of (which I believe to be as issued) are the little orange Giants pennants that accompany Pins like Hubbell, Bartell, Melton, etc.

You are correct on those. Those abundance of those particular pins is amazing. Meanwhile, about 5-6 of 1960s era Giants PM-10s are next to impossible.

Yes Mark those to! But like I said to him its hard to give an education here in five minutes! By the way the New room looks great!:eek:

Marketing and $$$$ that the Rationale.. same as the vendors putting on the ribbons and trinkets... $$$$ would you buy the white christmas Lexus naked or with the nice big red ribbon on the roof? well you get what I mean!;);)

LAST 2. Are these good?

Yes!

Seaweed bought that last Mays from me!

I paid 60 for it lol hope I didn't get killed

Thats Fine for it..

Do you have an extensive pin collection??

He sure does.....but good luck trying to pry any away from him! :p

Not true all it takes is a few extra Benjamins! Compared to a few other members here who will remain nameless Im a piece of cake! ;);) Just sometimes one must learn to open up his snapper purse once in awhile!;);)

How many pins did you buy for $3,000?
Jerry Sage

34 total pins for 3190.

Thanks

If anyone is interested in any i will be offering any of them in trade and sale other than the jackies. Looking for rare Jackie stuff or graded jackie Robinson cards. With trade a bunch for one nice card. Thanks

Email sent.
Jerry Sage
jssage24@yahoo.com

There are a few JR items in the current Hunt auction:

http://huntauctions.com/phone/current.cfm

Thanks im gonna check it out.

FWIW, when I started collecting pins years ago virtually none of them had the dangly crap on them. A few years ago I started seeing them more and more on eBay. IMO the vast majority of them are Frankenstein creations of vintage pins, charms and mini-pennants. As I am not expert enough in pins to separate the modern monsters from the real deals I simply will not buy any pin with 'pin-nuts'.

ETA: what the other guys said: learn first then make purchases. And I'd start with just a few items that you want to keep, not with thousands of dollars of stuff you hope you can flip. This is a hobby that requires considerable expertise at the dealer levels and novice collectors are setting themselves up for losses if they try to buy high end stuff to flip before learning what they are buying.

I completely agree. I also think this case isn't something as innocent as bundling items to make the lot look more appealing. I think it is a slimey practice of intentionally making these items appear that they were originally issued together that way. Frankenstein is the perfect word.

I would agree that many pins on eBay and other auctions have ribbons or pennants added which were not original. Some are very obvious, some are not. If one looks through Muchinsky's book they will see a large percentage of his pins had some type of attachment. Those of us who are old enough to remember going to ballparks in the 50's and 60's, saw vendors selling pins adorned with attachments. Ribbons, tinkets......anything to make their pins stand out from the vendor next to them selling the same pins. I am sure they were added by each individual vendor, but they were original to the pin at that time.

I particularly like pins with attached ribbons containing printing denoting special events: World Series, All Star Game, etc. I believe this can add to a pins value. The attached photo show two pins which I believe have less value if the ribbon is not present. But that's just me.

Here is another photo showing vendors in New York selling pins in the 1950s.

Personally, I love the ribbons and charms of all kinds, but you do have to be careful and know what you're doing, there are a lot of "Frankensteins" out there. Time and experience will provide some sense of what is period and what's not.

I can't agree, Adam. Yes, there are many sellers (one on particular) who are adding things that never came with the pins. Buy many, if not most, PM-10's were originally sold with the (predominantly) red, white and blue ribbons and various trinkets.

As a pin guy, I find this discussion of pins and how they were sold originally quite interesting. Does Muchinsky discuss this aspect? Here are several questions/observations for the experts out there:

1) I would guess that most pins sold at or outside stadiums throughout the years were sold originally with something attached in the way of ribbons, charms, trinkets, etc. I can actually remember seeing pins at Griffith Stadium in the 1950s that had rabbit's feet and knives attached! It's my assumption that most of the pins we see "naked" these days had lost their attachments over the years.
2) I doubt if vendors would have been going to the trouble of attaching things to naked pins, I suspect they would have bought them one way or the other and sold them as is.
3) I love the picture of the Yankees pins. Anybody else have photos of vendor or stadium displays? How about yearbooks, where there would be a page of concession items sometimes? Here's a link to a stand of "1924 Pennant Winners" pins sold outside of Griffith Stadium during the series. I think the baseballs might have been candy containers. http://rmyauctions.com/lot-937.aspx
Here's another picture of this pin as auctioned, but I'm not sure if the ribbon and charm are original.

I believe the vendors did in fact attach the hangers to the pins after they received them from distributors. Ribbons and cheap tinkets added to the appeal when they hung them on their boards for sale. The better the item added, the more alluring to the buyer.

But what is your evidence for this? Obviously, those things do add to the appeal, but why wouldn't the manufacturers and distributors want to take advantage of this, too, and why would vendors want to go to all the trouble of buying pins and add-ons separately and putting them together? Your Senators pin is a tough one, but I would say of the handful of examples I've seen over the years, three of them came the way yours is, which would lead me to conclude that that's the way they came to the vendors, and the ones without the baseball had simply lost it somewhere along the way. My example of that pin has the same "flag" ribbon, but with metal glove and ball charms, which I'm guessing is a Frankenstein put together by a dealer.

Incidentally, looking at the 1924 "Pennant Winners" pin and the Senators pin together would certainly seem to provide a good date for the Senators pin, which would be hard to guess otherwise from the graphics alone.

I don't have any proof the attachments were added by the sellers. Just my opinion. Muchinsky did state in his book that the attachments were usually added by the vendors to add to their appeal. He also told about a veteran collector who recalled seeing vendors adding ribbons and charms to pins outside Yankee Stadium and Ebbets Field.

a

Wow I love the traction this thread gained!! Love the information! This is amazing and I'm learning so much!

Likewise, I don't have anything to dispute it, just a feeling of greater likelihood that assembly would have been done at the source to enhance attractiveness and sales. Wonder if there's much in the way of information on manufacturers or distributors out there, does Muchinsky go into that? I need to get his book. I'll also grill Rick Haskins at the national this summer about some of these things, he's seen as many pinbacks as anybody.

Who is Rick Haskins?

Why don't you simply REMOVE the add-ons if you don't like them...problem solved:cool:

Long-time dealer from Texas who always has the biggest assortment of vintage pennants and pins at the National.

No!!!!!!!!!

While not proof, what I found in an old classified ad on the internet does add credence to my theory that the ribbons and tinkets attached to pins were done by the vendors. The persons name is not in the ad, but the information is very interesting.


Phil Rizzuto Souvenir Pinback Baseball Button 1 3/4 inch.
This is a Vintage souvenir baseball pin / button. When I was a child 5-13 years of age I would spend occasional summer weeks at my Grandfathers & Grandmothers house in the Bronx, New York. Grandpa Joe, AKA “Baseball Joe”, was the owner of a large outside food and souvenir concession (1945-1975) at Yankee Stadium; opposite gate 6. As a result, they kept an inventory of souvenirs, in their garage at their residence. While visiting, as a child, I would often play at, in, and around the rear yard and the garage. Grandma, would allow me to play with the souvenirs and would also allow me to take and keep what I wanted. I was their 1st grandchild, therefore the oldest, and looking back, I was treated special.
As I approached my teen years, I became a weekend and summer employee of “Baseball Joes” Concessions. Among my numerous jobs, (when not selling hotdogs) was opening boxes of these buttons, cutting ribbon from rolls & installing the pin into its back (they snap in). In other words, the buttons you see elsewhere, with trinkets and ribbons hanging from them, were not factory generated. Rather, they were assembled by concessionaires and souvenir vendors. I know, because while the baseball games were being played, I would assemble hundreds of these souvenir items.
What I have for sale here, is the souvenir baseball button, AS IT WAS SHIPPED from the manufacture. The rear pin (basically an attaching device so you can pin it onto your shirt) was never installed by the factory. The (2) components were shipped separately. In the mid 1970’s the City of NY, through imminent domain, bought Grandpa out, razed his buildings, and built a multilevel parking garage. Prior to that happening, which was the end of “Baseball Joes”, Grandma, who I loved dearly, allowed me to take a box of these old buttons and various other souvenirs, for myself. Fast-forward to today, I have had these items for 40+ years, and now I am selling some of them.
So please study the photos carefully and determine if this is the Vintage souvenir baseball button you want. You will receive the Pin in the Photos. I will answer any questions you have and will gather any information needed, will supply additional photos if requested; just ask. Kindly see my other items for sale, as there will be others of my Vintage souvenir baseball buttons listed.

If you dabble in it long enough, you'll get a feel for which ribbons/charms are appropriate to which Pins. To me, it doesn't matter whether they were applied by the Vendor or by the Manufacturer, as long as both components are vintage and "of the era". Since this is how they were sold at the Stadiums, that's the way I prefer them.

I dislike the recent creations, such as all the mini pennant versions and the bright new ribbons with incorrect fabric. The amount of wear on the pin should match the wear on the ribbons and charms.

+1:D

That's pretty convincing. But I'm also sure that other combinations of pins and accessories were shipped that way to the distributors or vendors. I cited the example of your Senators pin. Another is the rare 1937 All-Star game pin with red, white, and blue ribbons and small plastic batter. I've had two of these and seen one or two elsewhere and they were all the same. And there are the ribbons specific to the pin, like a different 1937 All-Star game pin where the ribbon lists the players. So, I'm guessing it's a mixed bag, with some put together at the factory and some at retail. The distinction would be interesting to know, but, as others have said, the main thing is that the combinations be period, and not recent Frankensteins.

You could be right. Or, it may have only been sold by one vendor at the 1937 All Star Game who decorated them all the same. There are several PM-10 pins from the 1930s which almost always have small pennants attached. It is obvious these pennants were designed to be attached to pins. These may have come directly from the factory.

Yes, those PM-10s must have come with the mini-pennants, or perhaps came separately with attachment required by the vendor. The red, white, and blue ribbons on your 1937 All-Star pin, along with the 1&1/4 inch size of the pin, I have on two other Senators pins, which could date them to the same era. One has a small plastic batter and the other has a keychain with a gray plastic glove and white ball. I've always thought they were period, and their similarity to the all-star pin could date them. I assume that plastic accessories predate metal ones, generally speaking, though I have no proof of that. We've all seen the store displays of 50 or so keychains with metal gloves, balls, and bats, I'm sure those have been a great resource for dealers creating the Frankensteins. That had never occurred to me before now.

Just a little curious is that you now on ebay as Findnsell2u.. It seems to me you know alot more about things than you say!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I could be wrong, but if you are just buying these to resell and profit, it seems inappropriate to be continuously asking experts like Al for advice on every item you are thinking of buying. You came across as a new collector looking to get grounded but that doesn't seem to be the case.

This. I'm not saying that pins weren't sold at the events with dangly stuff, just that when I first started looking at pins I rarely saw them with dangly stuff intact. If concessionaires added them it would make sense that the wear a piece of cloth could take over time might cause the owner to remove it and toss it. Those super clean, sharp ribbons and pennants, nope, sorry, not gonna buy that as vintage.

Sometimes the dangly stuff is better than the pin. I had a routine Archie Moore pin (which is a $10-$20 pin) but it had an awesome pair of vintage leather mini-gloves attached that were probably rarer and more valuable than the pin.

Also of the camp these are created items. Seaweed isn't the only one doing it either. Is it wrong? Not entirely sure. They are what they are. Think he should say honestly that the items were combined to give them a more period feel if he can't ensure that they came that way. I've bought pins from him as well as Colgans chips and he is very accommodating with his make offer items. I've gotten items at 50% off many times. And times he's countered. I haven't bought PM10's from him but have bought 1956 Topps pins as well as others.

I am a new collector to vintage cards and pins etc. I have had memorabilia my whole life and collected new sports cards. I believe I stated elsewhere on this forum that my intention with these pins was to buy these and sell them all except for the Jackies. I was hoping to get the Jackies for free by doing this. I am a huge jackie collector, and paid about 900 dollars for the jackie pins and 3200 for the lot total. So I was hoping I could make a 20-25% profit by doing this and get my Jackies for free. I have lived on this site the past few weeks reading thread after thread to gain as much knowledge as possible. I am looking to get grounded here and trying to absorb all the knowledge I can. I am sorry if it came off that way as it definitely is not my intention. I LOVE buying and selling so please don't get me wrong, but before everything else I have a die hard passion for collecting. Brooklyn Dodgers and Yankees vintage especially. I hate that it looks the way you are saying because that is totally not me. Just alone this past month for my own collection I purchased:

1949 Bowman PSA 7 Jackie Robinson
1956 Topps PSA 7 Jackie Robinson
1940 Play Ball PSA 4.5 Joe Jackson
1958 Topps All-Stars PSA 7 Mickey Mantle
1934 Quaker Oats pin PSA 8 Babe Ruth
B18 Blanket Joe Jackson
Ferguson Bakery Pennant Joe Jackson
Assorted Jackie Pins

The ONLY stuff I attempted to sell on here was my vintage memorabilia I have had already from prior collecting, my SGC Christy Mathewson which I bought for resale as well as my Joe D Leaf PSA 3 which I also bought for resale and my walter johnson B18 Blanket. I believe all my threads will back me up. If you read my posts you can tell I'm still very green with the vintage card collecting which is why I ask.

I was wrong on the hank aaron rookie (FAKE), ted williams leaf card (FAKE), and a ungraded ty cobb red portrait (altered) and mantle 60 topps (NM but graded 5). I have been able to get my money back BUT lesson learned to stay away from raw cards like you guys have been saying.

I have read posts on pins here, bond bread cards, bobble heads, grading companies etc etc and it has been MORE than helpful... but please do not make me look like something I am not. I am a young guy just learning and also trying to make a buck in the process to support my family.

Hope this clarifies everything.

Thanks for the explanation for others (I didn't need one). You are doing fine. Keep doing what you are doing. Many, if not most of us, buy and sell to support our habit collection. ALL of us who have been doing this long enough have bought/traded for a fake/altered card or memorabilia before. It's part of how we learn. And if anyone hasn't, then they haven't bought and sold enough for long enough....

I was going to ask you last night in another thread if you won the lottery, LOL. (j/k none of my business)

I am also somewhat like you, I am fairly new here, trying to learn as much as possible, etc, and hoping to collect some for the joy but also in hopes to return a profit in order to help my son get through college or university. (If I have to?) If I don't, then I hope to turn my collection over to him someday.

Being in Canada, with the current exchange rate, shipping etc, makes it difficult for me to say the least. That, and trying to convince my wife that I am investing and not just blowing money is tough too.

I just received two very low cost cards I purchased through e-bay ($5 and the other around $12) but the shipping/import killed the fact I got them cheap.

Not sure my path forward at this point as I'd still like to collect/purchase, but based on what I can afford and the time it will take to at least break even, when you factor in the exchange, shipping, duty, I think I'm in a uphill battle?

I am grateful and very lucky to have received the cards I have from my Father, so I guess I should just be happy with that, and hopefully, like I mentioned, someday pass them onto my son.

I will still continue to be on this site, and hopefully I can purchase from here rather than the other avenues in hopes it will save me some money, but if not, then, like I mentioned, I will just enjoy the cards I do have and be happy with that.

Thanks for your story, and good luck in your quest. :)

Thank you for YOUR story! I love hearing stuff like that. At the end of the day I feel like we are all one in the same hobby trying to achieve similar goals for the most part. I wish you the absolute best in your journey!