PWCC Auction Yet Again
 

I know there have been multiple posts of late dissecting the avalanche of high quality PWCC consignments auctioned on Ebay. I just finished reviewing their latest offerings, and it took me all morning. The number of T206's and E90-1's is staggering. I won't dwell on what has been well covered here except to say I believe that the Ebay dynamic for auctions in our little world has been fundamentally changed. PWCC is now dominant player by far and they have provided a true surge in the amount of cardboard on Ebay auction offer. I am sure the other auction houses have noticed and see them as real competition. I say it is a great thing and I wish them well.

I agree, the more legitimate competition the better. :)

I'd go so far as to saythat no AH cranks out the quantity of truly rare material that they do.

Oxymoron?

Exactly what I was thinking.

I used PWCC recently and was very happy with the process of selling. Also like the fact that the fees are quite a bit less than an auction house. Payment took a little while but overall very positive experience for the little guy selling a high end card.

I remain convinced that people think their prices run very high only because they don't truly factor in the 18 or 20% vig charged by traditional AFs. Yes, they know it exists but I think somehow it doesn't honestly get factored in.

And I'm not 100% convinced that is a good thing. With them being the premiere players with no competition, they can charge whatever with consignment fees and still get the cards. Much in the way Ebay can make sellers fees whatever they want and the sellers won't go anywhere.

What is the eBay user name for PWCC?

NEVERMIND. I FOUND IT.

What makes you think sellers won't go anywhere? They'll migrate to wherever they get the most bang for there buck. Right now, with their lower fees, PWCC is a hot consignment. That could change...

I'm glad someone finally started a thread about PWCC, maybe someone will do the same pertaining Probstein.....:rolleyes:

LOL....Probstein is slowly slipping back....Maybe the lack of a back scan is finally catching up?

the lack of a back scan is a big issue for me when bidding on their auctions....to me thats pretty lazy..

First class operation, bypasses all the hassle that eBay has become for sellers, especially for larger volume stuff.

They also spend more on advertising than any other ebay auctioneer I am aware of in our categories. And they are far and away the largest advertiser on this board. They certainly have name recognition and Brent and team have done a fine job growing the brand.

To me it is refreshing to find a large eBay seller that actually engages in auctions rather than BINs.

It is consigned material
 

It's easy to start material low and let it fly when it is consigned. Much bigger gamble when it's actually product you have money invested in. I would only auction hot high grade material otherwise I always go with a buy it now. Auctions are a good way to lose money on other stuff.

To me it is refreshing to find a large eBay seller that actually engages in auctions rather than BINs.

Yes, and he doesn't start them at sky high prices. Trust your buying audience. Start a $1000 card at $1. Love these guys who start a $1000 card at $975. Not really how to run an auction.

well if you are a a consignor and the card sells for $800 and its a $1000 card those people probably wished they started it at $975 plus less chance of shilling if it starts at $975. Buyers love bargains but Sellers of course dont want to give away stuff.

The more cards that start at 99 cents though will drive BIN's of the same card to start lowering the price of that card if they want to sell it anytime soon

...as long as that .99 cent card sells decently. When that .99 cent card sells for peanuts is when you see the .99 cent auction disappear for similar cards. I will NEVER sell a Non-Sports card for .99 cent auction ever again! (unless I got it for free).

If the card sells for peanuts it is worth peanuts. If it sells for $1000, it is currently worth $1000.
When PWCC sells me a beautiful PSA 6 card for less than what some jokers are selling dog eared PSA As for, maybe it's the BIN camp that is messed up and not PWCC.

Isn't a "$1000 card" that sells for $800 in a well publicized auction, in fact, an $800 card?

Edited to add: Didn't see Steve's post before I posted. You made my point better than I did.

Jeez...
 

That good old buy low sell high theory strikes again.

Why does PWCC roll out so many high quality auctions, like not just 1 or 2 Aaron's PSA 8 but 12 or 13? Because people perceive the selling prices now to be to good to be true - aka sell high. And because people are sending in a lot of Aaron's PSA 8 to begin with. And people are sending them in for sale because there are quite a few out there to sell in the first place.

Compare the sheer number of 1950's & 1960's being offered with the number of true pre-war high quality cards being offered.

Our nice pre war stuff has got to catch up sooner or later, yes? No?

I do believe that certain consigners without ethics will shill their cards. Some other consigners will let it go and take what they get just like any other AH. It seems most people from the 54 group have morals and ethics and do frown upon shilling and any other fraudulent activities.

I guess my question is:

If PWCC sells a cards for an inflated value due to shilling or whatever and you consign and let your card sell and it sells for close to or the same are you not happy with that? You let it run a true course and reaped a better pay out. Do you feel that you should give back money because of it? I bet you watch the auctions closer and wait for the right time to consign and reap the rewards from it.

I may not buy cards from them but the prices they bring on a normal basis would not deter me from consigning either.

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

+1. Beautifully stated. If multiple people think it's worth something, then that gets you your true value. If the runner up thinks it's worth squat, is it REALLY worth squat? I have had people try to get my items via Ebay's messaging system (when I have multiples of the same item, for example, unopened wax packs) for the "peanuts" price, after the auction has ended. I explain to them my disappointment with the low price, and then proceed to sell the item for "real" value, in the case 3-4 times the value of the peanuts price. Might take longer than a 7 day auction, but doesn't take years! Obviously that is on items with a small market window. That won't work on a 1965 Joe Namath rookie card! Obviously a .99 cent auction will yield the best results, no matter WHO is selling that card! LOL! Then again, PWCC might get more than me....who knows!

What Rhett said
 

+1

A general point, not specific to eBay sales:

The price that you paid for something shouldn't have anything to do with what you're willing to sell it for. The money that you paid is gone, it's a sunk cost. The question is really: will you be able to sell this for more money in the future?* And if the answer is "no", it makes sense to sell it now. Sometimes selling for a loss is a good idea.


*Actually, you should also take into account the cost of maintaining an inventory, the time-value of money (if you sell it now you can put the money you get into the market, or buy t-bills, or whatever), and, of course, how much you need the money now.

I'll confess to being a buyer/collector who may find it difficult to put myself in a seller's shoes. My complaint is not with BINs per se, but with the fact that they are almost invariably set significantly above VCP values.

Let me offer a suggestion: how about auctions with low starting bids and reserves set in the general vicinity (+5%?) of VCP values? This should increase the likelihood of sales while at the same time allowing sellers to take advantage of bidding wars in appropriate cases.

Maybe an economist would disagree, but I think you need to look at more than one motivated buyer to determine the true value of something. If my house is worth $500,000, but some guy comes and offers me $1,000,000 for the house, maybe because his father grew up in the house and it's his life long dream to own it again, that doesn't make the market value $1,000,000, its a half million dollar house that some guy overpaid for.

Re: PWCC Auction Yet Again
 

Another emphatic plus one to Rhett's comments. I've been trying to make this point to customers and auction houses for years. The market is created by arms length transactions between ONE buyer and ONE seller. This is especially true for rare, but thinly traded issues.

PWCC set breaks 1954 Topps PSA 8 +
 

Im not sure where you can get set breaks which are the cheapest ways to get card in 99 cent auctions so regularly anywhere else

1954 Topps PSA 8s theres about 200 cards there. I am not sure I have seen any major auction house sell card by card PSA 8 or higher from 1954 to current.

1952 and 1953 yes. But not 1954 at least for years.

Ebay charges an exorbitant amount to set a reserve price.
If you set reserves on multiple items you would wind up losing money.

Thanks, Richard. I was unaware of that fact which obviously complicates my suggestion.

Mark

I start at my minimum acceptable price and take it from there. I don't sell as many items but I make more money in the end. I tried the $0.99 and let it rip approach and I would literally have been better off selling the items at my minimums and throwing out the unsold items, that's how badly it went.

Rhett:
With all due respect, I actually agree with your well-articulated point, but I believe you've actually supported my argument, not refuted it. My general point is that an auction (that is well publicized and therefore attracts rational prospective buyers) is A good barometer of market value but certainly not THE only way to determine value. To use my quote as a springboard to your point represents a bit of non-sequitur.

Again, I agree with you that a market price can be determined by two parties alone, a rational seller and a rational buyer (i.e. someone not selling or buying under duress or with emotion as in Steve's example.) It happens in real estate all the time. If one buyer buys my house (with no other bids) for $500K, then that is the market value of that house in the immediate term (obviously economic conditions can change that over time.) And so, if we both agree that at least one buyer and one seller are necessary and sufficient to agree to a price which becomes market value, then the presence of additional buyers (i.e. in an auction) would naturally be included in that premise.

Certainly not trying to create a debate on a beautiful day; just seeking to clarify my point as I don't think we disagree on much here. Full disclosure: I am largely a collector, but I consigned some cards to PWCC a while back and got CRUSHED. My only conclusion, however, was that the market price for my cards was lower than when I bought them. Just bad timing on my part.

Definition of market value
 

Includes what seller will sell item for not just what buyers will pay.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...ket-value.html

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

Probstein and Ebay are both on my SH?T list.

Jordan Rookies and Jeter Rookies
 

Always a ton of these every auction including this one.

To speak to Rhett's point: the problem is that eBay and auction houses are, by nature, very public spectacles. How do you create and maintain market value when private sales are, by their very nature, private? Especially on ultra rare cards?

Im sure this happens in the Art and Coin world as well...

LOL...which is ironic because PWCC sells on Ebay! So is Ebay REALLY on your sh*t list??

Any final price guesses on the Pete Rose PSA 9 rookie? Insane!

Burn

I would say those sellers you refer to aren't very good at their job. There is this thing called math that I use to calculate what price I can buy a card at and then sell it for a profit.

I completely ignore past sales of BIN and focus on auction prices. This way when I buy cards I only buy at prices that I can "let it fly" and feel comfortable.

I will never be confused for Dean's Cards. I Buy low...flip fast...repeat.

Worked for me so far.

[I am not a full time dealer and don't earn a living doing this}

CHICO Escuela. "...baseball has been berry, berry good to me..."

NOT being a d!ck - posted only for accuracy (BTW, it's a great quote!)

You admit you aren't a dealer and don't make a living selling cards but call people that don't want to lose money on an investment they have made "bad at their job"? You are right we need more dealers in this hobby that offer people pennies on the dollar for their quality items because that makes them "good at their job", because hey, they never lose money right!?!

Honestly, it isn't that hard to wait for a screaming deal that may show up from time to time and then sell for a pretty good profit. We have all done this. Making these types of deals in bulk and consistently turning a profit is very difficult and I know I don't envy people that try to make a living doing so.

I have to say I consigned a few cards. Figured with the strong prices they bring it was a wise choice. Needless to say I lost my ass. Kinda f'ed up if you ask me. Well at least I have a clear conscience

sorry to hear this...buy obviously you're not in the "in" crowd!!!!!

Not at all burned...even if that was his intent.

My sh*t list is very compartmentalized.

PWCC filters good quality product and service on a platform that has done me wrong. I cannot blame PWCC for the inequities of EBAY.

Sorry 'bout that...broken English is only my second language. :D

I never said pennies on the dollar...just fair market price. And wait are they investing or buying for resale? Investing is totally different.

Recently I messaged with a gentleman selling a Mean Joe Greene PSA 8.5 RC card currently for $25k despite the fact that it is about a 2-3k card. He wrote me a dissertation about why that price is accurate yet he won't purchase the other PSA 8.5 sitting there for (also overly inflated price) $11k. I just said "thank you".

If the public actually educated themselves, shops like Dean's Cards would be out of business. But gotta give him credit because they "are one of the only trusted sports card stores on eBay" and they have their own grading system and neat little stickers (gasp)...and probably a truck full of money out back so who am I to judge.

And yes I do believe dealers who invest in items they can't afford and then hold them for years at ridiculously inflated prices are dumb.

An educated consumer is the best consumer. A few months ago I bought a card from Deans for $2480 and sold it a month later for a $1200 profit. Otherwise, on my other deals with them I will probably lose about $200. All in all not that bad. :) I just need to work on the $200 mistake(s). I like Dean's Cards, personally.

AND to get back on track, there are reasons PWCC is kicking butt. For one, they advertise a ton. For two, they seem to be bringing stellar cards to market with their business model. And for three, Brent isn't afraid of transparency which goes a long ways in building trust (see his offerings). IS there still work to do on the auction bidding anomalies, of course. But PWCC is doing a fine job at the moment and their sales are proving it out.

.

Agree. At this time, with their current fee structure and wildly successful business model, I see no compelling reason to consign a graded sportscard with anyone else. Arguments can be made to the contrary of course.

I would rather have a clear conscious and integrity than be in the "in" crowd if thats what you are saying;)

Agreed. Hopefully, continued success will not lead to them raising their fees, in which case they would fall back into the crowd of other AHs.

I wonder if in the age of eBay the 30 day auction, I will get you a catalog eventually, isn't fading into the background. People want action. 10 days from announcing it to it ending seems right to me -- and PWCC doesn't require you to stay up to 4:30 am either. Maybe some of the other AH's should take note. I can plan my life with these auctions. Tonight's ends at 9:30 for me. Last few Heritage and others I lost in the middle of the night while fast asleep. I'm not playing that game anymore.

They also have some very dedicated bidders .... here is an idea of what you can see on just about every item they offer. Maybe not 100% on all, but you can see how loyal a following these guys have!

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 54
Items bid on: 23
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

Yes if you consider consignors bidding on their own items to be loyalty

They do seem to be very loyal bidders.:eek:

I have a hard time recalling my last eBay bid for an important card that wasn't PWCC. I'm sure if someone pulled my history with them they'd say it's suspicious too.

Just pulled down the one card I wanted more than anything else out there. 10 day auction and I'm not going to go to bed wondering if some guy in Californoa who works nights is going to beat me to it at 3:45 am. Yes. Thank you PWCC.

My history would show similar results. A couple of bids with Sean and maybe Probstein, but no one else else comes close to putting the quality and quantity of high end cards up for auction as pwcc. I bet my profile shows 80-90% with him. And I don't shill my own consignments.

Cause no one else gets the money they do. It's a catch-22.

So I had my eye on a few cards to understand the market, but not to buy. The last 30 seconds of this auction were insane:

http://m.ebay.com/itm/401148338576?_mwBanner=1

Is this "normal" for high grade cards or was this a one-off where two guys really wanted it?

Pretty normal pattern. Two or three folks battling it out at the end. Many of these high end cards double in bid in last minute. Most people figure why bother a constant battle for days, just slug it out in the 15th round. Rope a dope before that.

Probstein has a Red Cobb just started in PSA 8!! Tells you this is becoming the preferred way for high end!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

And the price is the price! Not 19.5% more.

Frankly, it's refreshing.

buyer not seller
 

Price is the price for buyers...not for the seller who consigned.....selling price is going to be lower than whatever someone pays for it one ebay

however price is the price usually for sellers at other auctions houses with the auction house taking the extra 19.5 for whatever percent..

?? :eek:

Glad I wasnt the only one completely confused by that sentence

Frankly if you've been on this board long enough and you don't heed the warnings in regards to certain sellers than you deserve everything you get.

I am not willing to bid on my own items therefore I would not do as well in PWCC.

Its really baffling to me that people are impressed with their prices.


Watch a movie called "Exit Through The Gift Shop". A fantastic doc that eventually shows how perception and public ignorance are a bad mixture when purchasing vanity items.

Price wise I would take their high end items vs. same items selling at nearly all of the major auction houses (+18.5%). Any day of the week. And I don't need to be up to 4 am to win it. Want to talk games, I'll talk what goes on at some of these AHs.

PWCC also has no conceivable way to know what my max bid is. I also like that. A lot. That's fraud protection of the highest order.

I really hope PWCC's rapid ascendancy is causing some of these other guys to reevaluate their business model. Start by closing auctions 15 minutes after no one bids - on that item. Show some respect for your customers.
Maybe I'm peeing in the wind. All I know is that Brent & Co. are currently getting about 75% of my card budget.

I just had two items end last night which I consigned to PWCC. One was low dollar and brought and half of what I'd been hoping for. The other was a higher end complete set which brought nearly $2,000 more than I had expected. I am extremely impressed with that price and now firmly believe that Brent and Co have a dedicated following that are willing to ante up and pay for a comfort level and professionalism that can not otherwise be found on ebay.

Do people shill their material? Undoubtedly. Does it occur as frequently as it is made out to? I doubt that. I didn't do it.

Quality material sells itself. Those who want it are discerning by nature and I am not at all surprised they would choose to work with one ebay seller over others whom remain essentially anonymous. I would wager that even the most prominent board members here would be unknown to a significant number of world class collectors who never stumble upon this forum. It is far more likely that they find PWCC on ebay than net54baseball.com. No knock on net54, just pointing out how much bigger the pool of buyers is than any of us could grasp.

Wow the problem is worse than I thought. :(. Smh

Glad that worked for you. And good sir it has been proven that yes it is very rampant.

Brent's like a guru he's got you guys hooked. Like the cult of pwcc.


Unfortunately his auctions are creating price points that shouldn't be due to card owners driving up prices on their own cards. I have seen the unnatural jump since his store became popular.

Hey use pwcc all you want, again it's your money. Dont lose sleep over it...we know Mr. Huigens doesn't.

I also consigned an item that outsold my expectations, realizing well over the $2000 I was hoping for. I had listed it here on Net54 for $1995 without getting even a sniff of interest. Maybe Brent's ads, client emails, broker reputation, etc. have more to do with those high bids he gets than shill bidding after all. I certainly didn't shill my own item and still wound up with a result that was better than expected.

Same thing here. I listed 2 different cards on the BST here several months back and only received low ball offers. I sent those 2 cards into PWCC and both cards not only sold for more than I was asking on the BST, but I cleared more than I was asking even after the PWCC fees came out. I did not bid on my lots, I didn't have any friends or family members or acquaintances bid on my lots. I also never even advertised my cards were listed with PWCC like some others do. Only complaint I really had is how long it took to get paid.

Hey I'm really glad for you guys. I just would take a little less and know that my stuff was being sold by an ethically responsible company.

I'll stick with the few auctions I trust.

Ok, if you don't want to do business with these guys fine. No need to disparage people who do as mindless idiots. There are some really nice AHs (love of the game and mile high quickly come to mind) and others that I wouldn't trust as far as I can throw them. I did a quick sample last night for sh*ts and giggles of recent high end Ruth Goudey sales and its abundantly clear that PWCC's prices are no higher and in many many cases lower that the leading AHs. The pages of hyperbole these guys crank out clearly work. If you want to think otherwise that's your prerogative.

I really didn't mean to disparage anyone.

These are the joys of a free market.

Compared to the prices we will run into at the national, PWCC might be a bargain.