Now that the dust has settled....observations regarding The 2018 Cleveland National
 

Every year, many of us wait with great anticipation for The National Convention.

Whether we are lucky enough to attend or whether we simple are excited to hear about the show and the great purchases that occur following this grand event.

Is it just me or was this year's show not up to the standards of past shows?

I would love to hear in greater detail from those who were fortunate enough to attend this year's show what they felt about the show.

Was there much less vintage pre-war to be had? We all come to expect the prices to be inflated at the National, but was this year worse then past years?

Has the pre-war material simply dried up?

Look forward to your responses!

Patrick

In years past...usually I go to Chicago and it ends up costing $1500 just for the trip...most cards are overpriced and I end up regretting that I could have stayed home and bought a babe ruth card with the $$$$.

This year I decided to go last minute...Lee Behrens offered a free bed one night, and a home base at his table...combine that with a mid $200 flight...a free hotel with points for fri night...it was a very cheap trip!

I liked the venue...I found it much easier to navigate than Chicago...there were a lot of food options...ladies hawking beer like at a ballgame. People complained about the parking but I did not have a car. It really added to my experience being able to hang out at Lee and Glen Mechanick's booth...Glen has some sick 19th century stuff and it was cool to have people coming up wanting to sell stuff. As per usual most tables were ebay shrines with overpriced cards that we see on ebay every day.

There were definitely deals to be had. I feel like I got a very fair price on an r315 ruth. I've been looking for a nice centered 53 bowman whitey ford for a long time. In one row at the national there were 2 similar examples...neither centered well enough for my taste...one graded one not. The graded one was $350 ...the non graded $70. I thought I'd have patience to sort through bargain boxes but I did not.

Friday I spent most of the day there and by 1-2 I was walking dead...exhausted!!!!! I tried to go through the whole show once then I circled back to see if the ruth was still there and I snagged it.

Green cobb...being the hot card in the hobby now was scantly represented. Most examples for sale were lower grade and shamelessly overpriced...one Pathetic example with the corner torn off had an asking price of $2300. All cobbs were hot...overpriced dietsches sometimes not even 1907 examples priced at rookie prices.

Goudey Ruths were flying off the shelves when fairly priced. There were a fe handfuls of oddball ruth issues mostly 150% priced. Lots of rookies at the auction houses.

Unbeilievable stuff on display at SGC and the big houses. I saw 3 wagners...pristine mantles...handfuls of ruth rookies...amazing autographed card collection in next REA...incredible game used ruth bats...tons of rtuh auto balls.

I enjoyed it this year!

Thanks Pete!
 

Thanks Pete...appreciate the feedback.

Patrick

One thing that surprises me year in and year out are the people who complain about the high prices at the show. Not directed at you specifically, Peter. Perhaps it is a side effect of eBay and all the auctions but it seems that collectors have forgotten how to negotiate. I mean, does anyone whining about prices stop to consider that these are asking prices and that offers are expected? I price my stuff well over 'market' for the show but I expect that people will haggle, bundle and seek a discount.

As far as the OP question, the place is a cornucopia of stuff but as is the case anywhere, if you are looking for a specific prewar card from an obscure set with a few examples, you probably won't find one. Nor, realistically, should you expect to find one except perhaps in an auctioneer's inventory.

The other thing is, you have to dig. Even if you don't enjoy sifting through bargain boxes, you still have to attack stacks of stuff, or you do not get a fair read on the inventory at the show. To give an example, I am always looking out for rare Exhibit cards. One of the cards on my list is the Salutations Johnny Rizzo, which is one of the toughest cards to find but since Rizzo is a nobody is occasionally overlooked. Now, on my table it would be a showcase item because I know the demand is so high for the card. I saw one example in the entire show and it was buried in one of several stacks of Exhibits at one booth. It was priced properly at $600 but it was buried in there. If I'd still needed a Rizzo to finish my set and I'd not have gone through every stack of Exhibits in the room, I'd have whined about the lack of supply of rare vintage cards.


Other impressions re baseball:

--Ruth cards have been strong at auction over the last year or two and the prices I saw appeared to reflect anticipated further gains. I think I noticed more Ruth cards than usual.
--Certain hot issues had very few cards overall at the show. Mendelsohns, I think I saw only a few. Not unexpected: why would you sell into a rising market.
--Very few Western regionals. I think having the show over and over again in the East is hurting the breadth of the show. It is simply too time consuming for West dealers to drive in and too expensive and difficult for West dealers to ship in a lot of inventory. I was pretty much limited to what I could carry on the plane from LA.

Interesting, Adam. The one card I did purchase...I made an offer of 20% below the dealers asking price...and he didn't even respond. I commented that this is a negotiation...and asked him what his counter was. He said that with my offer I'd lost him and he was insulted. I then offered him a price which reflected 10% off his asking which he accepted.

He acted insulted and pissed off when I attempted to negotiate????

The show is a reflection of our expectations
 

I was there with my kids Wednesday and Thursday. We were at A/C 2 years ago and Cleveland 3 years ago. At the 2 prior shows I/we were frantically hunting for rare Roberto Clemente cards from a very short want list - came up empty both times. Kids had fun - custom baseball cards and some boxes of new cards (baseball, basketball and pokemon). Both the earlier shows were big disappointments for me.
This year was different - I expected to find no new Clemente items (didn't stop us from asking though) - I decided this year was about my kids and getting them more involved (we have been collecting Pittsburgh Pirates team sets) - This year was great! The kids picked out A LOT of cards for our team sets and had a lot of fun interacting with dealers and learning the art of negotiation. Got some great Pokemon cards (at least that's what they tell me as I do not speak fluent Pokemon). We rode the ferris wheel a few times. Go figure, the year I go in expecting to find nothing Clemente - I find 2 great items!!
It seemed like there was more foot traffic than I recall seeing last 2 shows - anyone notice this?
I went in with very low expectations and just a desire to have a great time with my kids - we had a great show and experience and picked up some great stuff.
I do concur regarding the "museum pricing" on stuff - I was looking for a few graded Clemente cards to add to my registry set and while I did find probably a couple dozen that fit the bill - every single one of them was priced between 15% and 50% over current market price (that is after attempted negotiation) - None of them were that special that I could justify paying that much more. That I couldn't find one negotiable to market price was just a little bit frustrating.

My opinion is that the dealers are the biggest offenders of "hobby disappearance". I went to the National in Atlantic City. It was the same museum collections I see all the time. Nothing was for sale at a price that reflected what was being sold. I didn't leave that show feeling like the National was anything I'd travel for unless I was after an elusive signer who was appearing.

I was there Thursday till Saturday afternoon. There were some bargains to be had. You had to dig and grind for them but it was worth the patience. Picked up a nice 56 Mantle and the next morning a dealer had to have it. Got to meet up with some old friends and some new guys also. It was hard to meet up afterwards because of how spread out everyone was. Overall the show was great. The city was not impressive.

To bad there is not a Southern National in the end of May. Cities like Baton Rouge, Little Rock, Atlanta, Tallahassee, Macon, ect. I often wonder what would be found at these shows. A small hoard of tango eggs cards or Red Sun’s.

I didn't go this year, but had gone more or less to pretty much the last dozen or so Nationals. To be perfectly honest, the novelty is wearing off. First of all, it is very expensive with hotel, transportation, food, etc,... even before you step onto the show floor. As a very low end collector, I really can not afford these costs. Secondly, anything I need and/or want is always available online at a better price.

My favorite part of the National has always been the Net54 dinner, which gives me the chance to meet others from this forum.

This was my favorite National show-wise that I've been to. Granted, it was only my 2.5th National, and my favorite National overall was 2 years ago in A.C. when I was able to attend with my now-fiancee who had a blast, but this show was tremendous. Let me explain.

- I was able to attend 3/4 of that Thursday with my dad (I was there all day, and he left around 3 to work a different event). I learned very quickly that being accompanied by someone who is interested in sports, but doesn't necessarily collect memorabilia/cards, is a blast. My modest amount of knowledge really impressed him, and he couldn't believe the amount of history in the room, let alone the amount of money exchanging hands or the price tags he was seeing. I did explain to him that a good portion of the stuff in the room was listed at what we call "museum prices" but that the stuff is still worth a good amount.

- Being my 1.5th show in Cleveland, and fresh (pun intended, being 2 years ago) off my last National in A.C., I was very impressed with the layout in the IX Center. So much easier to navigate compared to A.C.

- I have developed a pretty good relationship with a few dealers, and it was great seeing them and catching up. Really, the best part of National is the in-person dealings and conversations. I know I'm young and wasn't around in the hay-day of "trading cards" (literally), but those deals and conversations at National are the roots of the hobby.

- Interesting selection. Being more focused this time around and with a lot of luck, I was able to knock out the majority of my targets on Day 1. This allowed more browsing and studying time, with my eyes fixating on future collection targets (T3s man... Wow will those look good on my Man Cave wall someday). I noticed a lot of the era's tier 1 names - Gehrig, Cobb, Ruth, Wagner - but was also surprised at the near lack of tier 2 names - Young, Johnson, Lajoie, Speaker, etc. I'd be curious to hear if other attendee's had similar observations in regards to the quantity of each tier. Post War was very abundant, so abundant that I'm glad I'm pretty much finished with that portion of my Hall of Fame project. I would have hated to spend time digging through the sheer volume of Post War cards for particular years/subjects.

- I learned how to spend money. Kind of an odd thing to say, right? But at previous shows - both National and smaller local show - I had hesitated to pull the trigger, sometimes on good/great deals, out of fear of losing out on something better. Not this time. I snagged my targets, and then some.

- I also learned to just enjoy the day. I went two days, and had a blast both times, for different reasons. They say the best part of collecting is the journey; this is a part of that journey. Enjoy it.

- I got the sense of enthusiasm. I don't know if I'm able to say that and have it hold much weight with how young and inexperienced I am, but I thought people were genuinely happy and excited to be there. I agree with Howard that there seemed to be a good amount of foot traffic.

I didn't necessarily enjoy A.C. the city, but didn't hate the show, so I'll be looking at the logistics of making it out there in 2 years. If not, then I'll be waiting for it to come back through Cleveland. Either way, I'm excited for my next National.

I was there Wednesday and Thursday. I had a great time. Yes, things were expensive, and I passed on many cards I would have otherwise bought in a heartbeat had they been priced even close to reasonable. That said, I pulled off two huge trades, and I found a few cards I wanted for prices I was willing to pay; I opted to drop loot on an E107 Plank, which was the only card I actually bought (vs traded). All that said, I judge the good vs bad of a show a little differently then whether I bought something or the prices were fair....

I view shows as a place to make friends, plant seeds, and lay the groundwork for deals that may take a while to consummate. I think face time and relationship building with other collectors is very important. I find making connections and then doing post-show deals to be a very viable source of acquisitions. Plus these connections often help me find hard cards (and I do the same for others), down the line. PLUS, you get to look at auction house cards in person, which is huge for me since most of what I acquire i get through auction houses (not shows or Ebay). To me, a show is much more than a place to buy cards - it’s place to make connections and plant seeds that bloom later - and the big shows like Chantilly and Philly have plenty of people and stuff to make the drive and admission worthwhile. The National is Chantilly and Philly on steroids, and so so worth the trip for the networking alone.

I made a ton of connections this year, and strengthened many more that I had already made. That is just icing on the cake to a show that yielded me an E107 Plank, an E220 Ruth, and a PSA 8, Allen & Ginters Cap Anson.

Great show.

Obviously, HE is a master negotiator and got you to negotiate against yourself! :D

I haven't been myself but each year I am in touch with quite a few people who go and in general that has been my impression for the last 5 years or so; at least in terms of the type of cards I have been looking for.

I spent the better part of two days there, and I really enjoyed my time. I was able to put a face to a few names/handles, and I appreciated the ability to talk shop more than I had in the past when I knew no one.

I thought the quality of material was pretty solid (as least for what I collect.) Were prices high? Sure. They always are at the Natty. But I found some reasonable dealers. Don Hontz had some well priced cards, and James Basch had a killer case. AJ's case was stacked as well. I always love Brady and Jeff's offerings. Brady was more than fair on a couple cards, and Jeff sold me an '85 Donruss Mattingly 10 that is now the centerpiece of my '85 Donruss Mattingly collection. ;)

I lived in Chicago for 7 years and I love that city, but the IX is better than the Stephens Convention center. The space is laid out well, and the lighting makes the cards pop. The Internet didn't affect me, but I can see how it would impact dealers. Again, a good place for a show; it's just too bad that you're in a virtual desert, devoid of any culture or places worth visiting in that immediate area.

The only complaint I have is that some dealers could not be less accommodating. I might visit a booth 4 times with no other customers and it was like pulling teeth to get attention. I don't get it. Maybe I look like a schlub, but I was there to spend. At least Levi hired some attentive folks (maybe family?). That's the first time in 10 shows someone in his booth has ever proactively addressed me.

Back to prices, I snapped a pic of one guy who was super nice, but maybe not that motivated. $18K for a 33 Ruth A anyone?

National
 

I am a bit spoiled in that attending a National is seldom a burden for me. My office is literally 10 minutes from the Rosemont Convention Center when it is in Chicago and I have family about two hours from Cleveland so I schedule the summer family visit to coincide when in Cleveland. Consequently, I never have hotel or travel expense.

With respect to the show itself, I think it was rather typical. For me personally, it was a bit unusual in that I got exactly what I was looking for and literally nothing else. Most nationals I go to with my list and I don't find any of it, but I end up with a dozen other cool things I didn't ever know I needed. I went to Cleveland needing 2 cards to finish my 1938 Goudey set, 1 card to finish my 1887 Allen Ginter (baseball only) set and needing to upgrade my 1963 Topps Mantle so that all of my 1960s Mantles are at least a 7 (will upgrade my 1952 Mantle to a 7 when I win the Powerball, for now just authentic).

Went Friday and within 3 hours had:

1887 Chas Bennett
1938 Jimmie Foxx
1938 Hank Greenberg
1963 Mantle

After that, literally my biggest expense was $8 on nachos. Oh, I did go to the Indians-Angels game that evening (Trout did not play (sucks) Ohtani hit two homers (cool)-not an Angels fan, but looked forward to seeing those stars).

Rob

Case in point: I visited with some collectors at my table on Wednesday and on Thursday one of them brought me two fantastic walk-in items that I acquired. I'd never even have seen them, let alone bought them, had it not been for the face time on Wednesday.

Second case in point: I missed out on a rare Brazilian card lot on eBay. The seller did not have another, so I put that on my want list for my type card collection. At the show I found out who bought the item on eBay and we made a deal for one of the duplicate cards so I now have my type card.

I've missed just two Nationals since 2005 (Anaheim and the first Baltimore) - I'd go even if I didn't have LOTG to promote and consignments to beg for. It's the highlight of my summer every year, not for the stuff but for the opportunity to see everybody, shake hands, trade stories, catch up, maybe grab a beer at the bar.

The other thing I pay close attention to is how many kids are in attendance at the show, and how enthusiastic they are. I look for it specifically. As collectors, we are all ambassadors of this hobby, and to some degree, we're the guys keeping these stories alive for young people. There were more kids at the show this year than I remember in a while; we gave away about 40 packs of cards and I'm always surprised at how many young kids can identify Babe Ruth just by looking at a picture. I don't understand these crazy pack rips they have, but if it's keeping kids engaged in the hobby, I'll embrace all the yelling and screaming over the microphones at the show!

-Ao

Thanks to everyone who opined. I didn't go this year but will most likely next year. It is mostly a social event (for me) and in that respect is a lot of fun. There might even be another Net54baseball Banquet but it's not decided yet.

When I retire I will go when it goes to AC, if someone wants to chill out and talk in the casino, and maybe play some Pai Gow afterwards.

Net54 Banquet - 2019 in Chicago
 

Leon:

I hope you decide to have the Net54 banquet again in Chicago next year. I always enjoy attending the event, especially for the meeting of board members and the speakers you have for the evening.

Bill

Have really enjoyed reading everyone's recaps so thought I would add my own.

I've been to the last 4 national's and have always thought it would be super fun to be a "dealer" and set up a table. So this year after deciding to sell some of my stuff, I reached out to some dealers a couple weeks before show time to see about sub leasing a table. Larrie Dean was nice enough to say yes and I was off to the races.

Can't say enough about how great Larrie and his wife are and I really enjoyed hanging with them and talking shop during the show. Larrie's been setting up for years and has a sizable area which includes dealers Scott Connor, Bill Yano and Joe Yander - all of which are good dudes that are motivated to be there and make deals. I learned a little something from each one of them during the 4 days and highly recommend you search them out your next go around.

Here's some pros and cons about being a dealer:

Pros: Loved meeting and talking to each collector as they came by my area. I would always ask what was on their hit list for the show and that would get us started on mostly lengthy conversations about what they collect and their experiences at the show. I was able to meet a ton of guys from Net54 and put faces to names/handles. I also had great conversations with the dealers at tables around me and got to know guys like Clay Sigg who was stationed across from me. Clay wrote an amazing book called Hometown Heroes: The Single Franchise Baseball Stars of the 20th Century. He was at the show promoting and selling the book. Clay played college baseball and we had a great conversation around what it was like being scouted and trying out for a pro team back in the 70's.
The camaraderie among dealers was cool to see as they would watch out for each other's tables during restroom/food breaks and help answer questions that came up from various collectors. Mid way through the show I caught the modern bug and got some really valuable help from a couple modern dealers around me on prices and what to look for as I made a couple purchases on the shiny stuff.
I ended up selling a dozen or so cards but two really stood out. There was a really nice guy from Texas that happened to be a border patrol officer. He came by on Wednesday to look at my N162 Cap Anson. It was on his wish list but he didn't end pulling the trigger. Too many other cards to see at that point. But we ended up talking a lot about his job and as you can imagine he had some cool stories to tell. He came back again on Thursday and again on Friday to look at the card. This was a big decision, and finally on Saturday he was ready. He literally caught me as I was packing up to catch my flight home Saturday afternoon and he bought the card as we walked out the front door to my cab. The other sale was to a guy from St. Louis (he was wearing a Cardinals jersey) who was there with his wife. He was looking for two more 48 Leaf cards to complete his set. He needed a low grade Paige card and I just happened to have one. We talked for awhile and negotiated on price and finally the card was his. He was so damn happy to have that card. And even though I was a little sad to see it go, it was great to see how much he loved it. I saw him later walking around with the card in his hand and he said he just couldn't put it away, that he still couldn't believe he found it.
Like someone else said seeing the young kids at the show was great to see. The hobby is alive and well and the modern stuff is a driving a ton of money, I bet many multiples more than vintage.

Cons:
As a dealer you miss out a little on seeing all the stuff for sale as you're busy manning your booth and talking to potential customers. Since I was solo and didn't want to burden my booth mates with watching my stuff, I didn't get to get around the room like I normally would. I was able to lock my case and sneak away a couple times during slow periods to check stuff out. But for the most part I stuck close to the booth. Talking about slow periods, it does get a little boring standing around waiting. Anyone that's worked a trade show knows what I'm talking about. There was one point when I was getting a little punchy and found a kid a couple rows over and we started playing catch with a foam baseball.
Your feet take some serious punishment. My dogs were really barking, standing on hard concrete for 5 days straight days.

Well as you can see the pros outweigh the cons by a long shot so anyone thinking of trying your hand at "dealing" I would highly recommend the experience.

Pros: now that’s how dealers should conduct business! Well done.

Cons: I’m surprised they let dogs in there. How cool is that?🤣

They literally did. I passed by two police officers and their K-9. Is that really necessary at a sports memorabilia show? Can anyone surmise what the need for a police dog would be? Seemed entirely unwarranted. Clearly, large amounts of cash are all over the the room, as is the case at plenty of trade shows. This was either the Wednesday afternoon or the very early part of Thursday. The cops were there to make an arrest of which we're all aware, but was a K-9 needed for that purpose?

I have a fading recollection of seeing a police dog at another National. I want to say the second-last one held in Baltimore. Again, an arrest was made on the floor at some point during that show, but I'm still not seeing the need for a dog.

Wow!! Totally didn't hear that one!! Who got arrested?

I think he is referring to a middle aged man and wife combo who were selling their own personally signed autos of famous people.

Very interesting article...
 

...by Rich Mueller for “Sports Collectors Daily” about the ‘91 National in Anaheim. Good times.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...theft-plagued/

Couple of quick notes:

1) I know this does not affect people on this board but the case breakers being in the same room as the dealers brought extra energy to the show floor. In Chicago they are in their own room.

2) I don't think Jim is part of Levi's family but other than him most if not all of the people behind Levi's booth at NSCC are family members.

3) I do agree even with the Ferris Wheel and the breaks in the middle of the floor. this year was laid out beautifully for all concerned. One of my two local LCS had a table in the very back of the room and he sold everything he wanted to and more at the show. And trust me, he's no wholesaler either :)

Rich

My guess would be because many criminals are more afraid of the dogs than they are of getting shot. I didn't see the K-9 dogs, but did see a couple of service dogs though.

I would much rather have K-9 units instead of metal detectors that make me feel like a terrorist for no reason and greatly slow entrance into the show.

i am going to guess that the police are better judges of what they need to do their job than is a baseball card collector on a chat board. if they thought they needed a K-9 unit then so be it.

Amen....
 

They are. True. In response to the previous poster that thought it was absurd.......what about the possibility that the dog was able to sense or sniff out bombs or explosives? That might come in handy in a crowd situation. How about as a flat out deterrent? If I'm a thief and see that dog, I might think twice about snatching a thousand dollar card and running if detected. Actually, that would definitely be a deterrent. Seeing a police dog and officers always makes me happy like when I see an F-16 fly by. Freedom baby. It tells me, no worries here, now just go about your day!

Peace, Mike

Seeing a police dog and officers always makes me happy

Same here. Only criminals or those with bad intentions get nervous with a police presence...

+1
I was eating at a Local In and Out Burgers yesterday. A few seats over were a couple of men in blue with guns. I felt safer. I always like seeing an authority presence where I am. Only bad people and idiots would think otherwise, imo.

Interesting. For me, seeing a cop and a dog means that they think there is a higher likelihood of sh*t going down. It puts me more on edge.

Tony Posada
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=258169

Also, dogs is a slang term for feet. Wasn't sure some people in this thread actually understood that.

Actually......
 

I heard the officers were collectors and the dogs were trained to sniff out dealers exaggerating the condition of their cards or inflating the prices of the same :D

Leon are there other In and Out locations other than the one right on I-30 in Rockwall? I love them!

Here are 37 with about half being in the DFW area...It seems there is one on every corner in parts of the North DFW area where I frequently drive. There are 2 on 635 within a few miles of each other, One near Coit and one near Midway or Marsh....... I live near Allen and know of the one in Allen (been there 7 yrs now) and one in PLano not far from me too. Good cheap burgers, "make it animal style dry with extra pickles and make the fries crispy please."

http://www.in-n-out.com/locations/texas

Back to the original subject. It sounds like almost everyone who went had a great time. I think it's wonderful as it's great for the hobby. When I go I usually have a good time seeing old friends and cards I can't (or won't) afford. And every now and then I am able to find a nugget too.
That said, I sure hope the National finds a better way to accommodate more dealers in the future. So far the National number to call hasn't been answering their phone or voicemails for going on 2 weeks now. What other business does that and succeeds? It's a modern day miracle. I think of sheeple.....and I am one too :).

.

LE K-9 Drugs/Weapons/Explosives. I always love to see uniformed law enforcement :-)

Most guys would never guess but there was plenty of law enforcement walking the floor dressed as ordinary guys. Many of us are collectors :-)

We have limited Dallas shopping routes! I stay on Northwest Highway and Preston most of the time.

I also fondly remember both Arlington Nationals, very poorly run and really hot outside for people waiting in line but great fun. Security was not needed but EMT's had to attend to many people in line, it took forever to get inside.

lol
 

Thanks Brendan,

I guess you could take your post both way but either way, I smiled!

:D

Amen....
 

Amen brother,

I live within 1 mile of daily F-16 flyovers and while some in our community complain of the noise all the time, I for one just smile every time I hear or see them. I usually hear them first! :) The sound of freedom and security.

I brought my daughter to Taylor Swift in Foxboro and saw heavy police presence. It seemed strange I guess to some but I liked it. The more crowds, the more chance of trouble.

Peace, Mike

1st Timer

This was my first one and likely first of many. I spent the entire day on Sat at the show. I very quickly realized I needed more than just one day....rookie mistake....especially for a set builder searching boxes.

I was in heaven and my smile was ear to ear. I mostly focused on looking for hits to my vintage sets, but I also ripped a box of A&G with my wife. She happened to open all three packs with the GU....she was happy and I was happy.

This past weekend we were at the Nascar race in MI and she bought her first card ever! It was a Dual Materials 6/25 of her favorite driver (Larson). I think she might have the bug and might even let me go back...lol

Overall had a great time, will definitely go back and spend more time than just one day.

My first time at The National as well. Sounds like I'm the only one, but I was just a tiny bit disappointed. Tons of tables, great to see a huge turnout but, personally, I wish there had been a touch more diversity. Loved all the big-4 cards, espically the number of rarities. I was hoping for some of the harder to find items from other sports.

Plenty of examples from 2015-2018 but only saw one Pele, two Ali RCs(saw both sell for good $) and nearly zip from others- soccer, boxing, tennis, racing, golf (a few 81 Donruss), etc. You pay for a table, you can put out whatever you like, but with 600+ tables, I thought there might be a little more variety.

That said, I'll probably be there next year in Chicago. :D

Yes Sir! Love It :-)

Thats his loss. The polite thing to do is to counter with his asking price to bring you back to his BATNA. Guy probably just doesnt know how to negotiate.

I think the In and Out Burger place Leon is referring to is the one by the show I run at the Comfort Inn (subtle plug) -- there is also one about 10 minutes north on Central.

As for the 2019 National Tables they are already SOLD OUT with a growing wait list for next year. The odds are steep to get a table but always possible

Rich

Being that I’m up your way too — all I can say is time to base the F35s

Respectfully disagree. I know you don't allow political discussions here but there are many stories of police abuse and misconduct that make many people, especially racial minorities, legitimately nervous to see the police even when they have done nothing wrong. If you want, I can give examples and statistics. If you want to think of me as an idiot that's fine with me. Thanks for letting me speak my piece. Ted Clayton

A few bad eggs can besmirch the overall image of a group of men and women who put their lives on the line for us each day -- I'm thankful for law enforcement and for all of their work that goes unnoticed. Abuse of power comes with all positions, it's not just about statistics. It's our job to stay vigilant and speak up when such injustices occur. Thin blue line....

It is ok to disagree just put your name next to your post. thanks

2018 National
 

Coming from a different point of view, I was brought in for my experience with soccer and international sports.

This was my first National Convention. I am well versed with the major auction houses and thought that it was quite like mini museum's with the many artifacts on exhibit. The big difference being that they could be purchased.

I inquired with quite a good number of dealers about soccer inventory. Most still had the puzzled look and replied with a no. I smiled and thanked them.

However, with the major card makers all having soccer product - Panini, Leaf and Topps all had freebees that were soccer nirvana to my eyes.

And then there were the dealers ahead of the curve - with both vintage soccer cards, and new high end stock for the enlightened investors.

But what I always enjoy, and did at this show, was going through bargain boxes and just finding cool cards.

Aside from the soccer I unearthed, there were vintage cards of motorcycles, native American Indians, 1954 football, and original Star Wars stickers that I added to my collection.

All in all, there was something for anyone and everyone if they wanted to dig for treasures.

I'll go next year to Chicago and have something to compare it with.

Thanks for reading.

Insulted? Really? Though I wasn't in Cleveland this year I have had similar experiences with dealers over the years. My observation with these kind of dealers is that they are either Type A personalities with ego's the size of the room and are projecting their ego on you or they are the socially awkward type who shouldn't be in the business of dealing with the public. I try to find and spend money with dealers who are pleasant, greet you at their table, engage in conversation and are willing to negotiate. Makes the whole card collecting experience much more enjoyable.

Bob

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.

sure, Bob...in a perfect world it'd be nice to only deal with pleasant. reasonable people.

What gets me is 300+ cops were killed by black men last year....meanwhile about 17 blacks were killed by cops (some just shootings, some not)......yet somehow black lives matter......the statistics say Blue Lives matter too.


Coming from a family of all cops, and a huge supporter of Blue Lives Matter, I'm not sure if your figures are 100% accurate. Or maybe they are. Just seems a little off to me....

His stats are crazy. All Lives Matter. That said let's get back to the topic.
So the 2018 National was great and everyone had a good time. What Rich K said above is problematic. If all of the 2019 tables are sold out before the next year even starts one would think they would work to rectify that. Mike Berkus (RIP friend) wouldn't be happy at all about the way the National is being run with respect to not satisfying dealers and therefore not making it the best it can be. I never recall this issue when Mike was the main man.
.

I guess the stuff I buy isn't super rare like some of you guys collect so I have more dealers to choose to deal with.

Bob

My two shekels as a very small time, low end dealer and similarly a low end collector.

This was my second National (first was AC in 2016). At both I set up with some buddies and had essentially one 8-ft table for myself. The vast majority of what I sell is boxes ranging from 50 cents to 5 dollars, with a few cases of stuff. Almost all 50s/60s/70s, nothing later and very little earlier. I try to cater toward the OBC type crowd, set builders, etc. I make every attempt to bring short prints, variations, errors, and so on.

As you can tell, that's not a big money making endeavor. Like I said, I'm small time, low end. I mainly do small local shows, but like to go to the National and setting up is a way to cover some expenses. My buddies graciously watch my table for me while I walk the room and spend 4, 5, or 6 hours at Chandy Greenholt's table.

As a dealer, my biggest observation was that the crowds seemed lighter than 2 years ago in AC. I know I wasn't the only dealer who felt that way. In some ways this was odd as I still had the same volume of sales I had in AC (I keep meticulous sales data), but I know there were fewer people at my table overall. The other strange thing is that in AC, my strongest day was Saturday, and in Cleveland it was my weakest day. My strongest day this year was Thursday, followed by Sunday (which sort of blew my mind -- Sunday was a waste for me in AC).

As a buyer, I did love the layout. Found my way back to several tables without even writing the table numbers down. In AC even when I did write info down I couldn't navigate back to them. Food offerings were better which I appreciated as a guy who likes to eat, but I also feel like as a dealer may have hurt crowds some, because there was so much seating near the concessions (including several bars!). One thing I noticed was that there weren't a whole lot of dealers selling what I sell, which is disappointing to me as a buyer because that's what I like to buy, but encouraging as a seller because it's almost as if low end 50s-70s stuff is a niche market. Plenty of "set filler" dealers with all their sets in binders or boxes, sorted by year and number, but not as many boxes to dig through or cases with low end bargains. Case in point: #1 item for me was the lowest grade 1949 Bowman Snider I could find. I couldn't find anything low grade. #2 item was 53 Bowman Reese, same deal. I think I saw a PSA 2 Reese somewhere but I don't want a graded one. Everything else was high end graded or high end raw, nothing beat up enough to fit in my collection. Tons of ridiculous high end modern stuff, tons of ridiculous high end vintage stuff. Plenty of second-tier type stuff -- I mean in the several hundred dollar range. In fact this was where I saw what I thought were the best deals, it just wasn't stuff I wanted.

In general, I think the east/central bias is a mistake, and rumor is the committee that chooses cities wants it in Chicago permanently. I think that's a huge mistake for many reasons (money being chief among them, it's the most expensive place to stay). Even having been to only one previous National, I saw mostly the same dealers and in fact many of the same customers. Having it somewhere southeast, south central, or out west would be great.

Done. Thank you.

You are so off with your figures it's appalling. Utterly shocking misconception of police violence in America. I'm not sure if this is willful suspension of belief, ignorance, or something even worse. Perhaps think of using any search engine or newspaper to check these figures before stating them like you know it's a fact (and showing how grossly misinformed you are on such an important subject).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...=.1a5e901ef89b

This is not just some opinion.

Wow guy. Just wow.

I hate to derail but mercy...

Okay... National. Great times..

David Lu$^ig

Just take a look around and it's pretty clear what a lot of the problem is. This thread (and much of this hobby) is far from inclusive and far from welcoming.

Last post in the thread..

David Lu$^ig

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016...l-lives-matter

try it mustard fried with chopped chilis. your mouth will thank you.

I always want to attend, but with the cost of travel I always decide to stay home and use that money to buy one or two nice cards online instead.

I go every year. The reality now is that you can find more items online (and usually at a better price) than you can at any card show, including the National. You used to hear that you would see things at the National that you'd never seen before. While this is still a possibility, it doesn't happen as much now with all of the online auctions out there.

However you can't have a beer with long time friends online. You can't sit at the bar and talk to a former MLBer online. You can't sit next to a collector and trade cards online ... or put a face with a name (ID) ... or experience a show with your kids. There are so many reasons beyond cards to make the trek each year to the National. The National is our hobby's yearly convention. If you look at it as that, its a can't miss event even if you come home with nothing but memories.

jeff

So well said Jeff. I agree 100%. Catching up with old friends and making new ones and experiencing all of it with my son was absolutely priceless. Showing him what I collect and why and digging through boxes to find what he collects and introducing him to my friends in the hobby. Awesome stuff.
One highlight was finding his first prewar baseball card as he is a new and shiny football card collector. A PSA 4 Hughie Jennings T206 both arms pose that is nearly perfectly centered and very very nice for the grade at a very fair price.
That card now resides right in the middle of his display case in his room. And he is pumped about it. Sharing that moment with him is something I will truly never forget.
I love this hobby. I love the relationships that have been made. I love the convention. I try to go into it with expectancy instead of expectation. I don’t expect to find some amazing deal but it’s cool if I do. I don’t expect to find exactly what I am looking for but it’s cool if I do. I don’t expect everything to go a certain way. I go with the hope of having a great time for the right reasons and it always seems to happen. And sometimes I even bring home great stuff purchased from great people.
Eric

This guy wasn't enthused about his experience with SGC:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1230794

Oh, and on that topic, SGC changed their labels for the Pristine graded cards to be abbreviated as PRI instead of PR, which some were confusing with PR for Poor.

So now we have the following grades at the three major TPGs:
BCCG 10: Mint or Better (most people value this as an 8 or 8.5)
BGS/BVG/PSA/SGC 9: Mint
SGC 9.5: Mint+ *newly invented grade: 97 / 9.25?*
BGS/BVG 9.5, SGC 10 (old 98) Black Label, and PSA 10: Gem Mint
BGS 10 Pristine comes in Black Label for all 10 subgrades or Gold Label for one 9.5 subgrade.
SGC Pristine Gold Label (no number, old 100)

As a low grade and type collector, Nationals provide more stuff to sift though than other shows, even if walking on all that concrete takes a lasting toll. This year, I found an above-average amount of lower-grade material and saw it at tables earlier in the week than other years. That gets a thumbs-up from me. (Based on reports so far, that didn't mean people were having bad weeks and not selling anything, as I've heard as a "sign" at some other Nationals.)

Prices for the bigger names felt 20-25% higher than you'd pay online, despite a high number of dealers showing big-name cards and arguably competing against each other. My one significant buy, a low-grade Sports Kings Cobb, cost $240 from a dealer who didn't have a great table location, which might've helped me in that deal. I came ready to buy a similar condition Sport Kings Ruth and didn't find many to choose from, so left without that hit.

I appreciated that you can retreat to carpeted promoter areas and rested my legs several times near eBay's booth. Cleveland's layout is OK, since you can see almost everything in straight lines. It does seem beholden to big booths needing to use the aircraft doors for load-in and load-out. As a visitor, I'd like to see Topps, Panini, and so forth as a side-to-side presence in the middle of the show surrounding the ferris wheel. Having them end-to-end along one edge feels like two shows that happen to be in one building.

I had a showcase of only boxing, as did at least two other dealers. There was also one dealer who is 90% boxing. I expect i will be back at the show next year at the LOTG booth with more boxing.

At the hotel I was staying in, there were either 2-3 boxing collectors I met at the breakfast served at said hotel.

Hey Adam, guess I missed your table. Maybe I was a little punchy after 3 days of wandering. If I'm in Chicago next year, I'll definitely look you up at LOTG.

You know, even Lionel Carter complained about the prices at the 1972 Detroit Show. Value is a double edged sword, but in my humble opinion, the hobby isn't today how Jefferson Burdick and company envisioned it to be. There are plenty of options on purchasing what you want either at the National or ebay and in many cases you can simply walk away if you don't feel comfortable with the transaction -personally, I'd feel better doing that than to overspend on a card leaving me with that pit at the bottom of your stomach feeling -you know the kind, most of us do...I wanted to attend this National but Camden Yards kept calling my name, so next year Chicago it is and I cant wait! Perhaps I will meet some of you fine folks, shake your hands and talk about cards.

Yes, Camden Yards is a wonderful stadium, but I don't understand how it could be calling your name this year. Oh wait, I think I get it - you went to root for the visiting team! :D