Help with this 52 Topps Mantle
 

Hi Everyone,

I am going tomorrow to look at buying my first 52 topps mantle.. I know little about the card.. in terms of spotting fakes... im hoping someone can help me with any known things to look for if buying a raw 52 tops mantle, i would greatly appreciate it...

See images below.. looks as if it would grade a 1 out of 10 to me... agree?

https://i.imgur.com/gkzoBc2h.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XGclzbrh.jpg

thanks for any advice..

Use this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUwmxKaMXmQ

Also, when a '52 T Mantle is ungraded in the screwdown holder nowadays, the odds of it being real aren't too good

Very informative video. On the back I spotted the stitching going right-to-left on the baseball instead of left-to-right as authentic ones should have and the "t" failing to line up with the two "s"es along the right side.

wow thanks for the video... according to this video the card i would be looking at tomorrow is a fake.. the stitching on the baseball on the back top left does not flow the correct way... appreciate the link.. you saved me here..

hoping others can chime in... in the title of the video it says "disregard comments on fake backs"... does that mean the back theory was proved wrong?

i am finding cards in PSA holders that sold on ebay with the stitching the same way as the card i am supposed to look at..

example of a PSA 5.. with stitching from right to left.... based on the below i would reverse my thinking and say the card is real... any input is appreciated..
https://i.imgur.com/fUNyWbvh.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/DyU1jcOh.jpg

It doesn't prove that it is real but that is the correct stitching direction for the 1952 Topps Mantle with the black line under the Yankees logo.

Mantle, Robinson and Thompson were double printed cards and the stitching is is counter clockwise on them.

Mantle is easier to tell as the front has more differences than the other 2 cards as has been pointed out.
Use these pics. It should help you with your decision.
There is also this link: https://allvintagecards.com/how-to-s...-topps-mantle/

Good luck.

What is the red 4 pointing to on the type 1? I don't see that referenced anywhere.

The allvintagecards link that Irv just posted is very accurate.

The stitching on the baseball on the back goes right to left on Type 1s (which is your card), and left to right on type 2s, so that looks ok. In the video, his information about fake backs is wrong, so that guy is probably referring his own advice where he says "disregard comments on fake backs".

Based on everything I can see from your card (using all the expert info referenced), it looks like a real type 1 card. Which I cannot fathom, since as mentioned, the initial screwdown low grade appearance just screams typical fake. But it does appear to check all the right boxes, unless there's something I'm missing

This is just my very neophyte opinion on spotting fakes, especially when it comes to the '52 Mantle. Caveat emptor.

This guy is right ^^^. The guy in the video is an idiot. He doesn’t even know th Type 1 back. The card you showed has a chance of being real.

Are fakes so good now that an experienced collector can’t tell from good scans?

The wear looks natural to me. I think it’s real.

With all these hesitation in mind, I wouldn't buy an ungraded Mantle. Period! Unless it is a few thousand dollar less but (again) that would be too good to be true. A graded 1 Mantle RC is less than $10k anyways.

Hi Jamie

Here are the two Mantle cards from my master 1952 TOPPS set. When you compare the front's, you will notice minor differences.
The most notable difference is the glossy glare on Mickey's right arm (Type 2) vs. the clear skin tone (Type 1).


Type 1 .................................................. .........……........... Type 2

http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mmantle52t.jpghttp://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...tleSGC40xx.jpg


And, as already stated the stitches on the BB on the back are reversed between Type 1 vs. Type 2 cards.

Good luck.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Just scan thru that youtube video... he should delete his video if there's incorrect information. putting ""disregard comments on fake backs"" in comment isn't enough. STUPID!

I thought the same thing about usual wear.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

I would say there is probably like a 2 percent chance it's authentic. What's the story with the card? I find hard to believe that anyone would know enough to know the 52 Mantle exists but not know enough about how to maximize value on a card like that re: getting it graded or auctioning it through a house.

It would be like if someone said they found a first issue of Superman and instead of doing any due diligence they posted an ad on Craigslist. How likely is it to work out for the buyer?

Could be real with a hidden alteration such as coloring etc.....which could be why it's not in a holder. Caveat emptor. Maybe buy with the guarantee of it being unaltered according to the opinionators. :)

Jamie, not that TPGs are always right, but I, personally, would never buy a card of this magnitude, especially if it’s outside my comfort (I.e., t206 for you), that wasn’t in an SGC or PSA flip. As we all know, hazing it in the flip is no guaranty, but it does provide a level of comfort that I would need.

I also like the wear as someone stated above and think it's legit, but Leon makes a very good point. Just because it may be authentic doesn't mean it's problem free. If it is real AND unaltered I think it's a "2." I would prefer to see it out of the screw down though.

Bring the corrrect tools
 

Just looked at a fake 53 and 52 Bowman the other day. Essential tools:

1) A known real 1952 Topps card (any player) - to compare feel, size and appearance
2) A ruler to make sure it measures correct 2 5/8 x 3 3/4
3) a 10 power loupe - under magnification a fake will appear to have a "dot pattern" over areas that should be solid color
4) a blacklight to check for recoloring and alteration
5) a printout of the signs to look for on a fake - readily available with a google search for both type 1 and type 2 cards.
6) Common sense - applied as needed

Good luck - let us know how it works out.

Ps Was this a "Craigs list find"? If so be EXTRA careful

Like Ted I have both versions with my set. One graded, one not. I was confident the ungraded version was good but because I have been a long time customer sent it to Levi Bleam to verify that

Add me to the group that believes it to be real. Remember this is a card that there is no shortage of them in the hobby and outside of the hobby. There are plenty of people who have this card in their childhood collection and never bothered to keep up with the hobby trends of grading. However, I would also be cautious with it in that screw down. Definitely take it out before purchasing to make sure it is not affixed to the plastic. Who knows how long it has been in there. Also keep in mind, depending on how tight it is, the corners may have been compressed and consider how a TPG would look at it in that situation. I would also take a common 52 with you to compare the feel of the card. Actually touching the card will tell you a lot.

Edit to add: also keep in mind it hurts a lot less to walk away from a good deal you're unsure about than pay for a mistake.

Perhaps sounds simplistic, but why not ask the owner why he never got the card graded?

the card has been in the family.. the guys father who is now in his 70s is the original owner.. and passed the card down to his son who is the one looking to sell his card.. its been with the family since taken out of the pack. (is what i am being told)

You should also sniff it to see if it smells like old cardboard and bring another 52 with you sit them side by side to check thickness (from being in screwdown.)

May not have been graded as it looks like a thumbtack hole in upper left.

That is the same story told by everyone though. It wouldn't inspire confidence in me. I've seen sale posts for Sinclair Oil Ruth baseballs that the person insists were gathered in person by a grandfather.

I think DJ gave some great advice - to paraphrase, you don’t get hurt by the deals you don’t do.

If you are at all doubtful, then walk. The downside is likely much greater than the upside, and you will have plenty of opportunities to buy a 52 mantle (they are not particularly rare)

That would mean he was born after 1940 for a 1952 card....so if he is less than 80 he was under 12 when he obtained it according to the math... looks good though...

Let's say you have never benched in your life, and I tell you to lift 300 pounds, would you do it? That's what I see you doing here. Nobody can help you buy a raw card online. Counterfeiters are "upgrading" their work all the time. If you want a 1952 Topps Mantle, then just purchase a graded example.

All of these are also reasons that drive the value of the card down. So if you see them, take note. Then make your offer accordingly.

What Leon said above is true. Look for possible alterations.

Good luck!

if he is asking a too good to be true price..then you know the rest

I see aged reprints like this one in the link below on eBay all the time. I wouldn't buy a raw 52 Mantle from someone I didn't know. Just my .02.

www.ebay.com/itm/313009361036

Taken out of the pack in THAT condition?

Jamie - Sometimes you gotta say WTF and walk away.

I vote real as well. :cool:

Without my Topps sniffing hound dog being able to check the card in person, I'd vote real on this one. But then again, I'm not voting with my money.

$2500 is worth the risk

OP - what happened!?
 

Please share what decision(s) you made and how it turned out? You were going to look at it and possibly purchase yesterday?

Where is this card? I will go look at it

Artificially aged corners, stock doesnt look right where its worn.

I guess It could be the shadow in the photo.

Admittedly, I'm a skeptic.


Ive probably bought 2 or 3 Mantles on ebay for good prices that were never shipped and probably from scammers with 300 or so feedback. Never lost in them, but would be worth a few more photos at least.

Can you tell him that you'll buy it if he gets it graded? You can offer to pay for the grading if it comes back genuine.

If you're going to go that route why not buy one already slabbed? Surely the appeal of this card is the lotto ticket aspect of paying well below it's value.

The dollar amount the seller wanted for the card was closer to $12K.. at that price I can find a graded example. So no card was acquired.

but appreciate the help from the forum.. members stepped in right away to help.. Net54 is a great place for hobby talk, and protecting each other against scams.

52 Mantle
 

I'm working on a 52 set in raw, low to mid grade and have been sorting cards, and placing them into cardsaver 1's. It's a fun side project. I buy the occasional, graded card to see them in top shape. I hope to find the right Mantle at some point.

I grabbed a card off of a stack with honest wear to show here. I didn't like the Mantle he had for sale, but it may have been real. He needs to send it to SGC or whatever to sell it, especially online..Rob

That is probably the smart move, because there was a real good chance that card was fake anyway.

$12k for a raw "Mantle"? Crazy.... Not worth the risk! $5k may be.

It's unsettling that this example covers every basis for a real type 1 Mantle (as far as the many usual subtle details to look for), but many of us still can't believe that it's real.

I was always going to buy a graded one anyway when the time comes, but it'd still be very helpful to diagnose fakes with more accuracy. And for the other '52 Topps too, where the possibility of other fakes will have to be worked around on a regular basis

Here's a Coinky Dink for all you Mantle Fans!!!!

I believe I own the same card as the type 2 in your 1952 master set?

Of course it's been cracked out and into another holder, but here is a photo and a scan of the same card. In the scan, you can see the crease by the logo. When I bought the card, I did some research before the purchase to see if the card had been altered and I saw that same exact card and assumed it was the same?

I had a respected AH, associated with the sale of the card, tell me he made the flip...

What do think? Is it the same card?

what you mean 'made the flip'

:D:DFrom the card in Ted Z's original post with the old SGC label to my card with the new SGC label. I think that's what they call it a "flip".

I'm sorry, but the terminology is new to me. Flip, Flop, POP...whatever you call it, it's the SAME CARD. From one plastic container to another newer plastic container....

I was just curious how the card could be in someones "Master 1952 Topps set", yet the card is in my possession??? Unless, mine is FAKE, which is certainly possible? Maybe we can just add it to the Billion Dollar Fraud?

I know I sometimes post a scan of a card that I used to own, and forget that I traded it away years earlier. Maybe that's what happened here. Your Mantle has good provenance it seems...Rob

Definitely the same card, imo.

Curious what the answer/opinion is going to be on this?

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... what the heck is going on here? So Ted posts this SGC 3 Mantle above and tells people it's from his master set, and yet Chuck owns the exact same one? :confused::confused:

Based on the scans Chuck posted, it looks like that crease on the Yankees logo has been pressed out. :eek: The colors also look a little bit faded, so the card might have been soaked for a while.

Chuck, I want you to tilt this Mantle of yours under a lamp - is that crease on the Yankees logo completely gone?

No, the pic I have was taken by a camera with light.

The scan was taken from my reg HP scanner with the contrast up a little.

The card looks the same to me as Ted Z's with the crease. The crease was definitely there when I bought it. This helped me to determine it was the
same card and someone was NOT tryin to take the crease out.

The picture with the light, definitely hides the crease and mutes the blue, that's for sure.

The coin people use that terminology for getting the item into the holder by the company in a certain grade they were expecting. He was not saying he created the flip (although I can see the confusion).
Certainly looks like the same card; maybe Ted should check his set to make sure he either sold it and forgot, or report it stolen.

Thanks for the clarification. So I guess there are vintage cards out there that HAVEN'T been altered, right Chuck? ;)

I'm still waiting to see what Ted has to say about this.

:):)I don't know, 9-10 have some kind of shenanigans attached though :D

I did what I could to protect myself....AND some of you in this thread may wonder why I'm so pissie around here:mad::mad::D:D:D

furthermore, from my initial research, I found the card was sold @ auction:

June, 2016 for $17,569
August 2018 for $15,760

What year did you purchase it, Chuck?
This is getting interesting! :confused:

EDIT: Meant to add, there is a scuff/mark/blemish beside Mick's left ear on Ted's card but not on your's? Could be the scan or maybe it isn't the same card, which would be totally surprising to me, considering the other blemishes, if it weren't?

I purchased it from a local collector/dealer in person. May 2019'

When Ted Z responds, I'll take some more pics if needed.

I'm curious if you can look up cert numbers on the SCG website or if they have a registry like PSA? Is this card in a current registry anywhere? Is that even ethical?

I think SGC's new cert lookup and registry will be available Monday.

Monday, Feb 30.

:confused::confused::confused:

It's a long-running board joke, that when SGC claims it will happen Monday, it never does.

Hi Chuck

I just returned home from my 3 days set-up at the Philly Show, so excuse my delay in responding.

Yes, that was my Type 2 version of the 1952 Mantle. I recently sold it. My scan of the two Mantle cards is a couple of years old.

This Mantle was originally in my friend's collection. He acquired it in the Fall of 1952 when he was a teenager in the Smoky Mountain region of North Carolina.

Shown below is a scan of this card prior to me getting it graded by SGC.

There you go....how's that for provenance. I hope you are happy with it.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...mMantle50x.jpg



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

another great story ted!!!!

Hey redsfan1941

My long-time friend in North Carolina passed away several years ago, and he traded me his Mantle card while he was still alive.

So, shut up your FREAKING, SARCASTIC mouth ! !

YOU ARE DISGUSTING !


Sorry about this, every one here....but, this "JERK" has been posting this kind of "negative crap" for several years. And, I'm not putting up with it ANYMORE !

sorry for the misunderstanding ted

I would ask to see his other high numbers from the pack. if they kept the Mantle he surely kept the the other high numbers and probably bought more than one 1952 Topps high number pack?--just my thought.

THANKS Ted Z,

YES I love it. Thanks for the pic of the card before it was entombed, broken out and entombed again...Just stunning. Great to know the details about my favorite card!!! I have to say finding this out is what this board is supposed to be about.

I know the feeling when guys follow you around & jump your shit when you put your opinions out there and tear into you personally. There's a couple right in this thread :D:D This is about the cards and it's the reason we all keep coming back here. We all love them!

Sorry about your buddy, but know that the card will stay with me until I'm gone and I do appreciate it. Some of you might be around, others not the next time it goes for up for sale.

You know, I ran into my first thief in the Baseball Card business 46 years ago when I bought my first 52 mantle for $75.00. I was 13 and that was a lot of money in 1974. The card never came but I did receive 10 other cards and a $25.00 credit memo. Maybe that's what started my sincere distrust in the hobby? I finally was able to buy it back in 2019 for just a tad higher than $75.00

Thanks again for the info Ted

Here's a pic of the little baby today sunbathing out by the BBQ. It was a little overcast but she sure looks good!

Good Luck Jamie finding the one that's right for you!

+1

THANK YOU, Chuck, for your kind words.

The original owner of your 1952T Mantle is Ralph Triplette , who grew up near Asheville, NC. He was a Professor at Western Carolina Univ. We met in 1981, and our love and research
regarding the 1949 BOWMAN cards and 1952 TOPPS cards is what got us together back then. Ralph and I co-authored a very informative article on the 1949 BOWMAN set in the 1983
issue of Bob Lemke's Baseball Cards magazine. Here is a sample of it. So, if your also interested in BOWMAN cards, you'll find this article very interesting reading.


http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...dsMagazine.jpg . http://photos.imageevent.com/tedzan7...ardsMagP52.jpg


Take care,


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

VERY Nice, THANKS for the trip down memory lane.:)

I have said many times, I wish there was an 'owner registry' so you can look up a cert number to see if someone is claiming ownership. Can be annoymous or a way to send email where real email is hidden to find out if a card for sale is really theirs ..

or how about just being able to look up the number? That is pretty basic. I always thought I just couldn't find it on the SGC site and didn't want to ask:D

That is pretty stupid to not be able to look the card up? Why have a number in the first place? Anyway, according to the website and John, It's Monday and it will be up and running today!!!:D

Think of how many cards have been broken out of the slabs for both PSA and SGC and the numbers that are no longer valid, because they don't exist anymore? We'll there must be a million I tell ya :D

How come the top right corner of the graded Mantle look sharper? Just the scan or in fact got doctored? (sorry, i am not trying to open a can of worm here)

I don't think it's a good idea to do that! Eventually, the colors will start to fade! :eek:

Anyways, I got a surprise for you below:

Yep, that baby used to be mine. I was in my twenties and working like a slave inside a factory where temperatures would reach fifty degrees Celsius (due to the furnace). I was just saving all my money for a rainy day, until a buddy of mine showed me this fine piece of Americana. Yeah, the corners weren't that great, but the centering was outstanding! We quickly made the deal, and boy, I was so happy once I had this baby in my hands! I still remember, my family was like "you spent HOW MUCH? And for ONE CARD? OMG!" They nearly killed me!

And yes, I have since sold it. Big mistake though. Today an example with this centering is worth quite a bit.

It's Gorgeous! That smarts, but better off without it, IMHO

probably just a little doctoring...:D. The camera pics always look so much better than the scans. I think that could be the culprit of the "doctoring", I don't know? I think the card in hand looks right. There are only 2 other pairs of hands that touched the card. I now know where the card has been since 1952. That's pretty hard to do. :D:D very grateful to find out the history in any case.

1 pair of hands is a reputable AH (no, really) and the other is the guy I bought it from that worked with him to put the card in the new holder.

But you NEVER SAY never in this hobby, you know that.:) People will have to judge it based on all the pics when it goes up for sale, I guess and bid accordingly:)

Here's the scan again so everyone can take a ganders. Thanks for the opinions.

When Ted originally posted about having this card in his Master set, I assumed he still owned it and thought, did Chuck get taken somehow with a very good/excellent forgery/copy of Ted's card somehow?

Glad to read all is straightened out. I was beginning to think this doctoring/forgery thing had been taken to a whole new different level.