Reconstructing the 1963 Topps 6th and 7th Series Sheets
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When I originally thought about making this thread I didn't realize how much trouble it would be to make a visual of the sheets, I'm sure it would be much easier for someone who has experience doing that sort of thing. I will start by explaining what I believe is the layout of the sheets. I am certain for both series that the top of the sheet is the yellow based blue inset circle horizontal row, and the bottom 12th row is the red based green inset circle horizontal row upside down. It could be said that the red based green inset circle horizontal row is the top row and the yellow based blue inset circle horizontal row is the bottom row, but I will go with the yellow based blue inset circle row is the top row. I have scans of yellow based blue inset circle cards and red based green inset circle cards that were miscut and show that they were on the top or the bottom of the sheet with no card above or below them. I originally thought the layout of the 12 row sheet consisted of the yellow based blue inset circle row, the yellow based red inset circle row upside down, the blue based orange inset circle row, the blue based red inset circle row upside down, the red based yellow inset circle row, the red based green inset circle row upside down, and then those six rows repeated again. The problem with that is that I was able to find some miscut cards that had small parts of cards from a different color base on them and they were not working out to that pattern. I found a miscut Johnny Blanchard that has a piece of Larry Sherry, a Rusty Staub 4 player rookie card that has a piece of Tom Satriano, and a Steve Dalkowski 4 player rookie card that has piece of the 7th series checklist. So that means that the blue based orange inset circle row butted up against the red based green inset circle row, and the red based yellow inset circle butted up against the yellow based red inset circle row. After a little tinkering, I came up with what I believe is the layout of the rows. It goes yellow based blue inset circle row, yellow based red inset circle row upside down, red based yellow inset circle row, red based green inset circle row upside down, blue based orange inset circle row, blue based red inset circle row upside down, blue based orange inset circle row, blue based red inset circle row upside down, yellow based blue inset circle row, yellow based red inset circle row upside down, red based yellow inset circle row, red based green inset circle row upside down. I was able to find many wrong back 6th series cards that also help explain the layout of the sheets that I will talk about in the next post.
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I was able to find many wrong back 1963 Topps 6th series cards which are invaluable to trying to figure which cards were next to which. After looking at many of them I figured out what 1963 Topps wrong backs are, all of them are from sheets that had the whole back sheet printed upside down, which is very understandable considering that half of the cards were upside down on each sheet. I had noticed before that 1963 Topps wrong backs always had the same card on the flip side, for instance Glen Hobbie always has a Rocky Colavito back, Roy Sievers always has Tony Oliva on the back, Harvey Haddix always has Sandy Koufax on the back, Mickey Mantle always has Billy O'Dell on the back, and vice versa. When I figured that out I was able to ascertain with the 6th series wrong back cards that a yellow based blue inset circle card always has a red based green inset circle card on the back, a yellow based red inset circle card always has a red based yellow inset circle card on the back, a blue based orange inset circle card always has a blue based red inset circle card on the back, and then it is also true when the sides are flipped. The card in the upper right corner of the sheet, yellow based blue inset circle Curt Flood, will always have the card from the lower left corner of the sheet, red based green inset circle Jay Hook, on the back of a wrong back card, and the same is true with a Jay Hook front and a Curt Flood back of a wrong back. With that in mind, that is how I came up with how I believe how the rows go on each sheet in this order, yellow based blue inset circle row, yellow based red inset circle row, red based yellow inset circle row, red based green inset circle row, blue based orange inset circle row, blue based red inset circle row, blue based orange inset circle row, blue based red inset circle row, yellow based blue inset circle row, yellow based red inset circle row, red based yellow inset circle row, red based green inset circle row. With this pattern it fits in with every wrong back 1963 card that I saw, in other words a 1963 wrong back always has a front with the back of the card that is in the flipped position of that card on the sheet. These are the backs of some 1963 wrong back cards, they almost always have small parts of other cards and are not centered properly.
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I will explain how later, but I now know 23 of the 24 horizontal row edge cards and exactly which rows the manager cards, team cards, four player rookie cards, and the checklists are on. For the 6th series, the yellow based blue inset circle row has Jimmy Coker and Curt Flood as the edge cards and has Harry Craft and the Braves team card. The yellow based red inset circle row has the #509 checklist and the Bill Freehan four player rookie card as the edge cards. The red based yellow inset circle row has the #431 checklist and the Steve Dalkowski four player rookie card as the edge cards. The red based green inset circle row has Joe Azcue and Jay Hook as the edge cards and also contains Al Lopez and the Mets team card. The blue based orange inset circle row has Ruben Amaro and Jim Landis as the edge cards and also contains the Tom Tresh rookie trophy card. The blue based red inset circle row has Daryl Spencer and the Indians team card as the edge cards. For the 7th series, the yellow based blue inset circle row has Ed Sadowski and Don Cardwell as the edge cards and also contains the Cardinals team card and Sam Mele. The yellow based red inset circle row has the Dave McNally four player rookie card and the #509 checklist card as the edge cards. The red based yellow inset circle row has George Banks on the right edge, I haven't figured out the left edge card yet, and also contains the four player rookie cards of Gary Peters and Marcelino Lopez. The red based green inset circle row has Tom Satriano and Orlando Cepeda as the edge cards and also contains Danny Murtaugh and the Tigers team card. The blue based orange inset circle row has Hal Woodeshick and the Rusty Staub four player rookie card as the edge cards and also contains the Pete Rose four player rookie card. The blue based red inset circle row has Dick Hall and Mike de la Hoz as the edge cards and also contains the Willie Stargell and Ron Hunt four player rookie cards.
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Great project Cliff. Hope others more talented than myself are able to contribute
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It's a crude attempt, but this is how I believe the 1963 Topps 6th series sheet was printed. These are the edge cards of each horizontal row.
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The only cards that I have found so far of the 6th series that have parts of two different color based cards are Curt Flood and Steve Dalkowski. The card above Flood is a blue based red inset circle Daryl Spencer, and the card below Dalkowski is the checklist in the yellow based red inset circle row.
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great stuff. no sp's.
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It's crude and I need to learn how to learn to do better graphics, but this is how I believe the sheet layout of the 1963 Topps 7th series sheet goes, these are the edge cards on each row. I haven't been able to figure out what the left edge card of the red based yellow inset circle row is yet. Sam Mele and the Cardinals team card are on the yellow based blue inset circle row, the four player rookie cards with Gary Peters and Marcelino Lopez are on the red based yellow inset circle row, Danny Murtaugh and the Tigers team card are on the red based green inset circle row, the four player rookie cards of Pete Rose and Rusty Staub are on the blue based orange inset circle row, the four player rookie cards of Willie Stargell and Ron Hunt are on the blue based red inset circle row.
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I will break down what I currently have for each of the three 22 card color blocks of the 6th and 7th series 1963 Topps, I will start with the 6th series yellow block. The only cards I have placed are the four edge cards but I know of quite a few cards that are either next to another card or cards that are opposite of each other. On the blue inset circle row I know that Harry Craft-JC Martin-Eddie Kasko are consecutive, on the red inset circle row I know of three pairs of cards that are side by side, Jack Fisher is left of Joe Schaffernoth, Norm Bass is left of Roland Sheldon, Felix Torres is left of Bob Johnson, and these blue inset circle cards are opposite of their red inset circle counterparts, Paul Toth- Ray Sadecki, JC Martin-Felix Torres, Harry Craft-Bob Johnson.
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Cliff or others, how would one submit the good work on the 63 high series to beckett to get the publications aligned with the fact that there are no sp's here? Looks like Cliff has nailed them all. So if there is other information that we don't know about driving 1963 sp's let's hear it or go forward with this research as the facts. Hopefully 66 and 67 will play out the same way to identify DP, SP and XSP.
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I know I have to have better graphics so I will try it again. I'm nowhere near as savvy as Darren, but this is the best I can do for the time being. This is how I believe the top half of the 6th series sheet is laid out, I will do the bottom half in the next post. I'm almost certain that I know all 11 cards that are in each of the 12 horizontal rows in each series, the problem is knowing exactly where they are placed. It will take more miscut cards being discovered over time. ETA, the sheet splits up on cellphones which I was afraid of. ETA again, I messed up and have 12 spots in the horizontal rows when they should be 11.
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This is how I believe the bottom half of the 6th series sheet goes. ETA, the sheet splits up on cellphones which I was afraid of. ETA again, I messed up and have 12 spots in the horizontal rows when they should be 11.
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These are combinations that fit together in the 6th series yellow block but I don't know where they are on the sheet.
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These are the only combinations I have on the 6th series red block, I don't know where they are exactly on the sheet.
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These are combos I have for the 6th series blue block but I don't know where they are on the sheet.
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I finally solved something that has been bugging me the last few years. I haven't gotten to it yet, but the one row that I knew the order of most of the cards was the 7th series yellow based blue inset circle row. The only thing I didn't know was the order of the ninth and tenth cards, Billy Klaus and Russ Snyder, but now I do thanks to this eBay auction. It goes Cliff Cook eighth card, Billy Klaus ninth card, and Russ Snyder tenth card. Now I need to figure out the Pagan, Osborne, and Adair cards.
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I'll check my 63 set for series 6 miscuts tomorrow. |
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Further explanations are in this thread: https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=284250. The direct evidence is quite compelling that we are pretty close (well, Cliff is pretty close here!) to establishing the sheet via the miscuts.
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This is how I how believe the top half of the 7th series sheet is laid out, I will do the bottom half in my next post.
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This is how I believe the bottom half of the 7th series sheet is laid out.
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I could be wrong on the layout of the six 22 card color blocks on a 132 card sheet but this works out with all of the evidence I have so far. This Gary Peters rookie card has been a thorn in my side, though. I have it in the red based yellow inset circle row, but for the life of me I can't figure out what card that circle belongs to and it looks like it could be yellow rather than green. That would mean I have it in the wrong row. As of now I have Danny Murtaugh and the Tigers team card in the red based green inset circle row and the four player rookie cards of Gary Peters and Marcelino Lopez in the red based yellow inset circle row. ETA, it can't be a yellow inset circle card above this card because every 7th series red based yellow inset card has the name and position lower than the color circle and that would be visible. It's either a red based green inset circle card or some type of print defect.
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On the 7th series yellow based red inset circle row I have these four cards in consecutive order but I don't know where they are on the sheet.
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These are combos I have on the 7th series blue block but I don't where they are on the sheet yet. I just found the McLish-Osborne combo today.
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And finally, these are the combos I have on the 7th series red block but I don't know where they are on the sheet yet.
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Don't want to send your thread off on a tangent, but I'm wondering something. When the 1963 cards were in packs, were they all oriented the 'correct' way? It seems if Topps printed the cards that year with basically half of them upside down, would they have bothered expending the time and capital to make sure the cards were all aligned properly before putting them into packs??
Um...just did a search for unopened 1963 Topps packs, and answered my own question. The video I saw had the cards all over the place, right side up and upside down with no real consistency, so it was just as I imagined it would/should be. Cool. |
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1986 packaging
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I'm not sure if this answers your question, but this cello pack has cards in both directions.Attachment 408441
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It didn’t only continue in 1986, it continues even today in many Topps Sets. Upside down cards remain a thing in some issues, especially those with different color borders or partial borders that are presumably still printed the same way they used to be (albeit with much better centering)
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Arguably four of the five most sought after 1963 Topps cards were contained in the 22 card blue block on the 7th series sheet, the Pete Rose rookie card, Roberto Clemente, the Willie Stargell rookie card, and the Rusty Staub rookie card. I have figured out who is on each side of the Pete Rose card, it's between Ron Moeller and Johnny Blanchard, but not who is opposite of it or where it is on the sheet. It is on the orange inset circle row. Clemente is the 2nd card on the red inset circle row, has Dick Hall to the left and is opposite of Hank Fischer, I don't know yet who is to the right of him. The Willie Stargell rookie card is the tenth card on the red inset circle row, has Mike de la Hoz to it's right, and is opposite of Don Mossi, I don't know who is to his left. The Rusty Staub rookie card is the 11th edge card on the orange inset circle row, has Hank Fischer to the left, and is opposite of Dick Hall. There is a wrong back Clemente on WorthPoint that has Don Mossi on the back, which works out perfectly into my layout of the sheet if the whole back sheet is upside down. There is a wrong back Pete Rose rookie on WorthPoint but unfortunately it doesn't have a back scan or tell who is on the back.
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Cliff, do you have scans of all the cards from the sheets you're trying to recreate?
For the 1966 thread, I ended up downloading virtually all of the high number cards from COMC, and then bringing them into Photoshop to standardize the sizes. It took a crapload of time to make every file uniform (2.7" x 3.8" @ 200 DPI), but now I have a scan of each card at the ready to quickly plug in to the 'uncut sheet' layout document I created. I'd be happy to help with your 1963 sheet(s) effort, but don't have the time to grab all of the scans at the moment. |
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With everything going on on the site, I figured I may as well update what new cards I have figured out on the 6th sheet, plus the fact I messed up on my first try on this sheet by having 12 spaces rather than the correct 11. Unlike the 7th series, I have quite a few scans of wrong back 6th series cards. A wrong back 1963 Topps card is actually a card from a sheet that had the whole back printed upside down, so the card on the back is actually the card that is on the opposite end of the sheet. To put it simply, Curt Flood, the card in the top right corner, will always have Jay Hook, the card in the bottom left corner, on the reverse of a wrong back card, or vice versa. This is a work in progress, I may have to switch the two blue rows on the 6th series sheet as I get more information. I have a scan of the back of a miscut yellow based Paul Toth card and the only card that I can find that matches the sliver of a card opposite of it is a blue based orange circle Carroll Hardy, and that doesn't jibe with my current layout. This is the top half of the sheet, I will do the bottom half in my next post. ETA, it splits up on cellphone screens.
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This is what I believe is the bottom half of the 1963 6th series sheet. ETA, it splits up on cellphone screens.
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Slowly but surely, Gene Green is to the left of Barney Schultz so that means Gene Green-Barney Schultz-Dale Long are consecutive on the 6th series red based green circle row, red based yellow circle Steve Boros is opposite of the Tigers team card which forces the Tigers team card to be in the 7th series red based green circle row as I suspected it was, and I believe I may have found the final edge card I was searching for, which would put the Marcelino Lopez rookie card on the left side of the 7th series red based yellow circle row.
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I got the 1963 Topps miscut lot today, the only new one I could make out is Jose Pagan is next to the yellow checklist card in the 7th series yellow based red inset circle row. Unfortunately there isn't enough evidence on the Adair card to make out who is to the left or who is above the Cook and Klaus cards. I was already able to see Cal McLish is the left of Osborne and that Cook-Klaus-Russ Snyder are consecutive in the 7th series yellow based blue inset circle row.
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Ken Retzer is below Phil Ortega on the 6th series red based green inset circle row and Cuno Barragan is to the right of Wayne Causey on the 7th series blue based orange inset circle row.
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It's tough to find new 1963 or 1966 Topps miscut high numbers anymore, Duke Snider is to the immediate right of Hal Kolstad.
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Agreed. as we go through this research some years seem to have had better quality.
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great work on the 1963 set.One of the best sets for sure.
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I have found a few new 7th series parts of the puzzle, Bill Kunkel is next to Orlando Cepeda and can be placed on the grid, and I was originally convinced that Johnny Klippstein was the sliver next to the Dave McNally rookie card, but after I received the McNally card and scanned it next to a Klippstein card it just didn't jibe. So I went through all of the 7th series yellow based red circle cards again and found that Carl Willey is a perfect match. That works out even better because there is a four card run with Willey that can be added to the grid.
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Updated top half of 1963 7th series sheet. ETA, it splits up on cellphones.
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Updated bottom half of 1963 7th series sheet. ETA, it splits up on cellphones.
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reconstruction of 6th or 7th series
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Do any of these wrong back cards help?
Attachment 417640 Attachment 417641 Attachment 417642 Attachment 417643 Attachment 417644 |
Thanks, but I already have them. Wrong back 63’s are very informative, they almost always have parts of abutting cards on the back, and they are always the mirror of the card on the front. A wrong back 63 is always the result of the back being printed upside down, so that means Curt Flood, who is the card in the upper right corner of the sheet, will always have Jay Hook, who is the card in the lower left corner of the sheet, as the wrong back and vice versa. I was able to find quite a few 6th series wrong backs which was very invaluable to laying out that sheet, unfortunately I have found very few 7th series wrong backs. ETA, a 1963 6th and 7th series yellow based wrong back card always has a red based card on the back and vice versa, but a 1963 6th and 7th series blue based wrong back always has a blue based card on the back, which is a huge part of my hypothesis of how the sheets are laid out.
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Wayne Causey is opposite of Larry Osborne in the 7th series 22 blue based card block. There are two cards in the 7th series blue based orange inset circle 11 card row that have two different positions on their cards, Wayne Causey and Johnny Blanchard, but it is definitely Causey.
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I now have this combination but I don't know where they are placed exactly on the sheet.
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Great stuff Cliff..... watching where this comes out.
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Do the miscuts on the back of the wrong backs help at all?
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1963 wrong back
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Although you most likely have this one, I just saw the image so I thought I would post. Not only is it a WB, but the back is miscut as well, like you stated earlier.
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1963 series 6
There is currently a wrong back card for sale on ebay depicting a front of #466 and a back of #496.
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1963 topps series 6
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Ha! No wonder I couldn’t find it, the seller has it as TOOPS. Unfortunately it doesn’t show parts of other cards on the back but it does fit perfectly in the pattern of 63 wrong backs, the whole back sheet is always printed upside down and the back will be the mirror image of the card on the front. In this case the front is the top left edge card of the 22 card yellow block, and the back is the bottom right edge card of the 22 card red block.
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1963 series 6 wrong backs
These are the various 6th series wrong backs I have located: As you have noted, a card with a yellow banner & blue inset always has a card with a red banner and green inset on its back. Similarly, a card with yellow banner and red inset has a card with a red banner and yellow inset on its reverse, while the blue/yellow combo has blue/red match.
448 Jack Kralick (Y/B) 473 Mets Team (R/? G) 452 Barney Schultz (R/G) 499 JC Martin (Y/B) 459 Dick LeMay (R/G) 503 Braves Team (Y/?) 462 Wally Post (B/R) 511 Charley Neal (B/Y) 463 Joe Schaffernoth (Y/R) 493 Walt Bond (R/Y) 464 Ken Aspromonte (R/Y) 504 Bob Johnson (Y/R) 466 Freehan Rookie (Y) 496 Dalkowski Rookie (Y) 469 Jay Hook (R/G) 505 Curt Flood (Y/B) 472 Lou Brock (B/R) 488 Jerry Adair (B/Y) 473 Mets Team (R/? G) 448 Jack Kralick (Y/B) 474 Jack Fisher (Y/R) 500 Harmon Killebrew (R/Y) 475 Gus Triandos (R/Y) 482 Felix Torres (Y/R) 476 Frank Funk (R/G) 489 Paul Toth (Y/B) 478 Paul Brown (R/Y) 507 Roland Sheldon (Y/R) 481 Bob Taylor (B/Y) 495 Frank Thomas (B/R) 482 Felix Torres (Y/R) 475 Gus Triandos (R/Y) 488 Jerry Adair (B/Y) 472 Lou Brock (B/R) 489 Paul Toth (Y/B) 476 Frank Funk (R/G) 490 Willie McCovey (B/R) 510 Ken McBride (B/Y) 493 Walt Bond (R/Y) 463 Joe Schaffernoth (Y/R) 495 Frank Thomas (B/R) 481 Bob Taylor (B/Y) 496 Rookies Dalkowski (Y/) 466 Freehan (Y/?) 499 JC Martin (Y/B) 452 Barney Schultz (R/G) 500 Harmon Killebrew (R/Y) 474 Jack Fisher (Y/R) 502 Daryl Spencer (B/R) 455 Ruben Amaro (B/Y) 503 Braves Team (Y/?) 459 Dick LeMay (R/G) 504 Bob Johnson (Y/R) 464 Ken Aspromonte (R/Y) 505 Curt Flood (Y/B) 469 Jay Hook (R/G) 507 Roland Sheldon (Y/R) 478 Paul Brown (R/Y) 510 Ken McBride (B/Y) 490 Willie McCovey (B/R) 511 Charley Neal (B/Y) 462 Wally Post (B/R) |
1963 series 6 wrong backs
Forgot to list 447 (Mantilla) with 458 (Lopez)
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Doesn't the wrong back on McCovey force McBride (510) to be in C9 of the Amaro row and whatever card is on the wrong back of Monboquette to be in C10?
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And the Brinkman wrong back has to be next to the Freehan RC?
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1963 series 6 wrong backs
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I think you placed #511 next to Reuben Amaro (455). If so, does that mean this wrong back of #511 allow you to put #462 next to Indians team (502)?
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Sorry, meant Spencer (502), not Indians team
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I think the problem might be that you are using an iPhone and the sheet is breaking up into two. Here are pics of the top part and bottom part of the 6th series sheet that should show up correctly on iPhones.
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Here are some scans that I have that I have never been able to make a decision on which card is next to it with certainty. I believe it is either Neal or Savage to the left of Tresh but the scan is off of WorthPoint and I can't make it better quality.
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Based on the length of the thick, black frame on the Elston card, it would appear that the card below it must be either 519, 534, or 567
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The Bob Taylor miscut back would suggest that the card above it must be of the flavor Blue banner, red inset (probably not though) or more likely red banner, green inset.
It would appear that the only two possible cards would be 458 & 473. However, I thought you had mentioned that Kralick was above Sadecki. If so, then 448 (Kralick) has to be in Column 2. Then because of the Kralick wrong back, Mets team (473) will be in Column 10, and Taylor won't be above that card. Therefore, I would conclude that the card sliver shown on the Taylor miscut is 458, Lopez. |
1963 series 6 wrong backs
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Based on this wrong back of 479/486, I would expect the card above the Brinkman to be an upside down Yellow Banner, Red inset. The size of the frame appears to match up with that of Regan, 494.
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1963 series 6 wrong backs
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Based on the miscut of Braves team (503), the card above it might be Clevenger (457)
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Kevvyg1026, since I can't post scans in PM's I will answer your question here. You were wondering how I decided that Charlie Neal is next to Ruben Amaro and opposite of Bill Monbouquette. I couldn't remember so I went back through all of my scans and I think it was from this miscut Monbouquette which I decided had to be Neal. I think I took the sliver at the bottom of the front of the miscut Monbouquette and compared it to all of blue based/orange circle cards in the 6th series and decided that it could only be Neal. ETA: I believe I also based it it on the sliver showing on the Owens wrong back which is Post, and since I could place Post opposite Owens that meant I could also place Neal opposite of Monbouquette because there is a Post/Neal wrong back combo.
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Thank you for the explanation. There is a miscut 490 (McCovey) back where you can see the length of the personal stats/cartoon box frame. I went through all of the Blue/yellow (Amaro lead card) cards, and the cards that best fit were 510 & 511, which confused me since I thought we knew the positions of those cards.
However, I soon realized that the McCovey card also abuts the Yellow/Blue row, headed by Coker. Cards that can't fit are: 491, 499, 498, 503 (known strings don't mesh) as well as 456, 448, & 505 (know their places). That leaves 447, 450, 454, and 489. Of these, I felt that 447 (Mantilla) matched the frame size well. If 447 is the correct card under McCovey in row 9, then that would permit you to put 458 (Lopez) next to 473 in both rows 4 & 12. |
Based on the Regan miscut you sent me, the Yellow banner, red inset cards should be at the top or bottom of the sheet, rather than the Yellow-blue cards. That changes some of the layout.
Also, 489 Toth has a wrong back of Fred Funk (476), not Mets team (473) as shown in the scan. The Mets team wrong back has 448, Kralick. So, I think if Toth is under Sadecki (i.e., in column 2), then Fred Funk should be in Column 10 of the Red-green row. |
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