That SCP T206 Wagner
 

Ok, first off - fraud is abhorrent and something I will never fully understand due to the lack of pride and integrity one must have to engage in it - so i am in no way implying fraud when asking these questions. I became curious after being aesthetically bothered by the incompleteness of the Wagner.

https://scpauctions.com/1909-11-t206...ys-holy-grail/

So, a few questions:

1a. What are your thoughts on this card being “inauthentically completed” or “restored” as it says on some TPG flips?

1b. Assuming you are okay with other Wagner restorations (I would understand if not) Do you draw the line on adding material? If so - following questions do not apply.


2. Hypothetically, lets say it is okay. Does it matter how much of the card currently exists? What percentage of a complete Wagner would you say remains in that PSA holder (assuming the standard size of a T206 - not that of the Jumbo Wagner)? It does appear its slightly more than 50%, but is there an amount added that would then delegitimize the card from even being considered authentic?


Anyway, I was intrigued by the thought of this and wanted to see if you were as well. For those who dont want to click the link, here is the pic.



Attachment 491779


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Wagner
 

I actually had an opportunity to buy this card raw for $4,000. I knew what existed of the card was real but wasn't sure of how to sell it and passed.

Levi Bleam ended up with it and had PSA slab it Genuine. Grading was fairly new at that point and didn't think about getting it slabbed as it is or I would have bought it.

Levi auctioned it in SCD for around $7,700 is recall.

That would have been a good card to have bought and socked away until now.

That is pretty amazing! I see it is described as to have been in the consignors collection since 1990 or around that time. Is that probably about the time Bleam sold it?


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Kind of ironic the first 2 cards PSA graded were Wagners.
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PSA probably won't encapsulate the card again once it leaves the holder otherwise I am pretty sure SCP would re-submit it for the latest label regardless of what the label says.

Also ironic they are both altered!

Wagner
 

When I had the chanice to buy the card raw it was at a 1996 or 1997 Chcicago Sun-Times show, if I recall. It as a serial number of 2 but slabbed later than the first card.

If anyone has a library of SCD’s check for the auction by 707 sports cards in mid 1996 through end of 1997. I think you will see the auction for this card.

The reality is it is still an iconic card and some people will bid on it and it will be sold (unless a high reserve)
The bigger question is how much will someone be willing to pay for it

This card should remain as is, in my opinion. I'm not against restoration, but adding 45% of something else to this card would simply be bizarre.

As with a paper currency, it has to be over 50% there to count as "a card." It's logically impossible to have 2 or 3 "one card." Then you're dealing in parts of cards. I assume if it's less than 50 percent, PSA wouldn't grade it as a card anyway.

A question for someone here to figure out is how much of the card is there. Just eyeballing it, it looks like maybe 55 percent?

you be the judge on the %

this is not exact but I saved it as a photo on my iphone and saved as with the grid from the photo edit mode and from what I see there is 9 boxes of which

4 are full
1 is over 90% full
1 is approx 70% full
1 is approx 80% full
1 is approx 25% full
1 is approx 0% full

Except it appears that at least the entire right white border is missing.

If someone offered this or a really great condition 52 Mantle that would be a pretty darn tough call in my opinion. I lean to the nicer condition and slightly less iconic card I suppose.

my error. Sorry
Here is a better one to account for the missing border

4 are full
1 is over 70% full
1 is approx 70% full
1 is approx 80% full
1 is approx 10% full
1 is approx 0% full

You originally said "inexact"

So that adds up to about 70% of the card being there.

That is a great question. Also a tough one.
we have all seen many cards with alot of missing paper to it and we collect them and cherish them especially if they were rare, special combo of front and advertising back etc.

Both Cards are The Top of the Iconic Scale. The eye appeal on the Mantle would be high based on what you are proposing above.

However, with me being a pre -war collector and the Wagner being Highly Iconic and Rare I would chose the Wagner

I would not Restore it (especially it is not restoring to me it is replacing over 30% approx of the actual missing card)

I like the "Ripped in half" Wagner more than the "Lead pipe to the face" Wagner that underwent facial reconstructive surgery.

1a - without more info, I'm ambivalent about someone restoring it. I prefer original, no matter how bad the condition, but if it was mine and not in a holder I might print out the missing bits and make my own holder that would allow both to be shown together. Or.... maybe a transparency of the missing bits?
Not that I've done that for other really really bad cards in my collection, but a Wagner is a bit more special.

1b - I'm ok with properly disclosed professionally done restorations, which are typically done so they're somewhat easily reversible.
If it was mine, I probably wouldn't restore it.
An amateur hack job that wasn't easily reversible? Nope. Not a good idea at all.

2 - I think it's probably around 60%. Where we each draw the line at what's a card and what isn't is an individual preference. To me it's still a card, despite the major degree of damage.
Would I want a smaller portion of a Wagner? Yeah, if the price was low enough to actually be something I could afford. Or if I bought a scrapbook and there was a small identifiable portion on a page, I'd set it aside and call that huge hole in the collection filled.

I think that PSA potentially refusing to holder something like this as authentic is just silly. If that's how they are now, they should stop holdering a LOT of other stuff. Cancelled George C Millers, which if it's not the punch hole are literally half of a card. Anything that had a tab but no longer does. cards and panels cut from boxes.
To someone that knows the cards, it's just as tough to fake say 1/8 of a Wagner as it would be to do the whole thing. If someone is an expert, there's very little excuse for bailing on items that present a challenge. (Barring stuff like some stamps where the important bit might be say the upper right corner, but that's mising)

I don't know why it wouldn't go for a lot of money, being THE iconic card and all plus the rarity. 500K--1M?

Would be my guess - 400k plus.

Skinned cards are ~50% of a card and sometimes the front is thinner than what was skinned and therefore could be less than 50%. I have some OJ's where skinning removed a small percentage on the face of the card. Does that make skinned OJ's containing a nearly entire front but, less than 50% no longer a card?

If you cut a Wagner with scissors leaving 51% the bottom of the card and 49% the top then does only the bottom qualify?

If you "restored" the bottom half by adding 49% to the top you'd have a card worth less than the top restored with a bottom.

My point is that percentages and restorations will never be able have a standard metric. Cards, no matter how complete or doctored, slabbed or discussed are only as good as their appeal to buyers.

This is a really good point Eric

"If you cut a Wagner with scissors leaving 51% the bottom of the card and 49% the top then does only the bottom qualify?"

You have one card cut in two. Nothing's missing.

I'm waiting for Topps to buy it and cut it into 25 pieces, inserting it into relic cards. Then 25 more people could say "I own (part of) a T206 Wagner!"

Ouch! But not out of the question, for sure.

I hate myself for almost liking that idea.

Scary but I could see them doing something like that

No way should a card like this (or any card, for that matter) be restored.

isn't there another wagner that's been heavily restored? like 1/3 of the card added?

It won't be Topps it will be Fanatics and they will cut it into 100 pieces to maximize their ROI..
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I think everyone understood the example.

Nope, they'll cut it into 9 sections and encapsulate each one. Someone will buy the completely empty section for $10K. What an investment!

Heck, I'd pay $10K for the piece in the middle that is missing a small portion.

Attachment 492077

I hate the idea of altering them.

But, the one plus for owners of the Wagner is that every time somebody 'restores' one, that means the population of originals goes down.

If unaltered / restored I believe it is more valuable than a restored card. That is an amazing card!

Lol hi jarrod

+1 agreed

If they did that, I bet someone would pay six figures for the square that has “WAGNER” and the “PITT” of his jersey.

What if someone took a Wagner reprint card and cut it to fit, like a puzzle piece and then slabbed that? You'd still have the original Wagner unaltered and graded Authentic, but aesthetically more pleasing?

If I were the owner of the card, that is what I would want to do as well...with no attention paid to its affect on the resale value of the card, but simply for aesthetic reasons. The uniqueness and lore of the Wagner is not able overwhelm my personal need for a little bit more of the card.

This Wagner in its particular state is what is known as a conversation piece.

Agreed it is still a conversation piece

It is a still T206 Wagner

So we will see what the bidding brings

I would estimate that we have ~63% of the card. As far as restoration goes, it would entirely depend on the skill of the person restoring it, for my tastes. If someone was actually able to somehow rebuild it using a magical paper stock with neanderthal tattoo ink that somehow actually made it look original, then I'd be all for it, and I wouldn't mind it having a "restored" tag on the flip. However, if one of these hack jobs got a hold of it and botched the restoration to where it was obvious, then I'd want no part of it and would just rather have it as it currently sits. Although, with this particular copy, there is also a significant value aspect tied up in the fact that this was the 2nd card PSA ever graded. Hate them or don't, the fact that this is serial #00000002 is meaningful and definitely adds value.

I think it's a unique piece in this state. There are so many whole Wagners, this one is unique in its own unusual way.

Restorers work on artwork all the time. If I had the card, I would do some research and have it restored by the best I could find, for my own amusement, because WTF.

I hope it is kept how it is and not restored.
It will be interesting to see what it sells for my uneducated guess is $650k

That's close I think.... I would take the over though...I won't be bidding. :) I like big borders...
And I too almost always prefer leaving something alone and not restoring. That said on some photos and art pieces a little preservation helps.
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With a card of this magnitude, I’d say most of the potential buyers aren’t people on this forum but will be wealthy buyers that, while not particularly interested in collecting, will want an iconic card to show off to their wealthy, non-collector friends. If I were in their position, there is no way I’d be showing off half a Wagner and trying to convince people it’s important if I could restore it and have a whole Wagner. I’d be shocked if this doesn’t immediately go to someone to work on it.

I was going to toss this idea into the ring myself... except that I would have presented it as a legitimate suggestion. :eek:

After all, it's now becoming a "thing" where you have people buying "shares" of collectibles... for example, the British Guiana One Cent Magenta postage stamp, the most valuable item in the world in terms of weight. And I'm not saying this to be snarky, because I myself own one share...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ccb9148600.jpg

Told ya!

Anyway, the thing is that even though I own a share of the stamp, I don't have physical ownership, whereas if this specific Wagner was used to make relic cards, everyone who had one would have actual physical ownership of their piece.

I'm not saying I endorse the idea, I was just going to throw it out as a suggestion... but I see that it wouldn't go over too well in this forum, so I'm just going to shut up and sit down. :D

It is time to see what the bids bring.

It opened for bidding earlier today and it is at $270k before buyers premium

What do we think the over/under is now

I looked at it on the web site. No. I'd take it if someone offered it to me for a hundred bucks, but it is just too far gone to have any real appeal for me.

Already over $300K!!

https://catalog.scpauctions.com/1909...-LOT50061.aspx

Is it real?
 

Granted there are many folks on this board with more knowledge than me, and some have seen this card in person, but a couple things with the slab raise red flags for me. Again, recognizing that PSA grading was in its infancy this could have happened, but ...
1) The card is identified as "Genuine" rather than "Authentic". I don't know of any other PSA slabs with the "Genuine" qualifier.
2) The Zeros on the PSA serial number have slashes through them. In contrast, the first card that PSA graded does not have these slashes. I find it hard to believe that PSA would change their "number fonts" from card #1 to card #2, and I don't believe any other PSA serial numbers have these slashes through the zeroes.

I can reconcile the first part as being down to a new company deciding on grading language, but it's a bit of a leap for me to believe the second part.

Even though the SCP Wagner has serial number of 2 it was graded some years after the T206 PSA 8 with serial number of 1.

Most scans of the PSA 8 Wagner was after it was reslabbed at some point. There is a scan of the original slab with the same slashes in the zeroes in this link.....https://www.sportscardradio.com/aler...by-psa-or-bgs/

Most likely the reason it is in a genuine holder instead of authentic holder is that PSA would not slab it today and will not reholder it.

Interesting - thanks for sharing the insight!

Soooooooo, has anyone ever asked PSA what THEIR meanings and differences are between the grades of "Authentic" and "Genuine"? I would think this should be a legitimate question to ask of them, and for which they should easily be able to answer. Unless there's no one still working there from when this card was originally graded to remember why it was slabbed as "Geniune". I'd love to hear their official answer, rather than just speculating.

^^^ we need to ask David Hall!!

I think the other important question to ask is, why SCP does not re-holder the card. I have no doubt it is a real Wagner. But is that because it cost $50k to re-holder a Wagner?

And there is a clear example of a potential issue with a TPG having a possible conflict of interest, and why they should not be allowed to charge grading fees on a contingent basis, based solely on the perceived value of the card/item being graded. It is in the TPG's interest to grade something like this as at least being authentic, so it has value and they can charge an exorbitant fee. But what if there was a serious question as to the authenticity, if they say it isn't authentic, then the value is basically nothing and they shouldn't be entitled to charge and collect such a huge grading fee. And there's the potential conflict of interest.

Same reason it may be in a TPG's interest to not be so strict in grading trimmed and altered cards, and let them go through with numerical grades. The higher grades mean more card value, and therefore more grading fees for the TPG.

This contingent fee billing has been, and always will be, a very real potential conflict of interest for any TPG that uses that billing practice. If a TPG is truly honest, unbiased, and with absolutely no conflicts of interests, they should be examining each and every card/item they are grading the exact same way, using the exact same methods and procedures, and therefore taking about the same amount of time to examine each and every card, whether it's a '52 Mantle or an '87 Donruss common. And as a result, the grading fee for both should be about the same, and have nothing whatsoever to do with the value of either card. Anything else just shows and promotes the inherent bias and potential conflict of interest that absolutely exists in every TPG that conducts business this way in regards to contingent billing. This is not a debatable question, it is an absolute and irrefutable fact........period!

Well, since you don't want to debate it, let's just agree to disagree.

That is odd. I always thought we all always agreed with each other

This is such an oddity

Al,

If you truly don't understand what makes up and can cause a conflict of interest, and how that can be considered a potential problem when you are supposedly paying someone to give you their HONEST AND TOTALLY UNBIASED opinion, you really are better off saying nothing!!!

When dealing with someone that is supposed to be independent and unbiased, that independence should be in both fact AND appearance. So how does a company giving their subjective opinion on the condition of something that directly affects that items value, and therefore how much they can charge for giving that opinion, not in this or any parallel universe you could ever invent be anything other than a potential conflict of interest?!?!?!

Now if you were just trying to be sarcastic or funny, try making that a bit more obvious next time please.

Up to $360k with over 5 days remaining.

Agree. I'd put it this way: When you refinance your home and get an appraisal, would it be legal and ethical to offer the appraiser a bonus if she comes in with a high appraisal?

Mark,

It would certainly not be ethical. Not as sure about legality as it would likely vary by state, but can imagine it some type of fraud it they purposely inflated a valuation.

sold for $475,960. Reasonable price.

Scp
 

Was watching some of the historically significant photos in this auction, WOW! It won't be long now before photos are unreachable.

Agreed on both points the price was reasonable for that piece and those photo prices are started to gain pricing momentum

A fair price for the card, although I would have liked to see it go over $500k.

Regarding photos, I am not ready to dive into sports photos. But I did pick this type 1 photo up last night, largely because of the subject and the fact the negative was included

+1. Extremely so, I'm guessing this will prove to be a great investment.

Photos
 

I was looking at that MLK photo as well Ryan...it's beautiful. Some big prices on some of those baseball related photos last night.

Wonderful portrait of an iconic American.

Baseball Type I photos are the next thing to explode I believe. They’ve been fairly reasonable for the past couple of years. But as people can no longer afford a decent Green Cobb or decent Goudey Ruth, they will scramble for pictures of the next best thing.

Great!

Exactly! And in most cases the photo images are larger, clearer and much more rare.

It is not just photos people are jumping to. It is also happening with scorecards, tickets, and other items that are related to those players or have pictures on it.