ebay authenticity guarantee limits now 250/750
 

So every raw card listed at over 250 and every graded card listed at over 750 now has to be authenticated before going to the buyer. That has to be an astonishing number of cards daily, no? I am sure PSA looks very carefully at its own cards, many of which were graded weeks ago. Insane.

Crap, this will affect my poor ass now. As a collector of oddities and stuff the graders don't know much about (boxing) I have concerns they will reject perfectly good cards and make it a pain. Shipping delay is annoying and eventually being forced to pay off the graders for raw cards will be too, but this is my larger worry.

Is it still "free for a limited time"?

Yeah. But at some point someone will have to pay for the review, assembly in one of those stupid folders, and shipping. For graded cards this is about the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

Yes.

I'm guessing it will be the seller who ends up having to foot the bill...

Anyone know what they are going to do if PSA decides a graded card is not authentic or that the case has been altered? What if the card is misgraded? Would PSA have the authority to confiscate the item or remove it from the case?

No doubt at least until it gets passed on. I don't get it. I can't imagine buyers view this as adding any value for graded cards, and it's just going to piss off sellers and raise prices.

What happens when it's a card the graders don't know or touch? Like an unchecklisted cabinet card that PSA won't grade? Anyone have a direct experience with what they do under this program?

I wonder how PSA got the gig for graded cards, what with its backlog of subs over a year old.

Any chance anyone here knows someone at eBay that can explain or be interviewed on a sports card podcast? They must have a plan, even if it isn't being shared publicly right now. Would be great to know more about the terms/edge cases.

What if they decide the same about SGC cards?:cool::eek:

I could be wrong but I think they have the whole graded card gig. Someone please correct me if I am wrong?

This is my main worry too. Couple weeks ago I was the first to see a rare card I've wanted and haven't seen one for sale ever. Price wasn't a bargain, but I'm sure someone else would have bought it if I didn't. It didn't pass authentication, and they didn't say why. It's miscut, so could easily get an "Auth" if graded, but the seller didn't list a condition, so that shouldn't have mattered. Anyway, it ended well because I was able to buy it again and this time the authentication thing didn't kick in because it was less than $250. But my worry is you find a cool rare card, they reject it, then the seller sells it to someone else, and you miss out on it for no good reason.

I would think you could mostly avoid that result by communicating immediately with the seller once you find out about the rejection and offering to buy it again?

That is frustrating. Pay more, wait longer and potential issues in between. Especially with graded cards cannot say that makes much sense

I sold a PSA graded card to a Canadian buyer but it does not have me sending it for any authenticating. Are they not doing it for out of country sales?

I bought a set of "NM" cards on ebay. When I got the set the key cards had been pulled and replaced with beaters. I complained, and the seller said he sent NM cards and I must have replaced them myself.

A few months ago someone posted on Net54 that he bought a graded card for several thousand dollars and received an empty box. Seller said the card was in the box when it was mailed.

An intermediary like PSA can eliminate most of these disputes.

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I sold a Joe Choynski cabinet a little while ago. They made me send it to their authentication center.

I got a note that it didn't qualify for authentication as it was listed in the wrong section (Trading cards and opposed to photos, I assume), and sent it along to my buyer without authenticating.

That's better than what I was fearing they would do. Thank you

+1
Agreed.

Unfortunate this is why this procedure has become necessary.

My guess is it’s in eBays best interest to do this if it costs them a small amount to avoid not only the fake raw cards but also the scams where the card is never sent out since now they hold the money until it clears verification. This way they aren’t paying out item not received claims or incorrect item claims and the seller closing the account before the money can be taking back. Since it’s verifyinfnand not slabbing my guess is the cost at bulk for them isn’t much and is a much cheaper hit than refunds with their guarantee.

This isn’t much of a problem, need to wait a few more days to ensure not only the item is authentic but the seller is too. Considering during peak covid it could take months to receive a package I don’t see a few more days being an issue (only issue I have is I’m unsure how it is guarantee from authenticator to final address from loss or damage.)

Not really sure the point of grading cards that are already graded, but unfortunately this is the next logical step in the insanity of a TPG world that already has purple labels and Brent-approved stickers for how nice your grade is or is not.

I've been less than thrilled with eBay for some time, and for all practical purposes quit selling cards there about a year ago. Looks like my timing was pretty good...

Just a few more questions, is Ebay (or PSA or whoever), sending the packages out insured? What happens if USPS loses a package between the review and the buyer getting the card? Who is responsible?

They don't hold the money until it clears verification. I sold a card on Friday, May 13th, shipped it to the "authenticator" on Monday, May 16th and I received the payout in my bank on Tuesday, May 17th.

How often, though, does this happen, it must be an infinitesimal portion of transactions. To prevent those, is it worth putting nearly every significant transaction into this new mode? My own experience and I bet it's typical is that I have not had a problem with an ebay purchase in the 20+ years I've been buying. I mean, probably some graded cards were hacked but this isn't going to prevent that.

PSA is not authenticating the card. They are only authenticating that the holder has not been tampered with.

https://pages.ebay.com/authenticity-...dingcards/#faq

Peter, I doubt ebay is doing this if the issues are infinitesimal. Be grateful you are not a typical ebay buyer.

Al, I get the raw cards, although it makes more sense to me as an optional service if the buyer wants it. Graded, especially in light of what David just posted, makes no sense to me at all.

When I sold a card recently (already in a holder) on eBay and it had to be checked, the shipping label was directed to a specific named person at PSA. So my suspicious is they hired a bunch of newbies at least on the already graded piece of this and gave them a few hours training on what a holder and what a tampered with holder look like. And then say that's what you are to do for 8 hours a day, get going.

I kind of agree with Peter. Yes, issues are frustrating and time consuming when they happen on eBay, but I've been buying there for 23 years now and I would estimate my rate of "issues" with buy transactions to the point where I have to get eBay involved is probably less than 1%.

They aren't grading the card again, they are just trying to verify that the slab has not been tampered with.

Ok. But it is authenticating cards that have already been graded, which is very close to the same thing.

Sorry, but an experienced collector cannot tell this from the scans before they buy? If the scans are of such poor quality that I cannot tell on eBay, I'm not pulling the trigger. A card that has been tampered with or a slab that gets damaged in the mail was already covered by the eBay guarantee - which is actually quite good.

I'd rather the card get to me quicker and take the risk (that pays off 95% of the time or more) that everything is just fine than have to send an SGC slab to PSA so that PSA can say the slab is not compromised on every single card over a certain amount. Sorry, that's just silly. I've had slabs arrive that are cracked in a way I didn't notice before I bought them. I've either sent them back in working with the seller, or had eBay step in on the rare occasion where the seller didn't want to play ball. It always works out. I'd rather do that only when I have to and trust the process that works the rest of the time. I guess I get what eBay is trying to do, I just think it should be optional.

No offense guys, but pretty remarkable how many people had very passionate opinions on this before they even bothered to understand what it actually involved.

Ah, a sign o' the times . . . .

I don't think Ebay has anyone grading cards that are already graded. My understanding is Ebay is having PSA review the holders of graded cards to make sure they are legit and haven't been tampered with. Not sure if they're also supposed to review the flips to make sure they're legit and accurate a well. That, to me, is way different that re-grading cards that have already been graded.

It is also a bit concerning because how and when did PSA suddenly become an expert in reviewing slabs, especially any other TPGs slabs? The TPGs most likely all contract with outside companies to design and manufacture the slabs they put cards in, and have people in their employ just learn what they need to seal them. Not sure how that specifically qualifies any TPG as an expert to review and determine that slabs may have been tampered with, or that they are legitimate to the TPG that supposedly issued them. I would think someone with the slab manufacturers and/or their designers, and a background in plastics, would actually be a much better choice. And if they are also concerned with the flips, and possible counterfeiting of them, PSA will certainly have full access to all their own graded cards records to be able to check cert #s and such, but how are they going to have such access to other TPG's records? And on the surface, this also can easily appear to be an inherent conflict of interest in that PSA is now looking at other TPG's slabs and can raise concerns and issues about them, while possibly passing on concerns and issues that may exist with their own slabs. I'm in no way saying they're doing that, but it is usually best to be independent in fact, AND APPEARANCE, when doing something like this.

I'm guessing that the actual card graders at PSA have little, if anything at all, to do with this graded card slab authentication program they're now involved in with Ebay. Many people have voiced concerns about how PSA has a huge grading backlog they are still dealing with, so they question how can they take on additional work like this for Ebay? I'm guessing the slab authentication is handled by none of the actual card graders at PSA, and is really having no impact on their grading backlog and getting caught up on it. Just speculation on my part.

To me it's all just more noise on top of noise. Flooding the proverbial zone...

All of the respected TPG's have had major trust issues at some point in their respective histories. Whether or not they have recovered / earned trust again is largely up to individual collectors. Clearly the PSA base was not significantly, if at all damaged - by PWCC-gate and related events since 2019.

eBay suddenly raising their heads to care about this at all out of nowhere is amusing to me if nothing else - they never before and do not now have the first bit of common hobby knowledge about sportscards, and until now have not ever pretended to act like they care. This is the company that still highlights $200k Fleer Jose Uribe cards in my social media feeds, for cripes sake. :(

This is insane

Maybe the problem with counterfeit slabs is far worse, and getting worse, than believed.

When real good counterfeit slabs of high end cards begin to flood the market the hobby (as in all of us) is truly fu*ked.

At least the slabbed part of these seems to be a nothing burger to me and a net positive. Sold one card and it delayed the card getting to the buyer by maybe 2 days? When someone has to start paying for it it will be an issue.

For any sellers/buyers who would like to avoid having cards go through this authentication service/process for whatever reason, simply sell a card as a part of a "lot". Selling at least one additional card with the card that qualifies for authentication would, according to ebay's fine print, not have to go through this process as lots are currently not eligible for this service/process.

John.

Maybe it seems like just noise, especially for us collectors, but remember, cards are actually a very small part of Ebay's overall business. These things they do are likely being done from a more purely business standpoint, in mitigating any potential liability and other concerns, that may arise and scare off potential sellers and customers. Truth is, hard core collectors, like most of us on this forum, are not critical to Ebay's business, and Ebay virtually never thinks abouts or concerns themselves with Net54, or care what and how we feel about them.

Still, I can't imagine Ebay does things for no good reason. They likely view some of these things they are implementing as potentially heading off issues they feel may impact their business negatively down the road. And they don't have to tell us their real reasoning why! Unfortunately, not a lot we can really say or do, we just get stuck living with it.

No, I get it. eBay is the world's biggest garage sale. Hodgepodge galore, no specialization in any one area.

My comments on the last were pointed to the fact that they would seem to be implementing a very specific policy on something which they clearly have no expertise with. Maybe from a business standpoint they think it will help with the number of cases opened and returns initiated and that sort of thing, and that would be valid. But as to nuances of how collectors (and those that would consider themselves investors) would deal with the situation or the detail of operating practices for this TPG or that, you can't tell me that eBay has a clue. It's just an interesting proposition.

That's what I was wondering about as well. Sell that Cobb with a 400 count box of '88 Donruss and you're good to go!

I agree with you John, they have no special expertise. But just like how they suddenly decided to start collecting sales tax for every auction, I think a lot of their reasoning was that they figured that if they didn't, they could be losing sellers. Think of all the people selling on Ebay that don't really know, or want to know, about collecting and remitting sales taxes. Also, that would have called for all their sellers to start registering with various states for licenses to collect and remit sales taxes. My guess is that Ebay saw that a lot of sellers would be gun shy and not want to bother doing that, or ever put up with the hassle of sales tax collection at all. And Ebay probably figured that since they are such a huge marketplace, they'd have a target on their back from states looking to find out who was selling on their site and ask for info to go after them. Ebay actually sells nothing, and is not at all responsible for collecting and remitting sales taxes to states. I can easily see Ebay thinking that by going overboard, and working out a deal with the states to collect sales tax on behalf of all their sellers, the states would be happy, and the sellers wouldn't have to deal with this and register with states and keep track of all this. That way they stay selling on Ebay.

These other moves regarding authentication are likely some kind of a pre-emptive things they think will help keep customers and sellers for them down the road. I know there are lots of people who think this new authentication program by Ebay is a scheme for them to be able to end up billing more fees. I don't think this is a fee issue for Ebay, just more of a "making sure the customers are happy" thing.

FYI, eBay has also rolled out authentication services for sneakers, watches and luxury handbags. So clearly there is a bigger business focus here than sucking up to PSA or any of the other theories that have been advanced in this corner of the world.

Exactly, it isn't solely about PSA, CSG and card or slab authentication. It is a means to an end for them, to keep customers and sellers happy and coming back.

I forget the specifics, but my understanding on the sales tax decision was that a court case came down which put the handwriting for that on the wall. I'm not sure if eBay was compelled to put that in place by a certain date or if it was just obvious that they would soon be challenged if they didn't. I will agree between issues like this, and changes to policy such as surrounding authentication - it would seem more difficult to business on eBay than ever before.

When I first joined eBay, you could see full info. on both sellers and buyers, and even message competing bidders. I once contacted a bidder who kept topping me saying "Hey could I persuade you to let me win this (vintage scouting photo...) because my father-in-law is in it, and I would like to give it to him as a gift." The guy wrote back and graciously agreed. Can you imagine anything like that happening today?

Thanks Steve, that's interesting to know. Clearly as a business decision eBay can do anything they want, and most collectors who utilize them for the superior marketplace characteristics have no choice but to meekly comply.

How many of us have some kind of moderate / large issue with at least some aspect of how PSA does their business? I would guess most. How many of us continue to own and buy PSA slabbed cards anyway? :)

We all know that eventually this will just be another skimming center for eBay fees. Sellers will receive that "we just did something great" email ramming this 'service' down our throats at a cost, and eBay will skim its 3% off the deal for processing payments for this 'service'. The proof that this is a proposed profit center rather than a legitimate effort to protect buyers is in the complexity of the solution. The vast majority of card buyers are familiar with what they are buying. If you want the buyer to have a chance to look over a raw card purchase, the answer is simple: give all buyers three days from receipt to review their purchases and hold the funds until the three days is up. if the buyer decides to return the item during the return period, the funds are there pending proof of return to the seller. It is called "escrow" and it doesn't cost eBay a dime: eBay is already processing and holding funds. If the buyer doesn't apply for a return, then after three days the buyer is SOL. And don't do it at all for slabs--they are already vetted. But nooooo, eBay prefers a solution where everyone has to be inconvenienced and put at the mercy of a third party's (possibly bad) judgment. Why? Because eBay can make money off that process whenever it decides to force the cost onto sellers by charging its funds processing fee on the cost.

Why unveil this now? Probably because in their recent earnings call, eBay cited Gross Merchandise Volume (GMV) down 17% in the first quarter of 2022, year-over-year. Revenue down 5%. And the number of active buyers dropped 13% from 163 million in Q1 2021 to 142 million in Q1 2022. They are scrambling for revenue and imposing a new service and skimming yet another processing fee is a way to get it.

So when does the cost get imposed? I'd guess around Black Friday, just in time to force sellers to choose between paying the piper in order to sell into the holidays or telling eBay to get stuffed and scrambling for another platform.

John,

Ebay has definitely changed over the years, as you noted. They don't want anyone talking and sharing info so they potentially can have them go and deal off Ebay. They are just as strict and concerned with keeping their business with these other moves they are making as well. That seems pretty clear. I've worked with so many different businesses and business owners over the years, nothing surprises me as to the extent and levels many businesses will go for to see their goals achieved. Ebay does not have a monopoly on being an online sales platform, and they know it. Yet, they are the biggest and most well known platform out there, and stay there by being pre-emptive and taking care of things before they become a potential problem. This is all part of them staying #1.

Exactly. At best the current setup is a disproportionate solution that doesn’t really fit the problem. Oh, and it’s easily turned into a fee generating service…


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Exactly Steve, I think the authentication programs are to fend off customer concerns for fakes and bad sellers, and possibly weed out at least some of the bad/fake sellers at the same time. Keeps customer confidence strong, and helps the legit sellers want to stick around as well since this can potentially help them against scam buyers trying to rip honest sellers off.

And if Ebay eventually gets to make a little bit in doing so, they aren't going to turn it down obviously. I'm just not so sure, as some others seem to be, that profit is one of their main motives in doing this, unless you're talking about the continuing profit from having sellers and buyers on their platform. I'm referring to the idea of this authentication program for the cards necessarily being a new profit center for them as the main reason for doing it.

Seems to me that if eBay imposes a fee for this at some point it would have to be something the buyer elects (check the box) and shoulders the cost of. How could you force this upon a buyer and seller who decline to get involved? Doesn't seem possible.

Ebay is Satan's spawn because of the fraud and they don't seem to give a crap.

Ebay is Satan's spawn in trial testing a system to try to deal with fraud.

Some of youse guyze ain't easy to please.

I've always been surprised Amazon never really gotten more heavily involved in sports cards auctions & sales. They could run ebay out of business if they wanted to.

I believe (my opinion of course) that a lot of this decline in eBay sales and sellers has to do with the new 1099 requirement imposed on eBay, PayPal, Zelle, Venmo, etc. to report aggregate annual gross transaction revenues per seller over $600 -- which was part of the 2021 American "Rescue" Plan. The new service/skimming will ultimately not work and just shoo more sellers (and buyers) away from these platforms. It is fair to say that this new 1099 requirement makes unscrupulous sellers who under-report sales pay what they owe; on the other hand, many sellers (myself included) who report their card income to the IRS simply don't want the hassle of receiving a 1099 and will no longer deal with these platforms.

Scot,

You've hit the nail on the head!

eBay seems to have commenced a process designed to reduce or minimize fraud from sellers misrepresenting sports cards. Examples would be reprints, altered cards, or altered TPG holders.

So how many items are there on which eBay pay out refunds? If a seller knows that the item he's selling isn't genuine, that's fraud. If he's mistaken as to what the item is, that could create a civil liability, but maybe not criminal liability.

So, what is it eBay is trying to fix? Are they trying to minimize criminal fraud? Are they trying to reduce civil liability? Are they trying to protect buyers? Are they trying to retain buyers rather than have a buyer leave eBay rather than continuing to get burned?? Are they trying to minimize their own potential civil or criminal liability from providing a platform for problematic sellers to market their items to the unaware?

I think this move is geared toward protecting themselves from problems one day when law enforcement commences an inquiry or investigation about the selling of reprinted or altered cards or TPG slabs. Part of the problem with TPG is that people buy stuff not knowing what they're buying. Maybe like buying a diamond... you need to know and trust your jeweler. Most of us here aren't idiots, but how many of us can distinguish diamonds from other stuff with certainty? Most of us are better at spotting a reprint T206 or an altered T206 in amongst some real T206s. But there are lots of people out there who lack that discerning eye that most of us have.

Reckon the day law enforcement takes action is coming soon? Maybe eBay thinks it is.

Is PSA more capable of identifying altered slabs than they are at identifying altered cards?

If you are already reporting card income, why is receiving a 1099 a hassle? Is it because all that is reported is the total amount sold with no indication of costs (and therefore profit)?

I don't get that logic either. Most of the average person's income is already reported and papered: W2, 1099INT, K1, etc. What difference does it make if there is one one piece of paper in the pile? The tax reporting obligation remains the same regardless.

Of course. I'm just reflecting on how innocent it all once seemed to be.

Yeah, it may have seemed innocent to you and me, but to Ebay it has always been serious business to them. It is just that we maybe haven't really been paying attention to everything they're doing until more of these recent moves that seem unusual to many. I would think most everything Ebay does is calculated and with a purpose that they aren't going to just openly tell us about.

The same reason charitable deductions (not donations) went down when the IRS started requiring documentation. Overstating went down because of documentation and now understating is going to take a big hit.

Bob, the point of all this seems to be that the serious business and profit motive are not necessarily in the best interest of all buyers / collectors. Would you agree? Of course eBay is not going to advertise their motives in detail to their customer base.

I would think that this means that many are looking for ways around such formal platforms with fee structures and tax reporting requirements. To your earlier point, many (N54 is one) still exist, and I would guess that other ways to do business off the cuff would continue to arise.

Interestingly enough, the one thing I saw on Facebook last night related to this authentication model, and the customer was very happy with it. Of course he had just bought a '52 Topps #311, so that might have been worth waiting an extra 2 days for.

The burden for having the documentation or proof to validate your costs or deductions has always been there. Only thing is that might be different now is the impression that just because a 1099 is issued it means you will be asked to provide the proof. One should still have it even if it is never needed.

Accountability is only ever a problem when you really and truly do not want to be accountable...imo.

That's true. Again, I don't see how a 1099 is of concern to anyone who has been following the tax laws already. Heck, as a lawyer I get a 1099 from anyone who pays me. Stacks of them every year. Just a waste of paper since I keep proper books. Same with eBay sales: just keep proper books and the 1099 is just a piece of junk mail.

My uncle was a tax attorney in DC for decades. His advice: pay your taxes. Just pay your taxes.

Although I believe that the main issue and reason for reduced Ebay business in 2022 is because most sellers who previously weren't reporting their Ebay sales on their tax returns don't want to risk getting a 1099 and having to report those sales for income tax purposes going forward, there is possibly another issue/reason that may influence those who were already reporting their sales for tax purposes.

By receiving a 1099, that seller's activity is now formally entered into the IRS' system and subject to additional scrutiny and review as part of their automated system. ALL 1099's the IRS ever receives are matched to the recipient's respective income tax returns, and ANY perceived tax discrepancies or errors are going to result in an automated response from the IRS.

And maybe even more importantly to some, there is the intrinsic belief or perception that receiving a 1099 indicates the recipient is operating a business and acting as a dealer, and is therefore not an investor or collector. It at least opens the door for the IRS to come asking questions as they will likely assume the 1099 recipient is operating as a dealer in business as well. And lacking any direct evidence or documentation to the contrary, the IRS ALWAYS assumes the most negative impact to the taxpayer, until it is proven to them otherwise. All for which means the 1099 recipient should prepare and be ready for such questions in advance, and have answers and records ready to prove their purpose and intent to the IRS, if and when needed.

At a minimum, the negatives for being treated as a dealer include having all your net income always treated as ordinary income, subject to the highest possible tax rates. There is no potential long term capital gains tax rate limit of 20%/28% on business net income, that is only available if you can claim you are a selling items as a collector or investor. Also, being in business means that in addition to income taxes, the net income you make from selling your cards/items is now also subject to self-employment taxes (social security and Medicare taxes), which can be as high as 15.3% of you net taxable income from such sales, AND THAT IS IN ADDITION TO THE INCOME TAXES YOU'LL OWE ON THAT NET INCOME. On the plus side, you do get to deduct additional business related expenses you don't get as a collector or investor, but I can see many people not wanting to bother with the work and hassle of doing so, and dealing with the additional scrutiny it can bring from the IRS as a result.

So, there are possibly some other very good reasons for people not wanting to receive a 1099, other than just not wanting to have to report the sales income on their tax returns.

John,

I absolutely agree some business, like Ebay, isn't necessarily doing things for the benefit of their buyers and sellers, they are doing it for their own bottom line. Don't forget, Ebay is a publicly traded company since 1998, and answers to their shareholders, not their buyers and sellers. It just works out that in some instances, what is good for Ebay, is to be doing good things for their buyers and sellers so they keep coming back.

Ebay didn't start collecting sales taxes on behalf of all sellers because they wanted to. Same with things like these authentication programs. Ebay was doing well and making lots of money before instituting such changes, why would they suddenly decide to go through all the additional time, effort, expense, and hassle to do these new things if they didn't think it made sense to them from a business standpoint in the long run?

And as you noted, some of these new changes they've made are actually going to work against Ebay's business. Like sales taxes being collected on all sales now. Buyers hate that they are now getting hit with sales tax on everything. Just go back and read posts from some members on here in threads right after that new rule was put into effect by Ebay. So Ebay may lose some buyers from making that change. But in doing so, Ebay is likely also thinking about the additional hassle and work their sellers are going to have to now deal with in regards to sales taxes, and how that may drive many of them to stop selling on Ebay. So by taking on the sales tax collection, remitting and reporting obligation for all sellers, it removes that burden from them and makes them more likely to continue selling on Ebay. And something else many people probably didn't even consider, it also appeases many of the bigger sellers on Ebay who would have had to start collecting sales taxes in various states due to that Supreme Court decision back in 2018 regarding sales taxes for online sellers, South Dakota vs. Wayfair. Because of their larger sales volume, many of these bigger Ebay sellers would be forced to start charging sales taxes in many states, whereas the smaller Ebay sellers wouldn't reach those thresholds requiring them to collect sales taxes, and wouldn't ever have to charge sales taxes on sales made to other states. This would give an unfair advantage to smaller Ebay sellers over the big sellers, which would piss the big sellers off. By Ebay deciding to just handle the sales tax themselves on all Ebay transactions, it appeases all the sellers, and especially their biggest sellers, by not giving some of their competitors who otherwise wouldn't have to charge a sales tax, a price advantage over them due to the sales tax. Ebay may lose some customers who don't want to pay the sales tax, but they won't lose them all. But if you lose the sellers, there are no Ebay customers at all because nothing is being sold.

See the logic behind such a business decision? I'm guessing there is similar thinking and logic behind these other decisions and changes Ebay has been making as well.

Then don't be a business on eBay. eBay is no longer meant for scofflaws who want to hide taxable income or for dealers who want to pretend that they are hobbyists or investors rather than dealers.

Personally, I love selling on eBay because they determine, collect and remit the damned sales taxes for me. No muss, no fuss. Makes reporting my sales taxes each quarter a snap.

As for taxation, without getting into the specifics, filing as a business gives you a lot of flexibility in terms of timing, realizing and offsetting losses and claiming expenses.

What about the person that uses Ebay maybe a couple times a year to sell off a collectible they've upgraded, to generate some money for another purchase, or to cash in because they feel the market is right? Are they all dealers just because they used Ebay? See, this is one of the issues with dropping the 1099 reporting sales threshold from $20,000 down to $600. Someone who truly is just a casual seller and not really a dealer may now get targeted as being in an ongoing business because of the low sales reporting threshold amount.

Is someone who has a garage sale every year in a legal business? I don't believe so. So what is the difference if they use Ebay as their garage sale format instead, especially over these past couple of years due to the Covid issues? Using Ebay in and off itself does not a business make, which it sounds like you are kind of alluding to.

I understand what you are saying Bob but don't taxpayers have to meet certain qualifications to be deemed being in business? I did not think how the income is reported dictated that but maybe only played a part in whether someone was in business or not.

I've never paid taxes on stuff I've sold at garage sales (not that it amounted to much money). But then again, I never knew that we were required to... especially since virtually everything gets sold at a "bargain basement" style loss.

And what about the guy who sells his cards for cash, to a guy working the booth at a trade show? Or even the guy renting the booth, who sells the cards? I have a feeling these types of sales go largely unreported.

For people who have done mostly "casual" stuff, the threshold drop from $20K to receive a 1099 to $600 is a rather dramatic one. I'm not saying it's unfair, just saying in reality that is a big change. With the pandemic and more people than ever sitting at home and getting back into selling this that or the other, it was probably time for at least some shift in the laws; they were outdated at best for the state many forms of online commerce find themselves in today.

Or the LCS owner who offers a wan smile and doesn't charge you sales tax when you fork over a couple Franklins for something that caught your eye on a Saturday afternoon? Cash sales that go unreported and unreported income under certain thresholds will likely always be a thing.

And that's likely ties in with, and is not surprising that, ebay sent out emails titled "Tell Congress their new 1099-K rules are confusing and unnecessary" with details like:

"Companies like eBay are required to report sales to the IRS using a tax form called a 1099-K. Until recently, you would only get a 1099-K if you sold over $20,000, or more than 200 items. Starting this year, new legislation has lowered that threshold to just $600, even if that was from a single sale all year. Where it gets complicated is you’ll get this form even if you don’t owe anything, because not all sales are taxable–for example, if you sell something for less than you paid for it. That means millions of sellers will now get unnecessary tax forms, creating confusion and pointless paperwork–both for the IRS, and for small-time sellers who aren’t set up to deal with it.

Imagine selling an old bike for $800 that cost you $1,500 a few years ago. Since you didn’t make a profit, the IRS doesn’t consider that taxable income. But under this new law, you’re still going to get a 1099-K. And now you’ll have to prove to the IRS that you don’t actually owe any taxes on that sale, which makes for complicated accounting work."

Contrary to some opinions here, there are a lot of people selling stuff that are not a business on ebay, nor will likely become one.

Yes, but there is no specific, black and white list or measure to definitively say you are in business or are not. It is a grey area, to be determined by facts and circumstances in each unique situation. As I was saying, getting a 1099 can initially give the impression that you are operating a business on Ebay, and if you get one but fail to include the info from it on your tax return, when the IRS comes calling, do you think they'll view the income you may have earned from selling a card as a long term capital gain automatically? I don't think so. LOL That 1099 doesn't tell the IRS what you were selling. For all they know, you were selling widgets. So they generally assume the worst case scenario for taxpayers (and the most tax being owed to them), figuring that will get a response and explanations and answers back from the taxpayer.

The IRS actually follows a list of nine different factors they will look at to help determine if you are operating as a business, or if you are really in a hobby. The additional idea of being an investor for tax purposes is fairly new, and hasn't really been formally addressed by the IRS, yet, as sports cards being considered as true investments, like stocks and bonds. The following article lists the nine factors the IRS and their agents follow, which as you'll quickly see, are not yes or no, or black and white, questions or measures.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/is-thi...a-hobby-397675

These factors are really more for situations where someone in a hobby is trying to be able to deduct the costs and expenses of it against their other income. With the way card prices, especially vintage, have gone up in recent years, most people with vintage collections they've had for years will not be worried about selling at losses. However, look at a modern collector who spent a ton of money on a modern rookie, that ended up being a bust. He ends up dumping it for a big loss, and tries to use that loss to offset his other income on his tax return. Here's where those nine factors can come into play.

And I read ya loud and clear. There is no place on the tax forms to supply answers to those questions and it likely would not be until an audit that most people would even think about the 9 factors. I understand the implication of the 1099 and how it would make most people feel getting one.

Exactly correct, and why you shouldn't pay taxes on a garage sale. The government tax authorities realize that over time people may just sell off old things for a few bucks. They don't have the time and resources to go after such people, and realize that virtually everything being sold is old and used, and not selling for what was originally paid for it. Therefore, most garage sale/flea market sales are for a loss, so you would end up owing no income taxes on it anyway. Plus, you aren't normally running a garage sale all the time, maybe just once in a great while. So the tax authorities don't want to deal with all that info and detail, and just leave it alone.

But then we end up getting the internet, and online platforms like Ebay, Etsy, Craig's List, and so on. The initial idea behind these was really more of an online flea market or garage sale concept for people to get rid of their stuff on, by having a wider market. Heck, IIRC Ebay was started as a place for some collectors to sell their Pez dispensers among themselves. But times have changed and these former online garage sales have become big businesses, Amazon, Wayfair, etc. And then throw in an item like old sports cards, that used to be sold/traded for next to nothing for decades, and fast forward to today where they are suddenly going for hundreds and thousands of dollars. The rules and thinking are still changing and morphing. It is kind of like the situation with regard to sales taxes where the internet completely changed the idea of what really constitutes tax nexus and who should be responsible for collecting and remitting sales taxes. It wasn't until the recent 2018 SCOTUS ruling in South Dakota vs. Wayfair that we finally recognized a firm, specifically defined, measure to finally say for certain when someone should or should not be subject to having to collect sales taxes from online sales to other states they are not physically in.

People can still sell at a garage sale or flea market occasionally, and not have to worry about taxes. And they can also do the same thing using Ebay, Etsy or so on. But does doing so and using an online platform automatically change their intent and turn them into a dealer in a legitimate business? See how this can get grey and hazy real fast? There is currently no perfect, set answer that covers every possible situation. People selling for cash at shows and such will, at least for now, not have anyone chasing after them for tax reporting. Again, the tax authorities don't have the time, resources or the inclination normally to chase after them. Using an online platform though gives tax authorities the unique benefit of there now being a specific and precise record and detail of what someone is selling, and what they sold it for. It is changing the tax enforcement landscape and thinking by many state and federal (and local) tax authorities.

Yup!