The Aaron Judge Effect
 

I remember the summer 0f '61 well when both Mantle and Maris were in a HR duel to catch the Babe when Mickey got injured. I am sure many have seen Billy Crystal's great movie which captures the whole drama.
Now in 2022 with Aaron Judge on the cusp of breaking Roger's record, it seems MLB is on fire and as popular as ever. The fact that Aaron has a shot at the triple crown only adds more spice and the Yanks playing the Red Sox this weekend has led to high drama across the nation
All this, I feel is good for the game and the hobby. Maris' RC card has seen a nice spike in the past month.

I don't know how other people felt in 1998 but even to a then 13 year old it was fairly obvious something was off with McGwire and Sosa. I was not really a fan of that chase because it never once felt authentic.

This season feels completely different. Maybe not the same news cycle since Judge is on a level all his own and there's no competition between him and someone else. But this feels like a real race and it's the only time I think I've felt this way even though technically I've seen the record broken 4 times in my lifetime.

I disagree...Mcgwire and Sosa helped to revitalize a sport back then and made a less interested sport following the strike earlier in the decade, into a nationwide topic. Much like Judge is doing today.

That is what happened but I did not enjoy seeing two guys with obvious issues breaking the record. It didn't feel authentic. It felt like spectacle, which was popular, sure.

Maybe this is a better way of describing my feelings in 1998. You could watch a kid play a video game who was really good at the game, or you could watch a kid play a video game with Game Genie. Not really the same thing. Though perhaps equally entertaining to some people.

As a Yankees fan I am absolutely in love with Judge and his historic season. The single season AL record and the triple crown? Unreal. And if you've watched the Yankees season there have been plenty of games where it seems Judge is simply willing the Yankees to win. Hal better get his checkbook out!

As far as Maris & the value of his cards, IMHO he was the guy for so many years I feel his status is secure in the hobby. If his 61 HRs had been surpassed (for example) by Frank Robinson in 1966 I feel Maris would be more of a footnote. As is, I feel his cards will always be in demand.

^^^^ I agree with Packs. ^^^^

On a side note, it’s kind of cool to witness Albert Pujols’ assault on 700 HRs. Just one more to go with time running out. If he can do it, he’s in very limited company. Probably as great an achievement as Judge’s pursuit of “61”.

I understand where you're coming from, even if I got wrapped up in it myself, way back then.

I may be remembering this wrong, but what I remember most about that era...is how FAR these guys were hitting their HR's. Especially McGwire.

Nobody hit them that far before, except maybe occasionally Mantle, nobody has hit them as far since. Judge is a huge, athletic, strong guy who hits the ball a ton, and almost all of his HR's are no doubters...but he doesn't hit them anywhere near as far as McGwire's longest dingers during his St. Louis heyday.

Don’t forget that Maris broke the record in an expansion season. Other than 1961 he never hit more than 39 homers.
I guess steroids allow you to hit the ball farther.

Judge seems like a good guy so I'm rooting for him. Both he and Pujols have made an overall lackluster MLB season interesting in the end.

The other thing I find interesting is the lack of price explosion on Judge cards. I admit I haven't followed the pricing much. But a quick search of eBay shows very reasonably priced Judge RC cards. Usually, it seems that in the past there would be a huge uptick in prices. I wonder if it's because 61 isn't the record anymore. Still, he has a legit shot at a triple crown as well.

https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=31818

I think that aside from the huge number of cards out there, and the recent down tick in prices, there’s also the belief that he’s a late bloomer and a big guy with a big strike zone who has had a past history of big guy injuries, that may make several career counting stats unattainable for him. He may shine really bright for a short while, but is he more Albert Belle/Josh Hamilton/Juan Gonzalez then he is Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays or even Mike Trout?

My prediction is he both ties and breaks the record against Boston. Seems only fitting.

Yes, but league-wide HR rates were only up a few percentage points in 1961 over the few years prior.

1958: 0.91 HR per team per game
1959: 0.91
1960: 0.86
1961: 0.95
1962: 0.93

My guess is that is because the HR rate on the expansion teams pulled the average down.

Living in NY, it seems weird to me how little most people seem to care generally about the Judge saga. Yankee fans are ga ga of course, and many baseball fans are paying attention, but it doesn’t feel like everyone has stopped to pay attention. It’s weird. Was just in bar in penn station and people seemed more interested in a bad football game. Yes, when judge comes up there is a crowd watching. But its not the broad hysteria I sort of assumed it would be for such a historic record. Maybe it’s just a sign of the times. And this is coming from a massive fan of baseball in general.

Maybe a little of it is all the debate as to what the legitimate record is and what number we should be looking at.

For me, it's a neat moment in Yankees' history. I'm an Astros fan, so I watched the Astros' game. If Jose Altuve closes in on one of Bagwell's Astro records one day, I don't expect Yankees and Mets fans to be glued to the screen to see it live. When Judge ever starts to close in on 73, I will get an Apple watch to see it.

Judge is the honest number and should be celebrated as such.

Some of that supposed lack of interest may be because he technically has not broken, or even really tied, any records, yet. PEDs or not, the official MLB record for homers in a season belongs to Bonds at 73. Not everyone is as big of a baseball purist when it comes to issues and questions with PEDs, but to the average person Judge isn't even within single digits of the record yet. Also, football is a lot more popular than it was in the past, and many have said/felt it has actually supplanted baseball as America's pastime.

Now, if Judge were sitting on 70 homers at this point, i think it more likely the interest and hysteria you were expecting would be in place.

Still, a great season by Judge, and expect him to beat both Ruth's record within 154 games, and Maris' within 162 games.

I disagree. He is chasing a record: the AL home run record. His company is Babe Ruth and Roger Maris. That gets my attention.

I totally agree with you.

Completely agree on this.

I can see the excitement for Yanks fans, but honestly other than a passing interest during the day's sports highlights this has little impact on my day to day. I also think the comparison made earlier to a "Albert Belle/Josh Hamilton/Juan Gonzalez" type career for Judge is a strong one. He seems like a good guy and the comparison should not be considered a slight. I just think he will be a relative footnote long term for the game. However anyone can get into the "Hall of Nice Guys We Haven't Found Fault With Yet", so hell he's got as good of a chance as anyone on that list.

but wandering franklins and jayson domingos cards are worth more...PSA 10 1 of 1, 16 names. Maybe this Tony Vulvo kid is the next ty cobb? His rookie cards sell for more too. Maybe cobb doesnt pop and that's what all collectors want. Pop.

Too bad Pujols doesn't pop with 700 homers.

What do you mean by footnote, though? I don't think Roger Maris is a footnote. If you're a serious baseball fan, you know his name and what he did and whose record he beat. If Judge hits 62 I think he'll occupy a similar space. Some people still think of Maris as the "true" record holder. When I think of footnotes I think of guys like Earl Webb, the all time single season doubles record holder.

I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that MLB is as popular as ever, or even as popular as it was in 1998, but it's always fun to watch players pursuing hallowed numbers. I expect Judge will end up with 62-64 HRs for the season, but what's really going to be a nail-biter is the pursuit of the Triple Crown. And while none of this is a record per se, he's also likely to be the only player other than Ruth himself to ever lead the league by 20+ HRs. Pujols is on a trajectory to finish with 700 or 701 career HRs if they start him for the rest of the season. I'm rooting for both of those guys, but the actual MLB record of interest to me rests with Framber Valdez, currently sitting on 25 consecutive quality starts with a chance to tie deGrom and Gibson's MLB record tomorrow night and break it next week.

All of this while Shohei Ohtani is outperforming his historically significant 2021 MVP year and Justin Verlander is outperforming his own historically significant MVP season, well, it makes for quite a season for those of us with intersecting interests in baseball and statistics.

Yours......yes, but not the vast majority of people who don't ever think or realize there even is such a record just for the AL. Especially now with interleague play and all, many people don't really think of JUST the AL, or JUST the NL, they think of it as MLB and view the real record as 73.

Not trying to crush or downplay anyone's interests in those pursuing various records. But as one poster noted, he is interested as a SERIOUS fan/collector, and the truth be known (and I know this is going to be tough to swallow for a lot of people on a site like this), the majority of people out there are NOT anywhere as serious about baseball and such records as you all are. It isn't a good or bad thing, just what it is in reality.

Now if MLB had come out and declared that Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa were all definitively guilty of cheating through their alleged use of PEDs, and discredited and disallowed all their homeruns and records, THEN Judge would be going for the legitimate all-time record, AND the interest and excitement might be a lot more like what you were expecting. But MLB didn't do that, did they?

I don't watch baseball like I used to anymore for many reasons.....still love collecting the vintage stuff though - from my youth and before - cards, game used stuff, autos, etc.....

So - I'll probably be watching replays when Judge hits 61 and beyond...which I look forward to...

From my perspective though, Maris is no footnote....He still holds the 162 game record for most home runs....PERIOD....Mac, Sosa and Bonds were juicers....cheats....plain and simple....

I know many of you here will disagree but that's what makes us all different!

Good luck to Judge....He seems like a good guy....The Maris children should be proud that their Dad's 162 game schedule home run record lasted 61 years...

IMHO

Well said!

There have been a lot of articles and sports talk lately about what people view as the true record. It is a topic of conversation. I would say many casual fans do still view Maris as the record holder. Legitimate is a matter of opinion.

Reminds me a lot about when Drugged Earwig asserted that Hammerin Hank was the real home run king.

As a giants fan, this article always tickled my funny bone:

https://www.mccoveychronicles.com/pl...-king-ray-king

No one is arguing with you, but my responses were in regard to the posts about surprise being felt that there wasn't a lot more excitement and talk going on everywhere among fans and the public in general, in regard to Judge's achievement and going for such a record. There is not, and this is not, a debate about whether Bonds holds a "legitimate" record or not, it is an attempt to answer a question/comment posed about why more people may not be as excited about Judge's achievement than some others, and overall, displaying much less excitement and interest than they expected from the public in general.

The simple facts are that:

1. Not everyone is a serious fan and follows baseball as closely as others, so they truly don't care much, if at all, about what Judge is doing.

2. MLB still lists Bonds' 73 homers as the all-time single season record, so many people view that as the recognized record.

3. That someone would post saying they are surprised about the overall lack of excitement and talk surrounding Judge, shows that they have obviously underestimated the number of people that do fall into the categories I pointed out my first two fact points.

If you have any other, logical, intelligent, and/or common sensical points or ideas to otherwise explain why there may be less overall expected excitement and talk seen out in the general public surrounding Judge's achievement, I am happy to listen.

Even if you erase from your memory, Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa, and Gonzo and Ortiz, etal.... Giancarlo Stanton hit 59 in 2017 for the Marlins. I don't remember it being a big deal at all.

I think a Triple Crown would be cool, but it's not a daily must see like a hitting streak. Cabrera did it a while back and I bet Tigers fans loved it. I thought it was neat.

I commented after another poster referred to Maris being the record holder. I don't have any thoughts on your comments about waning popularity.

I'm not sure if I meet this standard, but I enjoy hearing myself talk, so here goes:

1) As much as it pains me to admit it, baseball is nowhere close to being as popular as back in the good old days. 50 years ago, there was baseball, and then a big Big BIG step down to #2. These days, you could reasonably argue that the NBA and the NFL are legit contenders, likely even surpassing MLB, particularly in the public consciousness. And that's before we even get to all of the other sports that are surging in popularity. Soccer. Tennis. Hockey? Pickleball??

2) There's a lot going on these days that is competing for attention. A short list:
a) Some war
b) Nuclear weapons, this is not a bluff.
c) An election in 6 weeks, on which the very fate of the universe rests. THE UNIVERSE!!!
d) Inflation
e) Interest rates
f) Stock market craziness
g) The pandemic is over
h) Something about the border
i) England has a new king

So you add it all up, and Judge's run is amazing for those of us paying attention. But for the rest of the world, it's on page 23, in small font, buried behind the latest thing that happened with the Kardashians. I'm not saying it's right. But that's just the way it is.

If I were to accept the proposal that the "true" record for 162 games is Roger Maris' 61, and Judge hits 62 this year, then I would expect everyone to accept Yordan Alvarez as the all-time Home Run King when he hits 63 next year. We all know Alvarez would not be considered the King in that scenario, which is why I won't think Judge is the all-time record holder if he surpasses 61.

There is a lot of craziness in the world right now and a lack of consumer confidence…..baseball and major league sports are the last thing on a lot of people’s minds right now…..as I said above, I don’t watch the game like I used to, but I do think there is good buzz over what Judge is doing right now and he’s a good guy and I think fans in general really like him - not just Yankees fans…you guys closer to the current game may truly feel the buzz is down and we all come at it from different perspectives…

Major League sports in general - specifically the big three - NBA, NFL and MLB have lost a lot of fans over the past few years…..due to their embracing of social issues - not getting political, but it’s a fact….those three have bent over backwards to political and social issues that I find just outright illogical….not the issues themselves, but how the Leagues react to players, businesses, sponsors, media and politicians….We just want to watch the game! …..an example was moving the All Star game out of Atlanta which made no sense to me….if you move the game from Atlanta for a certain issue, why not just eliminate the Braves as well?

The NHL has been the net gainer of fans the past few years…..and I see that trend continuing…..

Good luck Aaron on getting 61 and beyond…..I’ll be following even if I can’t sit down in front of the tube every time you get to the plate….

I truly don't believe professional sports have taken a hit from their stands on any issues. I think interest in professional sports has waned for the same reasons why golf course membership is dying, bowling alleys are becoming extinct, college football teams can't sell tickets like they used to, no one goes to movies like they used to, no one watches the grammys and academy awards like they used to, . . .on and on and on. Just read last week that Disney attendance is way down at one of the parks.

With the growth of life online there are just so many distractions and avenues to go down to amuse yourself. And people just aren't as social as they used to. When I was growing up, parents held parties every weekend where folks from the neighborhood would show up with meals and people would get drunk, have the occasional screaming match, etc. Today it seems are barely able to wave hello to their neighbors.

Different times and people have changed to.

I really enjoyed the game last night, even though I am a true Red Sox fan :mad: and thought maybe they would pull it off. Hats off to the Yankees for playing like a team with so much attention added - looking forward to the weekend games!

Jimmy

Tonight's Yankees game is not on t.v. You'll need to have an apple+ subscription, or sign up for a free trial to see it via streaming. It's why I made the apple watch joke.

Red Sox - Yankees …..doesn’t get much better than that…..

The real question is….how much is Judge going to make next year!?!?!

Agree. In my circle of people and crotchety old men in my family, including some very close relatives......the ones complaining about sports losing fans because of stances around social issues and sticking their nose into "politics", are the same crotchety old men who are the first to bring up politics at the dinner table in the first place.

When Maris hit his 61 hrs, he was battling Mantle for the title most of the season. The interest was there because there were two players in contention.

Maris held the record, 62 will not be the record and will be a footnote. It will have no mention in any record book (other than Yankees team records) and no ball will sit in the Hall.

As to anyone going on the notion of the game as some platonic ideal existing before the big bad performance enhancers is patently false and the reason why the HOF is a joke. Today's players are more than likely the cleanest in history with the tightest rules but you can make a salient argument that Tommy john surgery or even Lazik is a performance enhancer not had by previous generations so that beat will go on forever.

I can pretend that Willie Mays and Mantle did not take amphetamines (Mantle is an excellent example because the reason he was out of the race in 61' was a botched shot from a known doctor giving cocktails of speed and steroids), but that would be ignoring facts. I can pretend the deadball pitching records were not exacerbated by a legal spitball and a high mound. I can pretend that the first record of attempted steroid use was not by a HOF member in 1889. I can pretend that Lyle Alzado was not stacking steroids in college in 1967 and I am supposed to believe that something that easy to find was untouched in the major leagues even while legal until the mid-80's. I can pretend a lot, but that's just sitting in a bar and ignoring what really happened and just accept that life goes on.

We can't erase history any more and need to just move on. No matter what, the record is not 61 in any book. It is a great season for Judge and I will give him that for sure, but not historic.

It's the AL record.

LOL

All good Nicolo!

I get accused of typing and saying too much all the time, so was trying to keep my comments and reasons as short as possible. Was actually asking that as more or less a rhetorical question of those who seemed surprised by the lack of interest in Judge's feat. All additional great responses and reasons though.

ok, I stand corrected, It will go in the books for that reason.

Apologies for that omission.

And I'm all for that being a thing, although I'm not sure that it's all that meaningful in the modern game.

But sometimes, we have some silly stats/records out there. Highest batting average against left handed pitchers with last names starting with V under a corn moon comes to mind as one that I'm sure we'll see in the near future.

I'll have to keep my fingers crossed for Verlander to still be playing in 2025. ;)

I mean, everybody has a different acceptance level for certain things. I don't think the AL HR record is exactly some marginalized new age stat, brought into play recently by the Sybermetric nerds.

....and I don't take very seriously Cy Youngs and Jack Chesbro's pitching wins stats, or Hugh Nichols single season stolen base record either.

I'm a Yankee fan, and I'm not going to start spouting that Judge is the single season king...but I do think it is very ground-breaking what he is doing...especially in a season when offense and HR's among his peers, is traditionally down.

Turns out I was wrong about it being news.

WSJ has this headline in yesterday's paper:

Aaron Judge Courts Home-Run History
The likable Yankee slugger chases baseball’s ‘clean’ record.

The last paragraph is good fun:

As Mr. Judge chases history and the good feelings spread, I can’t help but wish that my father were here to see it all. He was no Yankee fan, and he wasn’t shy about voicing his disgust with today’s “overpaid prima donnas.” His heroes all had off-season jobs and knew how to bunt. He would have delighted in Mr. Judge’s run at the record.

I broke out my "All Rise For The Judge" t-shirt for the first time in a couple of years, and wore it to the neighborhood Publix yesterday. This is Red Sox land down here. Fenway South, otherwise known as Jet Blue Stadium is here. Both the Twins and the Red Sox hold spring training here, but make no mistake, the Red Sox own this town. My Judge shirt got lots of comments and compliments. People down here know what's going on, and yes, it is being talked about and seen as a big deal. When Red Sox fans compliment a Yankees accomplishment, it is a VERY big deal.

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree if that’s ok? - I am 60 - I hate politics but many, many of my friends have left baseball and football as well….sick of the kneeling, moving All Star Games, athletes bashing politicians on both sides of the aisle in public forums, changing team names ( Cleveland ball players are Indians - not Guardians ), owners chasing the money, etc….one person gets offended and the world crumbles…

I want to watch the game….I want to enjoy the players talents…..that’s been taken away from us….I want to be a kid again…..and it’s as clear as daylight….one of many reasons why I don’t watch as much…traveling for work and family demands being the biggest issue with not being able to watch more…

But I still love collecting vintage stuff!! Lastly - good luck Aaron! Hit as many as you can this year!

Judge is currently winning a triple crown. How does that impact his season if he holds on? Personally if Judge wins the triple crown and hits over 61 home runs he’s had one of the greatest seasons of all time.

WADA disagrees with you. They consider MLB's testing and penalties inadequate. Tim Montgomery set the world record in the 100 meters. If you look in the record books you see no record of him ever setting the record. He was one of BALCOs clients along with Barry Bonds.

We certainly can erase the history of cheaters. That is the international standard of sports. Lance Armstrong won zero Tour de Frances. You are entitled to believe Bonds holds the record just as anyone else is entitled to call Maris the true record holder and if Judge hits 62, the new record holder.

The kneeling was never shown live on television until it became a story.


QUOTE=JimmyC;2266820]Well, I guess we can agree to disagree if that’s ok? - I am 60 - I hate politics but many, many of my friends have left baseball and football as well….sick of the kneeling, moving All Star Games, athletes bashing politicians on both sides of the aisle in public forums, changing team names ( Cleveland ball players are Indians - not Guardians ), owners chasing the money, etc….one person gets offended and the world crumbles…

I want to watch the game….I want to enjoy the players talents…..that’s been taken away from us….I want to be a kid again…..and it’s as clear as daylight….one of many reasons why I don’t watch as much…traveling for work and family demands being the biggest issue with not being able to watch more…

But I still love collecting vintage stuff!! Lastly - good luck Aaron! Hit as many as you can this year![/QUOTE]

Couldn’t agree with you more….there have been 23 perfect games I believe? But only 12 Triple Crown seasons….you can be off the charts for one game…..hard to be off the charts for an entire season…...a very rare feat indeed….

Per CardLadder, Judge's market is up ~196% over the last 6 months (since the start of the season). It's not huge, like 10x, but given the ultra modern market as a whole is down, that's pretty good.

Cheaters plain and simple
 

Right on!!! Correct.....Period

What Judge is doing / may do is of interest to Yankee fans. And that's about it. He isn't in a home run chase. When driving along an interstate I'm not chasing or racing mile markers, I'm just passing them. Judge is clicking off home run markers.

In 1961, Mantle and Maris were hitting home runs, and the country started looking at the possibility of one or both reaching Ruth's 60. Mantle and Maris had each other for competition. In 1998, McGwire and Sosa, on different teams, did the same. Some baseball analysists and historians thought it revived the interest in baseball that had been hurt by the 1993 strike. Takes at least two to race.

I saw McGwire and Sosa that year. Batting practice had a different quality to it. It reminded me of Church. Quieter, and with a bit of reverence. When either stepped into the batting cage, it got quiet. Players in the dugouts stepped up to see. Fans watched. Ushers and vendors paused. And when a ball was well hit, Ooo's and Aah's replaced the Amen's. And the voiced acclaim extended if the ball was arcing up into the stands.

When I think of 1998, my mind shifts to NASCAR when the haters voice disdain for McGwire and Sosa. As a disgruntled and disagreeable teenager, I saw my first NASCAR race in 1971. I didn't want to go. I became a convert that day, I saw Richard Petty win the Daytona 500. As I slowly developed a bit of interest in the sport, I discovered this stuff about 1970 and the Plymouth Superbird, that car with the high spoiler wing so that it was slightly higher than the roof of the car, getting it up into clean air when the car was at speed. in 1970, Petty won about 18 races with Superbirds. It violated no NASCAR rules of the day. But NASCAR changed the rules. For Superbirds to run in the 1971 season they'd have to reduce horsepower; and the cars weren't selling well at dealerships so the requirement about having the number of cars sold having to equal or exceed 2 x total dealerships was going to be a problem. My point, MLB's steroids / PED ban commenced in 2005. McGwire and Sosa didn't break any rules in 1998, there weren't any. There were rules as Clemens ended his career with the Yankees. And for A-Rod at the end of his (more on A.Rod later). Bond's had his 73 HR year in 2001, before the rules. He only played in 14 games in 2005 (was he pausing to get so he'd pass substance tests?). He hit 54 HRs total in 2006 and 2007, enough to get him past Aaron... So you guys can lump oranges and apples together, but you should at least recognize the differences.

Who was the first baseball player to be suspected of using Performance Enhancing Drugs? May well have been Pud Galvin, who's already in the HOF.

A-Rod. He didn't play in 2014, he was suspended. If he'd played (and some other 'if's like testing clean or not testing positive), then he'd have easily passed 700 and he'd have had a likely shot at passing 714. Reckon MLB and NYY wanted him to pass Babe Ruth? I think not. And that one year suspension did it. Maybe management would have held him out of games and 'rested' him if he'd have gotten close. (Reminds me of Whitey Ford winning 20 games or more only two seasons. What I recall is that management didn't want Whitey winning 20+ games, because they didn't want him using that when bargaining contract salary. Publicly, the Yankees were resting him a bit, not working him to hard, so he'd be fresh for the World Series. There were a bunch of those.) And it reminds me of how 100 years ago and a bit, the Cubs let go of Ed Reulbach, and he was picked up by Brooklyn, then the Federal League Newark team, then the Boston Braves. He ended up with only 182 wins. But the owners held him out (I believe) because he was active in the Baseball Players' Fraternity, he was an officer. Owners didn't like that. I think the owners denied him 25-30 wins. That, with his 2.28 lifetime ERA, his career hits allowed each season was always fewer than his innings pitched... The owners, GRRRRR. They didn't keep him outa the Hall, there was no Hall at the time. But I think he'd be in now if the owners hadn't clamped down on him, and others, for advocating for players' rights. Imagine what they'd have done to Curt Flood.

A lot of the time I find myself hating on something. I guess us haters are gonna hate. Let's put a bit of information sauce on that portion of hate.

One more thing... in baseball trivia, did you guys see which player from the 1960's appeared in the most World Series games? I saw him play in two WS games, but I didn't know the answer.

Was it Roger Maris?

What will be the most popular name for children of baseball fans in the next year?

Henry Judge

or

Aaron Aaron

Well, I think there is more interest in what Judge is doing than just in the Yankees universe, Lol.

But he seems to have gone into a little hitting funk. Pressure?

Yes Dave, Roger Maris.

1960, 61, 62, 63, and 64 for the Yankees, winning in 61 and 62.

1967 and 68 with the Cardinals, winning in 67.

That's a lot of World Series play. He was a pretty good ball player.

Rules? What Bonds and the steroid cheats did was basically against the LAW. You can't get em from your buddy.

Besides that. Judge is doing it clean (we assume) so 60 is a big deal.

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Also don't forget that back during Maris' time, many ballplayers were known to be taking amphetamines to improve their focus and "twitch" muscle reaction time. And I seem to also remember having heard that the Yankees were one of those teams that supposedly always had a pot or two of coffee on during games back then, oftentimes laced with amphetamines, that some players would drink during games for that additional caffeine/amphetamine rush. Is it possible Maris may have taken part in using this to his advantage as well on some occasions?

Sure, but then you get into effects--- did the "leaded" coffee have the same benefits as steroids?

What the steroid guys did was next level---it made a great Bonds immortal but to me he is the home run king, and massive cheat.

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And let's not forget Ruth, you know the Babe was boozed up or recovering from a night out many an at bat. And that was during Prohibation, so you want to talk about breaking the law.

They all did what they had to do during their time period.

I thought the McGwire Sosa first season head to head was TREMENDOUS!

Who care's if they were juiced, about 3 guys on the planet hit the ball like that and 80/90% were doing it and they couldn't do what Sosa, McGwire and Bonds did.

And I'll say that one season Bonds had was the greatest by a hitter I ever saw. THAT TOO WAS TREMENDOUS!!!

I don't know, do you? Having additional muscle strength is great, but even if you're stronger, all that strength won't do you a damn bit of good if you can't swing and get the bat on the ball. I've never seen or heard how PEDs like Bonds and others allegedly used improved hand-eye coordination, bat speed, eyesight, or other attributes or abilities that would help them to get the bat on the ball. It is possible for humans to work out like crazy to build muscle mass and strength without illegal steroids and PEDs, very hard, but still possible. Are there similar things humans can do though to increase that focus and "twitch" response time naturally, without the use of heavy doses of caffeine and possibly other chemicals or substances?

With a lot of the short fences today, and the increased velocity that modern pitchers overall seem to throw at, all a smaller guy really has to do is get the bat on the ball solidly to then use the increased energy in that pitch to send it over the fence. Newton's third law of motion/physics, I believe. Strength alone is not the sole, main factor to hitting home runs. You possibly looking at players taking 'roids/PEDs and claiming they took cheating to the next level isn't necessarily wrong, but it might be a little short-sighted in not also recognizing that the use of caffeine/amphetamines is technically using a type of PED as well, and in the end just as wrong.

Throughout the history of baseball, many players have done things on an individual basis to cheat and gain an advantage. To me though, what really constitutes taking cheating to the "next level" is when you have a team/organization working in a joint manner where many people are working together to cheat and take advantage of an opponent. To me that would be the ultimate unpardonable sin, and anyone found involved in such a collusive activity should be immediately banned from MLB for life. And we've had that happen, yet MLB didn't really do a damn thing to anyone involved, did they? And to me that is an even worse offense than what the conspiring cheaters did.

I also thought I had read/heard somewhere that Ruth got caught using a corked/juiced bat once as well.

The fact is that MLB didn't have specific rules in place against the use of PEDs at the time. The home run competition between those two helped boost MLB in the aftermath of the strike that had taken place earlier in the 90's. MLB was eating it up, and taking every advantage they could to make money off what the PED users were doing.

Stan, I guess my concern is the Tatis Jr. story. I feel like we are still in the steroid era. Bonds is not a past tense era guy, he's in this era.

No, compare what Tatis took to what Bonds took. And there is not the rampant usage happening today.

So we think.

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I agree MLB / Selig should be vilified for allowing this to happen..but Selig is in the hall! Joke.

And yeah you can tell the effects....Mcgwire/ Sosa / Bonds basically doubled their HR output and grew monstrous in size.

They're professional baseball players they can get the bat on the ball lol. They don't need to learn to make contact like Rod Carew. And now instead of flying out to center it sails over the fence.

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I honestly don't know what they do. I'm saying I take the numbers with a grain of salt. Why does Baltimore have a 20 foot wall down the left field line that is 384 feet away?

Yeah I thought it was all TREMENDOUS too until I learned it was not legit.

Seasons like Judge/Pujols are what MLB needs, not steroid cheats.

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That's my point. The devil is in the details...

Deflating a ball isnt the same as fixing a World Series...

I think we have to examine each case and then debate/determine where it lands on the pantheon of cheaters.

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This article about the Maris family and their POV on the record is from 2011:

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/articl...rd-2308400.php

And again in 2022:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022...ron-judge.html

Amen.....

Any chance Judge and/or Pujols will be later discovered to have engaged in questionable performance enhancing activities?

It might be a little premature to spike the football and proclaim these two players to be cleaner than the driven snow. They might just have better chemists.

Especially in light of the fact that Pujols is almost definitely not actually 42 years old.

Judge looks like he has the weight of WW3 on his shoulders. I suspect a better manager like Dave Roberts or Buck Showalter would be pulling this guy aside and helping him relax a bit more. One shot after another in the dugout last night and not one smile or a laugh.

Having the Maris family there for days on end. . . . .that's got to build up the pressure.

Not that he was listening to the broadcast last night, but was hard at time to remember a game was actually going on. Seemed like 1000s of shots of him sitting on the bench staring emotionless at the game. And then when the announcers started saying completely ridiculous nonsense about the game some continuing in a break in the monsoon that was hitting the area I went to bed.

In actuality most of the known supplements taken by many of these players were available at the local GNC and most banned but not illegal substances still are. The Androstenedione that was in the legendary locker background for Big Mac and caused the media stink was being taken by myself admittedly along with some much more powerful agents. Andro is still not illegal, but banned for import since 4/11/2004. Certainly, I can't say this was a harmless activity as I have had cancer twice now and I have no idea if they were interrelated. Most of these supplements were not banned in the US until after the home run chase due to the media focus. As to the Balco type drugs, "The Clear" was legal until 2005 as they were new inventions that the laws had to update to reflect these as illegal as well. The 70's-80s base steroids (Decastacks) were very legal and found in any gym or back pages of weightlifting magazines until 2/27/91 when they were made schedule 3. HGH is also still legal as it gets and available to anyone with the money to get it (check for any "anti-aging" clinic near you and I will bet that you can walk right in for HGH shots and Testosterone supplements/shots/or cremes).

I was an industrial mechanic and a private security agent on weekends for extra money in the early 90's. I was constantly injured from one-shouldering 250 lb worm drives and VFDs while working on mezzanines 40 ft in the air. I took them to heal so I could bring in income for my family and worked out daily to avoid being on disability. I took nothing that was permitted in MLB, but nothing I could not buy easily on line or at GNC. The breaking laws argument is a myth, the breaking league rules after those dates was the only "crime" per say.