1965 Topps Series 6 semi-high Sheet Reconstruction
 

Series 6 from 1965 had 77 cards in the series, so SPs exist. Reconstruction of the slits will be exceptionally difficult because significant miscuts are scarce. However, there are some available, so I am trying anyway.

Here is some additional information in case anyone wants to chime in.

From what I can tell, Topps used the following pattern for the locations of the checklists in each series:

Check 1 (both versions) were in C11
Check 2 was always in C2 (both 1st & 2nd series printing)
Check 3 was always in C11 (both 2nd & 3ed series printing)
Check 4 was always in C2 (both 3rd & 4th series printing)
Check 5 was always in C11 (both 4th & 5th series printing)
Check 6 was in C2 (5th series printing)
Check 7 was in C11 (7th series)

So, I would expect Series 6 (# 443) to be in Col 2 while Series 7 (508) to be in Col 11 for the 6th series printing.

I think the series 6 (443) printing variation has the nearly complete m in #481 (series 5 printing of 443 has the mostly cut off m). The series 6 printing of series 7 checklist (508) should be the larger print version.

And here are a couple of miscuts, offered as a tease.

Attachment 619214

Attachment 619215

Attachment 619216

Attachment 619217

1965 series 6 Boyer
 

As can be seen, Boyer is most likely above two different cards, Banks and another with a black border.

Topps did use a team-related coloring scheme in 1965 for the borders.

I didn't know JollyElm (Darren) had a horizontally severe miscut 1965 Topps 6th Series Ernie Banks, the card to the left of Banks is Gene Freese who is definitely a 3x because of his low quantities on eBay and elsewhere. That makes the 1965 Ernie Banks a SP (3x). It will be nearly impossible to ever figure out the 1965 6th Series 77 card layout but it would be nice to at least figure out if the key cards (Carlton, Banks, Mathews) are 3x or 4x.

1985 Topps series 6
 

Here is 453, Dodgers RS, next to 506, Mele

Attachment 625715

I don't believe I was even aware of this thread, but wouldn't have been much help anyway, because I forgot I had that Banks miscut in an album page somewhere. :eek:

It's cool that you found it and it helps a bit with the sheet layout mystery.
(If it wasn't for you meddling kids, Topps would've gotten away with it!!)

#486 Angels Rookie Stars has a dark green border card to its left which means that is has to be a Brave or a Red Sox card. In the 1965 6th Series there are Geiger, Braves Rookie Stars (Niekro), O'Dell, Woodward, Ritchie, E Mathews, Red Sox Rookie Star (Guindon), and Cloninger. The card to the left of the #486 Angels Rookie Stars miscut has a design flaw where the white bio/stat box has the white jutting out in the bottom left corner. I checked all eight cards and all Cloninger cards have the same design flaw, none of the other seven cards have the design flaw. That means there is a sequence of Nellie Fox-Tony Cloninger-Angels Rookie Stars on one of the 4x rows.

#477 Cardinals Rookie Stars (Steve Carlton) has Manny Mota to its left, since #463 Manny Mota is definitely a 4x because of its quantities on eBay and elsewhere that makes #477 Cardinals Rookie Stars a 4x as I suspected because of its quantities available. That means of the three 1965 6th Series key cards, Ernie Banks is a 3x, Cardinals Rookie Stars is a 4x, and Eddie Mathews is very likely a 3x although it isn't confirmed yet. ETA of the other two key cards, Yogi Berra’s last card and Phil Niekro’s second year card, I am pretty sure Berra is a 3x and Niekro is a 4x.

Here a miscut 450 Howard and ?, if that helps?

1965 series 6
 

Elston Howard is a card in C1; the miscut shown is almost certainly Joel Horlen, so Horlen is also one of the 7 C1 cards. Howard is also at the top edge of one slit.

The wrong back currently posted on ebay of Niekro (461) make that card a C11 card.

Great info guys-thanks-really appreciate!!!!

Joe Cunningham is to the left of Vern Law on a 4x row, Sammy Ellis is to the left of Ron Piche on a 4x row, and I couldn't get anything to match that black ink spot on the Ritchie, it might just be a stray mark.

Kevin found this miscut, Ed Rakow is to the left of Sam Mele on a 4x row. ETA this makes a three card run of Rakow-Mele-Dodgers Rookie Stars on a 4x row.

I figured out who that is to the right of Jay Ritchie, the tip of the glove in Bill Henry' cartoon fits perfectly. That means there is a Ritchie-Henry combo on one of the 3x rows.

I think Dodgers RS is a RE card, so that would put these cards in columns 9, 10, & 11

Bob Kennedy is to the left of Cookie Rojas on a 3x row.

I have changed my mind on the 1965 Topps 6th Series, the availability of horizontal miscuts makes this Series viable. Manny Mota is to the right of Joel Horlen so that makes the first three cards of a 4x row Horlen-Mota-Cardinals Rookie Stars (Steve Carlton).

Ron Perranoski is to the left of Tom Haller on a 3x row.

Lee Stange is to the left of Billy O'Dell on a 4x row.

This was an easy one, Ken Rowe is to the right of Ron Piche which makes a three card run of Ellis-Piche-Rowe on a 4x row.

I don't think this one has been mentioned on this thread, the Yankees Team card is to the left of Gene Stephens on a 4x row. Stephens also has an Athletic/Cardinal to his right that is either Ken Harrelson or Phil Gagliano, they are both 4x.

Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal) is above Phil Gagliano, both are on 4x rows.

Stu Miller is a header (LE) card, that means six of the seven header cards are known, Bob Priddy, Ed Mathews, Elston Howard, Stu Miller are the four 3x header cards, Jim Owens, Joel Horlen, and the card under Mathews in the miscut are the three 4x header cards. I believe I have the third 4x header card down to either Nellie Fox or Indians Rookie Stars through the process of elimination.

Here's a cool combo, Ernie Banks is to the left of Yogi Berra. The back designer made the Y in Yogi too big (which I'm glad they did) and it shows up on 1965 Ernie Banks cards miscut to the right. That makes a three card run of Gene Freese-Ernie Banks-Yogi Berra on a 3x row.

Phil Gagliano is above Richie Allen somewhere over the two Slits, Gagliano is on a 4x row and Allen is on a 3x row. It is probable but not guaranteed that there is a combo of

Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal)
Gagliano
R Allen

in a vertical column.

Ron Locke is to the left of Sammy Ellis and Gary Geiger is to the left of Ron Locke, so that makes a five card run of Geiger-Locke-Ellis-Piche-Rowe on a 4x row. First, Locke is to the left of Ellis through the lines on the Ellis cartoon that show up on miscut Locke cards. Second, Geiger is to the left of Locke because the Brave/Red Sox card to the left of Locke on the miscut has to be a 4x card and Geiger and Billy O'Dell are the only two still available and it can't be O'Dell because every one of his cards has a flaw of a piece of the E in PRINTED in the copyright line on the back missing, the E on the Locke miscut is complete so it has to be Geiger.

This one messes up my count of what I had as the 33 4x cards in the Series because I thought John Buzhardt was likely a 4x, but he is the only card that matches up to this Tracy Stallard miscut. That means at least one card I have as a 3x is actually a 4x, I also have Earl Battey and Cap Peterson as 4x cards but their quantities are in the questionable range. The Tracy Stallard-John Buzhardt combo is on one of the 3x rows.

I'm just about out of new combos until I find more, the card to the left of Ed Rakow is a 4x Brave/Red Sox card and Billy O'Dell is the only one left. All O'Dell cards have a design print flaw where the white bio box bulges out in the lower left area that matches the Rakow miscut. That makes a run of Stange-O'Dell-Rakow-Mele-Dodgers Rookie Stars in C7-C11 of a 4x row.

Here's an interesting one, the card to the right of Rowe is an Oriole/Astro, the Orioles and Astros are Rowe, Grote, Owens, Siebern, Nottebart, Orioles Rookie Stars, Stu Miller, and Nellie Fox. The only 4x cards out of those eight are Rowe, Owens, and Fox, it obviously can't be Rowe and Owens is a header card, so that means it has to be Fox. That makes a big run of Geiger-Locke-Ellis-Piche-Rowe-Fox-Cloninger-Angels Rookie Stars (Egan) on a 4x row. This would also eliminate Nellie Fox from being the seventh header card. ETA I have since figured out that cannot be Nellie Fox to the right of Ken Rowe so that eight card run cannot be correct.

These are in the oh-so-close category, 4x Frank Kostro has either Ken Harrelson, Cardinals Rookie Stars, or Phil Gagliano to his left, 4x Jim Owens has either the Yankees Team card, Ken Harrelson, or Phil Gagliano to his right, 4x Gene Stephens has either Phil Gagliano or Ken Harrelson to his right, 3x Ray Washburn has either Al Weis or Ron Perranoski to his right.

It is Ken Harrelson to the left of Frank Kostro on a 4x row.

With this miscut Nellie Fox I found I am obviously wrong about Ken Rowe being to the left of Nellie Fox, it appears to be a black border card to the left of Fox. I don't know who that could be to the right of Rowe, the 4x cards of Fox and Owens are not available. The only thing I can come up with is Jerry Grote is a 4x with inexplicable low quantities, hopefully it is eventually figured out. If that's a black border card to the left of Fox then it can still be Cardinals Rookie Stars, Gagliano, or Harrelson.

I had to go deep in the weeds to find these next two, I have pretty much exhausted every source I can think of and will have to wait for new miscuts to pop up. I am confident Gene Mauch is to the right of Larry Brown on a 3x row, the only other card anywhere close is Bob Kennedy but Mauch matches up nearly perfectly.

Joe Christopher is to the left of George Smith on a 3x row, The tip of the clown hat from the George Smith cartoon is on the Joe Christopher miscut.

I found a better scan of a Nellie Fox miscut to the left, he actually has a Twin/Giant to his left on a 4x row which could currently be Frank Kostro, Earl Battey, or Cap Peterson.

I am making another run through COMC to see if there are any I missed and I spotted this Clete Boyer which took a while to figure out. I finally matched it up to Richie Allen which is a good one because it links up quite a few cards in different columns. Boyer has two different cards under him but one scenario goes

**?** - **?** - Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal)
**?** - **?** - Gagliano
**?** - CBoyer -Allen
Freese - Banks - Berra

The Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal) is on a 4x row, Gagliano is on a 4x row, C Boyer-R Allen are on a 3x row, Freese-Banks-Berra are on a 3x row. The unknown black border card under Boyer is likely on a 4x row.

Hopefully these will eventually be pinned down to a certain card but right now there are way too many possibilities, Aguirre is above a Pirate/Yankee, Cardinals Rookie Stars is above an Indian/Phillie, Culp is under a Dodger/White Sox and is to the right of a Angel/Red, Indians Rookie Stars is above a Astro/Oriole, Nottebart is to the right of (I think) a Brave/Red Sox, Phillies Rookie Stars is to the left of (I think) a Met/Senator, Rakow is above a Dodger/White Sox, Rowe is above a Red Sox/Brave, Uecker is under a Pirate/Yankee and above a Angel/Red, the Yankees Team card is above a Athletic/Cardinal.

1965 topps series 6
 

Here is a mc of Owens, 451, with a tinge of red at the top. I think that means that Howard, 450, is above both Horlen 480, and Owens, 451.

And we also know that Priddy is above Owens (482 above 451).

Attachment 630434

Jim Owens also has Joel Horlen above him which explains the 4x cards that have a 4x card above or below them.

The black border card to the right of Jim Owens has to be Ken Harrelson through the process of elimination, of the nine 1965 5th Series black border cards four of them are 4x. They are Phil Gagliano, Yankees Team card, Cardinals Rookie Stars, and Ken Harrelson. Gagliano is eliminated because he has Richie Allen under him and Allen has C Boyer to his left, that means Gagliano cannot be in a C2 column. The Yankees Team card has NEW YORK YANKEES - 1964 printed higher than the baseball on the back of the card which means it would be showing on the back of the Owens miscut. Cardinals Rookie Stars has Manny Mota to its' left. That means it has to be Ken Harrelson, so the first three cards of a 4x row are Jim Owens-Ken Harrelson-Frank Kostro. This also puts the first three cards of the Horlen row above the first three cards of the Owens row one time on each slit.

Horlen-Mota-Cardinals Rookie Stars
Owens-Harrelson-Kostro

Trying to reconstruct this series is like trying to put a 132 piece jigsaw puzzle together with over half of the pieces missing, but here are two that fit together, 4x Sammy Ellis is above 3x Cookie Rojas somewhere over the two slits.

1965 series 6 reconstruction
 

left of Angels RS

Attachment 651419

I have Tony Cloninger to the left of this Angels Rookie Stars card in post #6. I have looked everywhere I could think of and the supply of miscuts on this series has completely dried up. This is going to be much more difficult than the 1966 6th Series.

A couple of new ones from the wasteland of 1965 Topps 6th Series. Don Pavletich is to the right of Clete Boyer so I was wrong about it being Richie Allen. Pavletich is definitely a 4x so that means C Boyer is a 4x even though he has relatively low quantities. Too bad there aren't more of these misaligned backs out there. Also, the Cardinals Rookie Stars card (Steve Carlton) has a 4x Met or a 4x Senator to its' right.

I just completed a 65 set and will be creating a page at my site on the set soon. For these reasons, I thought I might as well jump into the 6th series rabbit hole with you guys.

I found this Wills card today and Deans. By my figuring, the only cards that could be beneath him (Pirate/Yankee with dark at the top of the image) are Freese, Law and Howard. It can't be Law because of the reverse, and while it is very hard to tell in slim miscuts like this, I don't think you can see Freese's bat. In that case it could Howard.

This would make Wills a LE card because I think Howard was declared a LE card earlier, but I can't find where that came from. It also says he's at the top of one of the slits?

Thoughts on who is below Mr. Wills?

1965 series 6
 

Howard has a very wavy LE, is the wrong back of Niekro (a RE card), and is above Horlen (a LE card)

Nice find! If it has to be one of those three it is Freese, the card under Wills has a shorter white bio box than Wills has, Law has a full white bio box like Wills does. I'm 98% sure Indians Rookie Stars is the seventh and last header card, since Wills is very likely not a header that means he can't be above Elston Howard.

1965 series 6
 

I think that is right, I put Wills above Freese, so I have a run of Freese-Banks-Berra, with another of Willis-Boyer-Pavletich above that at some point.

Boyer is also above a black border card, so he is a part of a row change, as is Owens.

1965 series 6
 

1. Mc of Wert

2. Also, Indian RS is above either Stu Miller or Jim Owens, as a LE card

3. Forgot to mention that Braves RS (Niekro) is definitely a RE card, so the WB with Elston makes Howard a LE card

Attachment 660076

Unfortunately, Wert is a 3rd Series.

1965 series 6
 

Oops! No wonder I couldn't figure out who was next to him.

Are you sure that is not a Brave or Red Sox next to carlton? Might be dark green

You’re right, I was thinking the Mets and Senators are dark green but it’s actually the Red Sox and Braves who are dark green.

.

I think it has to be either Grote or the O's Rookies, despite his low counts - hear me out.

All the other gray cards are either 1) on the left edge, 2) have a known card that ISN'T Rowe to their left, or 3) have pop counts even lower than Grote.

I just finished putting together a '65 set and both cards, but especially the the Orioles Rookies, command a lot of attention and a price higher than the player depicted would suggest. I think there is reason to believe that either, but again especially the O's Rookies, could be a high demand card to the point of making its pop counts seem lower than that of a typical 4x card.

Thoughts?

I think you’re right, even though Grote doesn’t have large quantities he could very well be a 4x, this is his first solo card and he was a very popular ‘69 Met. I don’t think the Orioles Rookie Stars card with Davey Johnson and Paul Blair is a 4x because it might be the lowest quantity card in the whole series.

I think I am wrong about the Indians Rookie Stars being the 7th and final header card, I now think Ted Wills is the 7th header card. That would make Elston Howard the card under Wills on the miscut. I have been puzzled why I could never find a miscut showing the top of the Ted Wills back, if he is a header card that would explain that. It didn't make sense for Wills to be above Freese because Wills is obviously a 3x and he didn't fit in being on the same row as Boyer and Pavletich because they are 4x cards. If Wills is the 7th header card to go along with Stu Miller, Bob Priddy, Jim Owens, Ed Mathews, Joel Horlen, and Elston Howard the question is who is the third 4x header card to go along with Horlen and Owens. I now believe that is Wills under Mathews on the miscut. ETA Dewey was right and I was wrong.

Concur all around - so the LE cards then are Mathews, Owens, Howard, Priddy, Horlen, Wills and Miller.

Miller and Wills are clearly 3x, and Horlen and Owens are clearly 4x.

The remaining 4x candidates are Mathews, Howard and Priddy. Mathews and Howard's counts are low, and if they were commons I'd give the 4x award to Priddy even though his counts don't seem to me to be clearly in the 4x range.
But they aren't commons, so supply could simply be low due to demand.

I think we need to find horizontal miscuts of one or more of these three to tell for sure.

Thoughts?

1965 Topps series 6
 

The counts on Priddy aren't that far below those of Mota, Ron Locke, Yankees TC, so he might be a 4x

This Howard popped today on ebay - to his right lies a red-bordered card. At first I thought it was a Yankee or Pirate, but when I blew it up, it seems clearly red.

The only candidates which aren't already known to have a match on their left sides are Aguirre, Hoeft, Kennedy and the Tigers Rookie Starts. All of these, plus Howard, are in the 3x range, so none can be eliminated that way.

You can't see any traces of the adjacent card on the reverse - I thought I saw a couple spots that might have been black ink - below the 499 run total and under USA in the copyright, but I think they are both effects of the edge itself.

Looking at Hoeft, Aguirre and Kennedy - they all have writing which might be able to be seen. The Tigers RS reverse lettering all begins lower on the card than those three, so I tend to think the card next to Howard is Tigers RS.

Thoughts?

1965 series 6
 

Do you think it is possible that it is a checklist? One of the checklists is supposed to be in column 2 if the patterns from the other series were followed.

I hadn't thought about the checklists. I compared, and the white portion of the checklist is closer to the card edge than the black text on the rookie cards, so my suspicion is still Tigers Rookies Stars.

I think it's ultimately too close to call though, so I'm not going to place it.

Earl Battey?
 

Found this Battey on eBay today. I thought for certain I'd be able to ID the card above him, but after several attempts I keep coming up empty. The likeliest candidate may be Cloninger, but there'd be more black ink on the Battey side. See what you think...

It can also be Nottebart, Ellis, Horlen, or Azcue. ETA I noticed that it lines up with the center of the baseball and Cloninger is the only one that does so you are probably right.

Found this Gagliano with an Oriole or Astro to his left.

I have Gagliano as an all-but-certainly 4x.

These O's and Astros I have as likely or certainly 3xs so they would not be candidates: Grote, Miller, O's Rookies, Nottebart, Siebern.

These likely or probably 4xs could be his neighbor:
Rowe, Owens, Fox.

Sadly, none of these can be take out of the running automatically because we don't have any of them paired with anyone to their right yet.

Thoughts?

1965 Topps series 6
 

I show Fox with Cloninger to his right. I have Owens with Harrelson to the right. And, even though the counts on Grote suggest he might be a 3x, those counts may be deflated because he is/was a popular Met. I think Cliff possibly put Grote to the right of Rowe.

Gene Stephens, a definite 4x, has a black card to his left (Yankees TC) and a black card to his right, which might be Gagliano.

Attachment 666060

1965 series 6
 

However, this is pretty strong evidence that it is an Oriole or Astro next to Gagliano. So perhaps it is not Harrelson next to Owen, but rather Gagliano? However, to me, the trademark location on the Gagliano miscut looks more like that on the Grote card, not those on the Rowe or Owens cards.

Attachment 666063

[QUOTE=Kevvyg1026;2526061]I show Fox with Cloninger to his right. I have Owens with Harrelson to the right. [QUOTE]

I think I am wrong now about Harrelson being to the right of Owens. It probably is Owens to the left of Gagliano, Owens has a black border card to his right. I will have to go back and look at all of the possibilities tonight.

I don't think I'd seen that Deans Gagliano with the exposed edge on the reverse. I think it has to be Owens - counts suggest it strongly, and if you look closely at the blue/white border on the adjacent card, there is a slight defect/bump right where the curve begins that seems to be consistent with other Owens cards I've seen.

If true, this places Gagliano, Allen, Angels Rookies 517 and Mota in column 2, and we have Cardinals Rookies in #3.

1965 Topps series 6
 

When I match the resolutions for the back of the Rowe, Owens, Grote, and Gagliano MC, it appears to me that the trademark location on Owens matches that on the Gagliano MC perfectly.

Now, the problem I'm having is that either the Angels RS is not above Gagliano, or else, the Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS run, which I thought was solid, is incorrect.

Also, a checklist should be in Col 2, if the pattern of every other slit was maintained, as described below.

In series 1, col 2 had check 2, Col 11 had both checklist 1s.
In series 2, col 2 had check 2, col 11 had check 3
In series 3, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 3
In series 4, col 2 had check 4, col 11 had check 5
In series 5, col 2 had check 6, col 11 had check 5,
In series 7, col 2 had no check, col 11 had check 7

So, I expect that in Series 6, col 2 will have check 6, col 11 check 7. The check 6 variation in series 6 should be the one with the "full m" shown on the back near card 481.

1965 series 6 reconstruction
 

I have the 7 header cards for this series as (# in parentheses):

Horlen (480), Owens (451), Mathews (500), Howard (450), Priddy (482), Miller (499), and Wills (488).

We also have 2nd column cards:
Mota (463, next to Horlen),
Gagliano (498, next to Owens), and
Richie Allen (460, under Gagliano, perhaps next to Mathews).

So, we need 4 more col 2 cards. There is a sliver of red next to Howard, which might be Tiger RS, and I speculate that check6 is also a column 2 card, based on prior printing patterns for the 1965 set.

I have not seen any right side miscuts for Miller, Priddy, or Wills.

At one point, it was suggested that Angels RS was above Gagliano, but that can't be accurate if the Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS run is correct. Can someone post that Angels RS card miscut?

There are two different 4x Angels Rookie Stars in the 1965 6th Series, one has Egan and the other has Schaal. The one with Egan is to the right of Cloninger, the one with Schaal is above Gagliano. I have Gagliano under Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal) and Gagliano above Richie Allen, I don't have anything else connected to Angels Rookie Stars (Schaal), Gagliano, or Allen.

Well, that's pretty conclusive that Angels RS (517) is above Gagliano and is in Col 2. I show Owens below Horlen, who is a 4x, but has Mota next to him. However, I also have Owens under Priddy, so perhaps Priddy is the other 4x card and Schaal is the col 2 card next to Priddy??

I’m not convinced that Gagliano is to the right of Owens although it is very possible because Owens has a black border card to his right and Gagliano has a Astro/Oriole to his left and they are both 4x. I think it is still possible that Grote or Nottebart are to the left of Gagliano.

Found this today - Niekro is a right edge card.

Is this the first confirmed right edge card we have? I don't have any others yet besides Niekro.

1965 series 6
 

We've had niekro as a right edge card for quite a while since he's a wrong back of Elston Howard. Vern law should also be a right edge card and dodgers rookie stars is a right edge card. Checklist 7 should also be a right edge card

Ah...well there goes my endorphine rush from earlier this morning.

Do we have images of the Dodgers RS and Law? I reviewed this thread and didn't see them.

1965 series 6
 

Found one Dodgers RS with a way right edge.

The Law surmise is based on finding both Niekro and Law with a line.

Checklist 7 should be there as well, based on the pattern used for every other series.

I suspect that a couple of rookie star cards are also there, but I havn't found conclusive evidence yet for those.

Attachment 666604

Attachment 666605

Attachment 666606

Attachment 666607

Attachment 666608

Although this series is very difficult to attempt a complete reconstruction because of the paucity of miscuts, it appears to me that most of the 4x cards have known horizontal miscuts, so some connection might be possible for those 4x rows.

e.g., There is Horlen-Mota-Cards RS (Carlton)-dark green card and there is also a Geiger-Locke-Ellis-Piche_Rowe-gray card. Is it possible that Geiger is the dark green to the right of Carlton?

There is also a NYY team-Stephens-black and a Harrelson-Kostro-Fox-Cloninger-Angels RS (486). Perhaps Harrelson is next to Stephens?

And there is a Stange-Odell-Rakow-Mele-Dodgers RS as another part of a 4x run, so that might be in the third 4x row??

And finally, a black card-Boyer-Pavletich, an Owens-Gagliano, perhaps Priddy-Angels RS (517), and Indians RS-Aguirre

I have scans of the Mets Rookie Stars being a right edge card, I will post them tonight.

Yes, that is one of the RS cards I suspect is a right edge card, but the miscut I saw wasn't conclusive enough for me to call.