Juan Soto -- looking like a bust for the Mets
 

I had my doubts about that signing, and the eye test is beginning to confirm those doubts. It's not just the fact that he's had a slow start to the season. Having watched him play now many times in a Mets uniform, I think he's a loafer on the field and on the base paths. I'm not sure if it is because he is just slow or if he is lazy. Or if he just doesn't care as much now that he will be billionaire if he manages his money properly.

Good take by the Yankees.

And my post above was BEFORE he hit the longest single in the history of baseball by not hustling out of the box.

Not saying Soto hustled out of the box or anything, but didn't Alonso get thrown out at 2nd on a ball off the Green Monster earlier in the game?

Guys hit singles off the Green Monster, literally all the time.

He did indeed. He wasn't hustling either, although he also didn't go into an arrogant home run trot the way Soto did.

I'm pretty sure the Mets would have plenty of teams willing to take Soto off their hands if they want to trade him.

Yankees included

I suspect that foolish pride, i.e. admitting that they erred, would stand in the way of such a sensible transaction by the Mets.

;)

Less then 2 months into a contract seems a bit early to be labeling it a bust, especially when the guy carries a 1.6 bWAR and a 133 ops+. Those numbers aren't up to Soto's career standards, but they are far from shabby.

There was a pretty vocal group of folks that labeled Lindor's contract a bust too early in the contract, but would be hard pressed to find someone who feels that way now. I think Soto has earned the benefit of the doubt to let this one simmer a bit as well.

Maybe if he did, he wouldn’t have gotten thrown out at 2nd base. ;)

Yaz probably threw out 5-10 guys a year whose ego couldn’t handle smacking a ball off the Green Monster and settling for a single.

Jim Rice even got pretty good at it later in his career.

A fair, dispassionate challenge. But simmering dispassionately isn't really a thing for long suffering Mets fans like us!

So basically, Juan Soto is producing Teoscar Hernandez type numbers right now, which would be fine, but Teoscar is on a 3-year, $66mm contract, while Soto is playing on a contract that is bigger than that of Ohtani.

Speaking of Ohtani, I also watch a lot of Dodgers games. Mostly to torture myself with envy. Forget the home runs. That guy Ohtani beats out so many infield singles. He turns hard hit balls that don't quite make it to the wall into doubles and turns doubles into the corner into triples. And he goes to the f**king Dodgers on a $700mm contract -- mostly deferred -- and helps them win a ring in his first year. And the way karma for the Mets seem to work, he's probably going to come back just in time to bail out their rotation and pitch in September, make Dave Roberts look like a genius, and ensure the Mets don't make it to the World Series again this year.

Meanwhile, we've got Soto, who looks like (and has even come close to saying it out loud by throwing shade at Pete Alonso) he wishes he still were playing for the Yankees.

And, as if on cue, we've got Carlos Mendoza now trying to explain Soto:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...s-mets-manager

Ohtani was also on a new team and on a massive contract. How many times did Dave Roberts have to justify to the press why Ohtani wasn't hustling?

It's May. Come on.

Exactly. Imagine what he's going to be like when it's September and he's tired.

People never tire of saying stupid things based on small samples.

Last May Lindor was the worst contract in baseball history. Now this May it's Soto. Next year it will be some other guy. Probably Pete.

Keeps sports radio going all day and all night.

Same guy who says this about Soto would have been calling Judge a bum for hitting 207 over March and April last year.

If anyone needs a reminder, Judge went on to win MVP.

Lindor was never accused of dogging it, as far as I remember. He was accused of sucking relative to his contract value, but that's different.

In 46 games in 2020 Shohei hit .190. Obviously he was DOA.

I would love to be proven wrong and see the Mets go on to win the World Series this year. And see Soto evolve into the second coming of Keith Hernandez in terms of fan base love.

But I think Soto is a bad attitude guy. Lindor, Judge and Ohtani have all gone through rough stretches, but they are all good attitude guys.

To be honest, it should have been a giant red flag for the Mets when Soto showed that he was willing to leave the Yankees -- where he seemed to have been loved by everyone and fit in well and made the WS -- for an extra 0.65% and a luxury box for his family.

C'mon this is just silly!

I say this is a bereaved Yankees fan:

I wouldn't give up on Soto so soon. He's a generational talent. His attitude may not be perfect but remember that he's still just 26; he has time to mature. There's cause for concern but this is not a doomsday Soto scenario.

This doesn't address attitude concerns, but I think Soto's been unlucky thus far this season. If you go on Baseball Savant and look at Soto's Statcast numbers, he has an expected batting average of .309 and expected slugging percentage of .595. With his walks, that gives him an expected weighted on-base percentage of .433, which is elite. If he keeps on hitting the ball like that his stats will fall in line.

You cut off the last part of my quote. The part about the reason for his leaving was an extra 0.65 percent and a luxury box for his family.

I can see leaving your job for 0.65 percent more and, say, a partial education stipend for your kids, if you are making $30,000 a year and trying to feed a family while living hand to mouth. But not when it is 0.65 percent on $760 million (plus whatever it costs for a luxury box).

This makes me feel a bit better about it. Fingers crossed...

He saving his energy not running out doubles...

I’m still pissed Soto didn’t stay with the Yankees, but he will be ok. Months from now, this threat will be forgotten ⚾️

Wish the Yankees could have kept him, but Cohen appealed to Soto's ego better then Hal did...who didn't seem to want to be bothered beyond throwing out the contract at Soto part.

I don't begrudge Soto for leaving. He spent 1 year with the Yankees, and had been used as essentially a bargaining chip multiple times in his young career already.

Not sure why he owed them any loyalty. He was a rental from the get go, and he got them to the World Series, just like they were hoping.

....and then it was the rest of the team who bungled it from there. Soto carried them as far as he could in the Playoffs to.

Wish we had Michael King back, but another upside of that trade is that throw in, Trent Grisham, is now having a bit of a breakout season. Don't know how long it will last (again, it's only May), but if we also get a couple serviceable years out of him, it will make the pitching prospects we gave up for Soto, hurt a lot less.

Until proven otherwise, Juan Soto is a generational talent. It might be proven otherwise -- it's baseball and anything can happen to a young player -- but 7 weeks don't mean a thing.

I think everyone has to discount Soto's year on the Yankees too. Hitting in front of Judge is going to make a lot of guys look good. It will be tough for anyone to replicate the same numbers while not hitting in front of Judge. Alonso really isn't in the same class.

Not sure how much difference that really makes statistically other than maybe runs scored. I think it may be one of those things that sounds good but doesn't hold up.

Or you could look at his statistics. He put up the highest WAR of his career on the Yankees and aside from the strike shortened 2020 season, also his highest OPS+. He also set a career high in home runs.

Being a left handed power hitter in Yankee Stadium could also have something to do with his stats last year.

The guy walked 129 times with Aaron Judge sitting in the on deck circle, waiting to hit next.

That speaks to a certain skill-set and batters eye that has almost disappeared from the game of baseball.

I'd say Judge benefited from him, just as much as he benefited from Judge. Guys on base already, now you have to pitch to Judge. Not like there were any other guys on that team with a passable OBP, to help Judge drive in as many runs as he did.

The guys hitting in front of Judge most often this season are Grisham and Goldschmidt. Many have commented on the starts they’ve gotten off to this year.

Judge is again leading the league in RBIs and leading all three Triple Crown categories without Soto and without batting left handed, and he is good everywhere when you consider his nearly identical OPS at home and on the road. I think it's time to accept that Judge is the X factor. You are going to get better at bats with him behind you.

How does it help the opponent to pitch to Soto in a way such that he has better hitting stats, if Judge is coming up next? Don't you want to maximize keeping Soto off base?

The first inning is the first inning but later in games if there are men on base and Soto is up with Judge on deck after him, the pitcher is thinking about Judge. If he gets behind 2-0 to Soto, he's going throw him an equivalent pitch as if it were 3-0.

Your suggestion also plays into better at bats. You want to get Soto out so you don't have to pitch to Judge. The best way to get somebody out who is known for being patient and walking a ton, is to throw strikes. Strikes are the better pitches to hit. But you're still thinking about Judge.

I guess I just don't see it, and certainly don't see how it's going to make a big difference in the overall numbers. If there are men on base, I'd be sufficiently worried about Soto that I am not going to start thinking about Judge, and I certainly don't see why you would then pitch to Soto in such a way that INCREASES his hitting stats making it more likely he too gets on base for Judge.

You don't want to walk Soto and add to the Judge problem. That's why you pitch to him. If a pitcher feels forced to throw strikes, strikes are the pitches you want to be seeing.

And yet look how many walks Soto had. AND, I would argue that that rationale might apply to a weak hitter, not a superstar like Soto. Giving him better pitches to hit because you are afraid to walk him seems unlikely to be beneficfial.

He is universally known for having a great eye for the ball and he has huge power on top of that. You're suggesting that pitchers were still scared of him. I'd agree.

I think you're also misinterpreting what I mean by getting better at bats. I'm talking about a pitcher feeling pressure to throw strikes because he doesn't want to put Soto on base with Judge coming up. Strikes are the best pitches to hit. If a pitcher feels pressured to throw them, that can only benefit the hitter.

I dunno, if I'm pitching, I'm not worried so much about not walking Soto as I am about making sure he doesn't hit me, in which case I am not going to pitch him any differently just because Judge is on deck.

I think it was a pretty symbiotic hitting relationship that Judge and Soto had. Judge helped Soto and Soto helped Judge.

Neither was exactly a parasite.

Two guys with .400+ OBP hitting next to each other, are only going to help each other.

As far as Goldschmidt and Grisham. Goldschmidt knowing how to hit a baseball isn't news, and Grisham moved up in the lineup AFTER he started to produce at the bottom of the lineup, and has rarely been in the vicinity of Judge's at bats.

https://www.si.com/mlb/juan-soto-did...raight-pitches

Soto last night. Generational attitude.

I also think that this "generational" label is being batted around too casually. Soto has had a great career so far, but generational?

In my mind, this generation's only generational players are as follows:

Pujols
Trout
Judge
Ohtani
Kershaw
Verlander
Ichiro

I wouldn't put Ichiro on that list, myself. I think the idea on Soto is that he is a generational talent, not that he has achieved enough yet.

Since it's a card forum, here are my Sotos which are sinking like the Titanic lol.

I see your Sotos (nice, btw), and I raise you a Strawberry. The glory days in right field at Shea!

I see the challenge on Ichiro, but the guy had 10 consecutive years of 200 base hits, which beats the next guy (Wade Boggs at 7 consecutive) by a lot. The only other guy with 10 seasons (non-consecutive) of 200 base hits is Pete Rose. So Ichiro, who came over without the benefit of his early prime years, has a case for being the best contact hitter of two generations of players. Him, Tony Gwynn, and Wade Boggs.

As for the distinction between a generational talent and a generational player, I'll just say that Dwight Gooden was a generational talent and Hank Aaron wasn't. But one was a generational player, while the other wasn't. For me, the generational talent label is a bit meaningless.

It's meaningful until a player has proven he can't live up to it. IMO Soto is not there yet, not even close. Although he may never get another hit at this rate lol.

Just when you think the Dodgers have that bed-sh*tting, soul-destroying blown save + long extra inning loss that might sap their confidence a bit, the Mets collectively let them off the hook.

I can't say it was Soto's fault, but he certainly didn't help.

If getting on base is a talent, Soto is a generational talent. No one else in this generation (and very few in history) can beat him in taking walks and getting on base (with the possible exception of Judge, but Judge is a very different kind of hitter.)

2 hits, 2 RBI. He's back!!!!

That's right!! He's back! And anyone who thought Juan Soto was a bum, is a bum.

And Acuna is finally playing again.

You know what I love about Lindor? He's miked up during the game, he talks up his embattled teammate Soto, and he turns an awesome double play.

And Soto? The guy is slumping, but he managed to help win the game with his hustle and defense!

Mets rock. Watch out LA. We're coming for you.

So he's not a bust any more until his next bad game? Got it.

That's right! I am happy to expose my intellectual inconsistencies where they lie.

And Lindor and Soto come through again (even though Soto didn't have any hits again)! Lindor is the best. Granted, it's the White Sox, but a W is a W.

All three runs in the game on sac flies. Old style baseball.

Such a loser post. He and the Mets are fine.

Statcast has Soto's expected slash line so far at .300/.421/.582 (xOPS of 1.003), compared to his actual line of .233/.363.409. He's just gotten (very) unlucky. Nothing to worry about.

Yes, John1941 made the Statcast point earlier in the thread, which is a good one. This said, if we went by Statcast predictions instead of actual results, Aaron Judge catches that ball in the 5th inning of last year's World Series and Freddie Freeman doesn't hit the grand slam in Game 1. The Knicks don't choke Game 1 last week, and the Pacers don't give away Game 3. The 2007 Patriots beat the Giants and poor Arthur Blank isn't a meme.

And finally, I suppose that if the stakes in one's life are such that making lighthearted, fan-talk posts constitutes loser behavior, then yes, I guess I'm a loser.

The Mets are already over a third of the way into the season. That's starting to be significant.

This though is the same guy who just signed a record setting contract. His numbers aren't exactly record setting. In fact I'd label his current .224 batting average as very disappointing. Granted I do need to give him credit for being on pace to set a personal high for stolen bases.

You should post more often. We're not often treated to such rare insight.

Methinks he needs to start hitting the ball where it's pitched to improve his "luck".

;)

The good news for Soto is he's got the venerable Rockies pitching staff coming up. When the White Sox are too good, you can count on the Rockies.

It's not just Juan Soto though. The Mets are now trying to be like the Yankees and win with their payroll instead of playing good fundamental baseball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOwxfFjVDYE

The Mets should go back to being the anti-Yankees and offer New York baseball fans an alternative instead of an echo.

:(

He went 2-4 last night. Maybe he's coming out of it. Besides, what player in history (other than maybe Hank Aaron) has not gone through a slump? It's baseball.

A HR and a walk today. Oh ye of no faith.

Juan Soto! Looking strong to very strong in June. Good thing we Mets fans never lost faith!

On a potentially related note, I am shocked that the Dodgers are in first place in their division when they basically have one pitcher -- Yamamoto. Granted, he's awesome, but still.

I like the Mets' chances in the post season if Yamamoto and Playoff Kershaw are the best arms. We've got to also hope that Ohtani is rusty and doesn't pull out any of that World Baseball Classic circa 2023 stuff.

Shockingly, assessments of a 15 year contract after 3 weeks of play proved to be a tad premature.

Yep for sure. But if you're looking for patience, play in the Central Division.

Fellow life long Mets fan here, you need to relax man and enjoy the season. This team is doing great, one win away from having the best record in baseball and you're acting like the sky is falling. We had the Coupons as an owner who got roped into a ponzi scheme and now we have the richest owner and fan in sports who bought arguably the greatest free agent in baseball history. The back of his baseball card says you can pencil him in for .280 and 30 HR's a year.

You endured seasons of Jason Bay, Rey Ordonez, and Mo Vaughan. Enjoy the time when they're actually good. Every team wins 50 games, every team loses 50 games. Enjoy the ride and know they'll be in contention come October. But most importantly, LFGM!

Sage advice. I guess it hurts more when the Mets seem to have a team that can finally win it all again.

Hey, Rey Ordonez wasn't bad.

Hardly a low point of my 50 year Mets fandom. Wouldn't make the top 150.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TllQxxbdPWM

You're both missing the point. Yes, Juan Soto is hitting .253 with 13 home runs 43% of the way into the season. That's "alright". What it's NOT though is worth $765 million over fifteen years plus silly perks!

The Mets should trade Soto to the Yankees or whoever and get the albatross of a contract off their backs. And I'm saying this because as a lifelong Yankee hater I'm a Mets fan!

LOL, if the Yankees or anybody else wanted that contract, they would have given him that contract to begin with. Forget now giving assets to inherit that contract. He's on the Mets, until he can no longer play baseball, or money becomes meaningless to the Oligarchs who will own baseball teams over the next 15 years.

Also, you're cherry picking stats. He's starting to close in on his usual .400+ OBP and is on pace for a 6+ WAR season...which is exactly what the Mets paid for.

I'm not going to get into the logistics of giving out a 15 year / 3/4+ Billion dollar contract...but I'm sure the guy who owns the team (and is worth about 20 times more then Hal Steinbrenner), and likely makes more then Soto's full contract in a single year...doesn't really need you to count nickels and cents for him.

And as a Yankee fan, I’m glad to see you lifelong Yankee haters got stuck with Soto and his ridiculous 15-year, $765 million contract.

Cherry picking? No. I didn't bother to go more deeply than his batting average and home run tital. And the newfangled WAR thingie I'm disinclined to check at all.

No, he doesn't need me to count for him. In my experience rich men are really good at counting for themselves. That's typically a necessary condition to getting rich.

;)

I'm assuming you consider stats like "Runs" and "On-Base percentage" new-fangled as well? Perhaps if you dug a little deeper than his batting average and home runs, you'd find that Soto has been on base the 4th most of any player in the MLB so far this year, which is translating to a lot of runs, which tend to help teams win games.

But as others have pointed out, its absurd to judge a 15 year contract well before the All-Star break of his 1st year in that contract.

A record setting contract means I'd expect some record setting numbers (the ones I studied as a kid on the backs of Baseball cards anyway).

;)

Yeah it’s been tough. Told one of my kids he can’t go back to college this year and we’re been eating ramen noodles for the last few months. Also haven paid the cable bill in 8 months. And I’ve postponed a lot of dental work I desperately need. I’m furious over what Cohen has hoisted upon me, but what can you do.

I typically don't blame anyone but myself for my own overspending.

;)

This is what slays Yankees fans 24/7/365 about the Mets signing Soto . . . . . why they chant "Juan Soto sucks" in games where they aren't even playing the Mets.

THE SIZE OF HIS CONTRACT IS ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS

METS LUXURY TAX "HIT" IN 2025: $79M

In 2024, Forbes Magazine estimated Cohen's fortune at $21.5 billion, ranking him the 30th richest person in the United States.

https://fortune.com/2016/10/22/steve...naire-point72/

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/12/05/st...-man-sculpture