NO LONGER CURIOUS... thx for feedback
 

Plenty of feedback received now... not pleasant but helpful. I'm open to continuing discussions 1-1 with anyone who's willing to do so.

Thx -
Jeff

anger
 

Yea,
Ive seen and noticed that also on the site at times,

Often, its just a guys comment that might be a bit " against the grain " , and it quickly becomes a 20+ back and forth " posting war "with others

Im quite sure it would never happen face to face/ in person

Genuinely curious
 

Albert- Bingo! It's a wonderful thing that the snarks are in a minority. They
do their best to compensate with anger, or utter unwillingness to comment on
the nature of a post so long as they can get some jab in, and pleas that
they aren't the instigators when they, well, clearly are... These clowns are
all "Twitter muscle", and their value is only in their own minds. Trent King

I agree with you. We need the new comers to just ignore the few grumps and enjoy the forum and the hobby.

To me it is easy to ignore the grumps......I have a lot of practice as I am married haha. Just kidding.

Life is too short to be unpleasant all the time. It takes more effort to frown than it is to smile.

So just enjoy life and the hobby everyone!

Bob

So it seems
 

It’s the baseball card collecting version of Road Rage

I don't know that I see what you are talking so much? Been on these boards for a long long time now and most of the dialogue I see is genuine back and forth on Cards, Personalities, and BST.

Not to say that if you want to start a snipe war that there wont be takers - just that my experience has been - If you dont start none then there wont be none.

N54 is by far my most favorite place to hang out early mornings and weekends (YEA I KNOW - GET A LIFE :))

anger
 

Is this place any worse than FB or any of the other socials, in this respect? I think not.
If any member feels that someone follows them around giving them a hard time, without provocation, give me a PM and we can ask them to stop.
.

Gotta love the nose...

This place is my refuge from the vitriol of the outside world and all social media — I'm on here way more than I should be ... LOL. Are there some grumps and wise-asses, sure, but overall it's a great escape, source of education, and place of trustworthy commerce. I've seen Leon send cease-and-desists to members of 10+ years who cross the line, and while that's a rare occasion, the site's in great hands.

Sadly, we're now a society largely engaged in endless verbal combat, but it happens less here than about any other place online.

It's a part of life no matter what you're a part of. People are people, and we all think and see things differently at times. Some are more aggressive than others. Personally, I hate to see when people go at each other too hard. Cut throat, deep, nasty, saying hateful things to each other. Don't think it should ever elevate to that level. Haven't seen much of that lately, so that's a good thing.

I've been here about 20 years. I took at least 10 years mostly away because, among other reasons, some of the aspects touched upon were enough to make me call it a day. I've had mixed feelings about sticking around, but I'm still here.

There are obviously a lot more people who read and refrain from posting than the core group of what feels like 20 people at any given time. Some of the names might change, but it's always been a tiny group of regulars vs. non-contributing members.

Whether I am on this site or out in public, I just ignore any negativity I encounter especially from someone I do not know.

Their behavior may be due to something they are dealing with in their private lives. It may be a medical issue (mental or physical), Marital strive etc. Or they could just be an A$$hole.

Regardless, I don't take it personally.

I'm mostly a visitor to this site (daily) and rarely comment.

This site keeps my collecting spirit up! I love the passion.

I have a short list, they are on it, it works for me.

Butch

Some people are just hateful. Fortunately the decent people on here vastly outnumber the hateful ones.

But it's true what you are saying, Jeff - I have heard from newish members who decided not to be active here because they were on the receiving end of someone's hateful posts.

The "ignore list" is a useful feature for those select a-holes...the only problem is that you still see their comments when they are quoted by someone else!:eek:

I notice far fewer angry people here than any other site I've been on. If you feel the need to sit on the sidelines here, don't venture to other sites. This place is a bastion of peace in an internet of turmoil.

Well, hopefully I’m not on the list of trolls.

I will admit to leaning heavily into the sarcasm trade, which often doesn’t communicate well in written form. And that could part of the story. For some of us, our written communications may come off more aggressive than intended.

It’s also likely that some people just take life too seriously. Maybe they just believe too much in the Cobra Kai mantra:

“We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition: A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.”

For the most part, the people I've seen here reserve that mentality for price negotiations. :eek:

Board
 

I have been on here for approx 15 years. I think it’s a great forum run by great people. I do see people getting chippy when they see a pattern of a poster doing the same thing over and over. It tends to be when they don’t do their homework or are looking for others to do it. Also when they try to use the board for free advertising to pump their own tires.

When I first started here I posted for help with certain items. Items that were easy to google myself. Someone posted why don’t you google this. You know what they were right.

I like the balance on the board and think feedback.given is usually spot on. Like it or not.

Happy collection

Toby Peterson

I blame everything on the announcer team from the game last night, those guys were TERRIBLE, particularly the non-ex-player.

But the Tigers radio guy might be my new favorite announcer.

I did this a while ago for one of my threads, but you can basically plug in any thread and it's still the case...

Attachment 674377

With all the sales outlets in this hobby, the vast majority of which we all know of course, Jeff has found a way to get 15-25 percent more for consignors? Stunning if true.

That's what he says.
https://grossvintagebaseball.com/

Same page as "deep expertise," "unmatched knowledge [and] connections," etc.

No "hate" in this post, but certainly some skepticism.

Snark can be a good thing sometimes in the face of hypocrisy or an evident lack of self awareness. Like basically any platform, things can occasionally go overboard. But overall this is a fine place and hard to top when it comes to the sharing of vintage collecting knowledge.

I'm very angry
 

I'm very angry 1987 Fleer Michael Jordan Rookie cards sellers are asking obscene prices -- although guess Ill buy a couple more high end cards if I can-

Sadly, it’s ingrained in the hobby. Rarely do I find guys that want to help each other out. Everyone wants to maximize all the time.

Additionally, the amount of jealous in card collecting is absurd. I am happy when others add to their collection, but I feel that this is the minority view.

Most of it I think comes down to ego. This is a great board a lot of guys here have a great success and prestige in life via their career or families and their collections. Many times have to be right about every card-related difference of opinion and will continue till they get the peanut gallery to co-sign their argument/opinion.

I would venture to say many people on this board are much nicer than sometimes their comments come out :-) I take it with a grain of salt. They really don’t mean anything by it, just strong and passionate about their thoughts.

Unfortunate part of any online group.

One of the nice features of the Board is that you can "ignore" certain posters. It works just like the Bad Bidder list on eBay.

Just above the first post in any thread, you'll see a menu bar; the first option is User CP. Click here, then on the list of options on the left, choose Edit Ignore List. Enter the handle of any posters you choose to ignore, and all you'll see is that they've posted something in a thread, with something to the effect of "you have blocked posts from this user" where you would normally see what they posted. You don't have to read their drivel unless you want to.

I'm just here for the cards and memorabilia. This tool has significantly improved the site experience for me since I started using it.

I always figured these points were prevalent throughout the entire hobby. I'm not sure about other sports, but I when returned to hockey realm several years ago after decades away, I was so pleasantly surprised to find it was generally a different mindset among the collectors and even dealers. Far friendlier, less shadiness and a much greater willingness for collectors to help each other out. It was so refreshing. As to baseball, though, you're sadly spot on.

It was my experience that the baseball history research community was also absurd, perhaps more so. Don't you dare share any of your independent discoveries privately with anyone. There are people happy to take credit for your work, and for what? Bragging rights? I'll simply conduct my research quietly and privately and they can do theirs.

Well said! Especially the second part. I’ll never understand that mindset.

The fact that cards have in some areas run up astronomically has left a very bitter taste in the mouth of some who "missed out". Their anger, though misplaced, is kind of understandable.

I'm sure at times people have written my comments off as snarky bs. Fair enough. Once or twice a year I get pulled into some political horseshit and immediately regret it. But I also feel there are people who want to be little Mary Sunshine at every opportunity and seldom say anything of much value. I think boards like this are a lot more valuable when you express an honest opinion, and don't just reflexively respond "oh that's wonderful . . . congratulations" to every post. Not a justification for going out of your way and picking a fight with someone, or attacking them personally.

This is a great point. So much activity on here is essentially

"Look how much money I just spent!"
"Wow, congrats"

Such "discussions" aren't really a space for newcomers, or really anyone who doesn't want to participate in the "mine is bigger than yours" game.

More honest discussions and less "showing off" would help achieve what OP is asking about, IMO

This is not my experience at all. I must be hanging around a different crowd. I have found this hobby is full of people who want to help other collectors. I've always said, and it's still true, every big rare card in my collection has a story that involves a fellow collector looking out for me in some way.

I agree. I'm also surprised how many people posting in this thread consider this place to be so negative. I don't see any problems at all. Makes me think maybe I should do some introspection and ask myself if I've annoyed people on here lately..... but I'd rather enjoy this beautiful autumn day.

Can we please be clear about something? What prompted this thread by the OP was a couple negative posts about his practice of continually posting questions and publicizing *his business*. This is not a collector seeking information in order to enjoy the hobby more, which seems to be the premise of most of the responses in this thread.

Jeff Gross professes on his website to be an expert about baseball cards. So much so that he can sell your cards for upwards of 25 percent more “than traditional sales options.” Yet he has posted novice-like questions seeking help identifying fairly mainstream card issues (mainstream within the hobby, at least), which players are common players and a myriad of other questions — all to help run a business in which he says he’s an expert.

So, yes, after months of this practice, anger was directed at him. That’s far different than a collector asking about the nuances of the T206 set or what constitutes Ty Cobb’s rookie card. I don’t remember those types of genuine questions drawing a negative response on the board.

You have stated the issue here well. The issue in my opinion is not the questions per se, it's the context. If you just read the website, you would think Jeff is an elite veteran seller, someone like -- I don't know, just to pick a name at random -- a Steve Verkman.

Edited to add a screenshot for the record.

Peter, I think some want an edge to undercut the auction houses so they figure they can make a website they can make a story they can get a hit. It’s all about competition nobody in the business, nobody is looking out for the other guy in business. Now as for the collectors, absolutely we are looking out for other collectors, which is a major positive. ��

John, sure, but does that justify saying things if they are not grounded in reality?

I wrote something similar to Jeff when he had sent me a PM after I made a comment he did not like on one of his threads. When I tried to explain he immediately got really pissed with me. I think all of us do better in life if we can self-reflect.

Indeed the hypocrisy and then plays the victim card when people have the audacity to call him out for the complete lack of self awareness.

I’m surprised this took so long, I figured this would have been called out sooner.

I’m going to hijack this thread a little bit. For all you haters out there, I now have PayPal. I had an extraordinarily amount of flak on my posts for not having that service and only using Venmo. ��

Bill and others said it very well. Jeff should review his interactions on this board and be able to see where he was in the wrong. I have been privately frustrated by his claim of vast knowledge and experience despite seeing him post basic questions. If it happened once or twice, that might be different, but I am glad he was called out for it as this appears to be a pattern.

Alan

No, it doesn’t. I would say, though if it sounds too good to be true it probably is too good to be true. A lot of these guys in the card business embellish and BS all kinds of stuff about making the most getting the most bidders.

On the business side I would argue that there are a number of guys in the business who have gone out of their way to be helpful to me. I think we let the negatives impact our consciousness much more than we recall the positives.

Ok, so messages received… loud and clear. Believe me, I am listening. Lots to reflect on. And I can promise you, I already am.

Jeff

Jeff, I hope you aren’t like some older members and will stop posting. Try to enjoy the hobby and don’t let others get you down.

Members on this board don’t like new things, period. They relish in the “good old days”. Well folks, the good old days weren’t always good, they were just old. I love when we see new and improved ways of doing things, looking at things, etc.

Since there is so much anger here, let's take it the other way. The Gross-man's response is a beautiful example of class.
That is really nice to see. Well done!

I believe the legal term is puffery!

But I suppose there’s puffery and gross puffery. And maybe some of the claims on the gross website are a bit gross that way.

LOL. Actually there is a lot of nuance in securities law about the line between puffery and misrepresentation.

This is the post OP had to make a new thread to whine about while dodging that it is about his blatantly false representations of himself and his business. If anything I greatly understated the gap between his posts here needing help with the basics of old cards and his claims to be the leading expert on vintage baseball cards who nets 15-25% more than the market leaders via his unique connections and 3 decades of alleged industry experience.

I prefer "Gross Negligence " but I see what you did there

I think Jeff gets the point, he’s taken the constructive criticism positively which is all you can ask.
Time to show a little grace imho.

It remains to be seen how he will edit his website.

Yep, ball’s in his court.

Yes. And with good reason. For example:

You might consider not trying so hard to deride free markets with posts such as these:

Well you're innocent on that count anyway.

:p

Your observation was about seemingly inaccurate statements on his website where most others were making comments about his approach and use of the board. One might be a gray area for misrepresentation and the other more of a nuisance so hopefully he is reflecting on both of these things.

For what it is worth I just read a post by a respected board member where he made reference to his having the lowest consignment rates in the hobby when in fact he does not. Fact checking before one speaks seems to have gone out the window.

Lastly and not meant as an attack at all on Jeff and his website but I did notice that he has tucked away a very stringent All Sales Are Final in a link at the bottom of the "Shop" page, called Refund Policy. The site and the manner in which he has carried himself on here have given a totally different vibe but maybe this is the way all retail business is done today. :confused:

Methinks you're giving yourself a bit too much credit. Careful you don't pull any muscles so assiduously patting yourself on the back.

:rolleyes:

Genuinely curious
 

I'll begin by stating Jeff and I aren't in business together. My net54 dealings
with him have been positive, he's been kind and appropriate. When he asked a rather straightforward question about M101 4/5s, I privately sent him a bit of guidance...then waited for the snark to start on the public post.

I wasn't disappointed. Two of the usual suspects, G1911 and Lorewalker,
couldn't wait to chime in- without addressing the actual topic, naturally.
Insults, accusations, negativity all while conveniently ignoring the thread's
intent. How shocking. Good guys like Phil Lewis were positive/helpful.

Next, Jeff was moved enough to start another thread about negativity.
Sharks, meet blood! More of the same from the same. Naturally,
Peter "Quantity over Quality" Spaeth weighed in and concluded by informing
us that Jeff is now on the clock to change his website. Ambitious!

I've got a GREAT idea for the guys out there just waiting to chime in with
a useless reply to a thread- don't. There's this choice called "silence", and
some of you really need to exercise it. If you can't stay on topic, just stay
out. If you absolutely must say something to a poster, then send a PM
rather than derail the thread. This isn't difficult.

Now that I've added to this topic, I'm sure the usual suspects will blast
away at me. For some of you it's either ego or loneliness that will beat you
and compel a reply. For others, it's some mania that is likely clinically
diagnosable. Regardless, it's an indication of a small, sad persona. Good
luck with that.

Trent King

When Trent comes to your rescue...well I'll just leave it at that

FYI, as I said earlier… I definitely hear you and am already making changes in language on my site.

This hasn’t been pleasant but it has been helpful.

I’m taking several lessons and learnings from this experience - and if anyone wants to continue to discuss privately, hit me up anytime. We both might learn better that way.

Jeff

Genuinely curious
 

Republicaninass chimed in- stunning. Living proof that drinking highballs for breakfast isn’t a quality fix. Thanks for proving my point. Trent King

HeY Jeff
Nice post and great post above by Trent. We all live and learn. I learn every day and make mistakes almost every day LOL.
I am the king of mistakes.

For the record, I would rather deal with Jeff than more than half of the other dealers out there. Jeff has always been professional in our many dealings (mostly on board stuff and not actual sales). But respect and kindness go along way and Jeff has shown that. And he has handled this thread better than I would have.
Self reflection is always good.

My two cents with an attempt at finding some levity.

I met Jeff once in person several years ago when he sold me a custom sign for my Red Sox man cave. He was nothing but courteous, thoughtful and nice. At that time we briefly discussed cards, his interest in Sports Illustrated magazines he found at the time and my interest in game used bats. He came across to me as someone who was pretty new in the hobby but earnest.

I can’t attest to his posts on here but Jeff has posted a lot of off-topic content in some of the Red Sox groups I frequent. At first it was about Red Sox stuff and his interest in making Red Sox signs and card shelves which was great, then mostly questions about the hobby, then after what I presume was an opportunity to sell/consign someone he knew locally’s vintage card collection, he turned it into a business. All of his posts became less about the Red Sox and all about his T206 cache. All of it appeared innocent enough, if slightly annoying since it was not relevant to strictly Red Sox groups. But I respected his passion and interest even if it appeared a bit misplaced.

While the website does appear to be misleading based on the level of knowledge/experience Jeff appears to have, I don’t see it much differently than some of the more experienced but even more ruthless businessmen who try to make their brand top of the market. Fake it til you make it. I could be wrong but I get the sense Jeff is less about trying to deceive others as he is just willing to put himself out there, at times to the annoyance of others, in order to start up a business.

This hobby tends to have a lot of gatekeepers who want to hold all the knowledge they have until they are dead (but obviously a lot of them are wonderful people). Jeff strikes me as someone who is genuinely interested in the hobby and willing to ask the questions, which we need, but perhaps goes too far with his reach, especially now if he is trying to establish a business. This can be a lightning rod for people which I get.

My only suggestion to Jeff is to keep doing what you love, just try to be mindful of who your audience is and how you represent yourself.

Take care,
Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are some things in this world that I am absolutely an expert in (not card related). However, as an expert, I know the need to learn every single day. And in those things, there are likely some things that seem basic and elementary to other experts that I have yet to learn or encounter. Just like there are lots of things I consider basic that those other experts don't know. Neither of those situations makes either of us less of an expert in that field. Remember, there is always someone out there who knows more than you. I am less concerned with someone who holds themself as an expert but is always willing to ask questions and learn, than someone who holds themselves as an expert and thinks they know it all.

Agreed. As my father (and surely other parents) used to say:

"How are you going to learn anything when you know everything already?"

That's why we have the school of hard knocks, to teach us when we refuse to learn from other sources.

Speaking of levity, when I (too quickly) read your post, I thought it began with, "I met Jeff once in PRISON several years ago..."

So, I've recrafted the first part:
"I met Jeff once in prison several years ago when he helped me fashion a custom Teddy Ballgame themed shiv for my Red Sox man cave of a cell.
He was so courteous, thoughtful and nice, that we ended up sharing some laughs over a glass of my finest toilet wine. It ain't Sam Adams, but it did the job." :D