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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p><a href="http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2007/07027b.htm" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/news/2007/07027b.htm</a><br /><br />Hodges fell in the voting.

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>What an embarrassment ... Buzzie Bavasi had more than twice the number of votes as Minnie Minoso ... the HOF is a joke ...<br /><br />Veterans Committee election results for 2007<br /><br />Living Hall of Famers, Frick and Spink winners, voted on 42 candidates<br /><br />February 27, 2007 | Jack O'Connell<br /><br />(COOPERSTOWN, NY): The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum’s Committee for Baseball Veterans announced balloting results Tuesday for its 2007 election of players, managers, executives and umpires. Two ballots – one featuring 27 players and another featuring 15 managers, umpires and executives – were considered by the 84-voting member Committee, comprised of all living Hall of Famers, Ford C. Frick Award and J.G. Taylor Spink Award winners.<br /><br />Former Cubs third baseman Ron Santo led all candidates on the Player Ballot with 57 votes, totaling 69.5 percent of all ballots cast. Umpire Doug Harvey led all Composite Ballot nominees with 52 votes, 64.2 percent of the tally.<br /><br />With 82 of 84 (97.6%) ballots cast for the Player Ballot, 62 votes were necessary to meet the 75% standard for election. Eighty-one of 84 (96.4%) ballots were cast for the Composite Ballot (managers, executives and umpires), with 61 needed to earn Hall of Fame election. An average of 5.96 votes were cast per Player Ballot, an all-time high in three elections (5.72 in 2005, 5.34 in 2003), while an average of 4.17 votes were cast per ballot for the Composite Ballot.<br /><br />Results of the 2007 Player Ballot (62 needed for election): Santo (57 votes, 69.5%), Jim Kaat (52, 63.4%), Gil Hodges (50, 61%), Tony Oliva (47, 57.3%), Maury Wills (33, 40.2%), Joe Torre (26, 31.7%), Don Newcombe (17, 20.7%), Vada Pinson (16, 19.5%), Roger Maris (15, 18.3%), Lefty O’Doul (15, 18.3%), Luis Tiant (15, 18.3%), Curt Flood (14, 17.1%), Al Oliver (14, 17.1%), Mickey Vernon (14, 17.1%), Minnie Minoso (12, 14.6%), Cecil Travis (12, 14.6%), Dick Allen (11, 13.4%), Marty Marion (11, 13.4%), Joe Gordon (10, 12.2%), Ken Boyer (9, 11%), Mickey Lolich (8, 9.8%), Wes Ferrell (7, 8.5%), Sparky Lyle (6, 7.3%), Carl Mays (6, 7.3%), Thurman Munson (6, 7.3%), Rocky Colavito (5, 6.1%) and Bobby Bonds (1, 1.2%).<br /><br />Results of the 2007 Composite Ballot (61 needed for election): Harvey (52 votes, 64.2%), Marvin Miller (51, 63%), Walter O’Malley (36, 44.4%), Buzzie Bavasi (30, 37%), Dick Williams (30, 37%), Whitey Herzog (29, 35.8%), Bill White (24, 29.6%), Bowie Kuhn (14, 17.3%), August Busch Jr. (13, 16%), Billy Martin (12, 14.8%), Charley O. Finley (10, 12.3%), Gabe Paul (10, 12.3%), Paul Richards (10, 12.3%), Phil Wrigley (9, 11.1%) and Harry Dalton (8, 9.9%).

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>for not electing Marvin Miller.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>my autographed ball of him would be more valuable........<br /><br />Joe Torre is a lock once he retires.....as a Manager of course.<br /><br />Odd that more votes were cast per ballot than ever yet no one was elected....<br /><br />Think Doug Harvey should be elected.......<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I don't think Hodges will ever make it.

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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>It has become mind-boggling to try to understand the HOF selection process these past few year's.<br />Especially, after last year's debacle of not selecting Buck O'Neil and now this year's non-selection of<br /> Gil Hodges.<br /><br />Every year since 1985, I have been in Cooperstown on HOF weekend. In recent years there have been<br /> complaints by many up there that the crowds are diminishing every year. Well, it doesn't take a genius<br /> to figure out why....induct the right ballplayers and "the people will come".<br /><br />Could you imagine the New York crowd in Cooperstown this July, if Gil Hodges had been inducted ?<br /><br />TED Z<br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Shame on the committee for not voting in Tony Oliva. You let in Billy Williams and Kirby Puckett and keep out the best hitter in the American League during the 1960's? Unbelievable.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Do you think they argued about this stuff with passion like we do now, back in the 30's, 40s and 50s?<br />(obviously not on message boards...) <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I would love to learn more about the campaigning and politics that go on regarding these ballots...or be a fly on the wall for some of the HOFers' phone conversations while they debate these with their HOFer and non-HOFer buddies...cuz you know they are talking about it before they submit them!<br />

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I don't think they put THAT much effort into it. They have no regard for the 19th century and don't seem to really study too much any of the people. I think they're 80+ people living in vaccuum's that just vote.....I'd bet that some of them know little to nothing about the potential candidates other than those that they actually played against.....<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The fact is, Santo and Hodges and Oliva deserve to be in (at the very least), as does Marvin Miller. It will only happen on a year when no one else is elected.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I'm going to blame this on you. Your the one that keeps saying there are too many players in the Hall already. I'm just kidding...I'm sure the Veteran's Committee can mess up without your help. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey Peter, Hodges was a fellow Brooklynite and led the Mets to the 1969 Series. If all the other guys are in, he can come and play, too.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>They need to do away with the whole damned committee. They're a complete waste of everyone's (including their own) time and energy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>When I was working at Sotheby's during the week that the public could come and see the Halper Collection, one of the viewers was Marvin Miller. I introduced myself to him and the first thing I said was "you should already be in the Hall of Fame." He was extremely thankful, and very soft spoken and polite.<br /><br />Hope I didn't jinx him <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>that's probably it...but try not to be too hard on yourself! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Steve,<br />agreed. I envision the entire process resembling the popularity voting that goes on in high school on the yearbook committee when folks vote for most likely to ____, etc...or Homecoming royalty and such...but instead of vacant, Type-A teenage girls, we have crusty old ballplayers, drinking and driving on America's golfcourses

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Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>guys- <br /><br />as we debated a week ago...the HALL needs to be the absolute best of the best...i DO NOT think a player should get in, just because he is compared to others who are in, but who are "marginal" HOFers...like: "well, this person belongs in because so-and-so is in there already"...that is B.S...the player has to be one of the most dominating players of his era...the door for the HALL must be a very tight one in order to truly honor and solidify the reputation of the hall and its deserving members for future generations.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>MVSNYC<br />i think we all agree but the fact is it isn't.so until we start throwing some guys out, why not let a few truely deserving in?

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>I'll start by trading you Bill Maseroski for Ron Santo<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Curt Flood should go as a pioneer of the game for opening up free agency.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>the fact is the hall of fame is not for only the greastest players: this is the mission statement for those who can be elected: "Honoring, by enshrinement, those individuals who had exceptional careers, and recognizing others for their significant achievements." <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank God. As Mike said the Hall of Fame deserves to be the best of the best and not just for the very very good. Just because some mistakes were made in the past does not mean they should be compounded and overall standards lowered.

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Posted By: <b>Andy</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />You are absolutely correct about Flood. And Miller should be right next to him when they get in. <br /><br />Andy

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>Actually, Curt Flood was unsuccessful in opening up free agency. He took his case all the way to the Supreme Court and lost (in a decision that was an embarrassment for the Supreme Court). <br /><br />I'm a little fuzzy on exactly how free agency came about, but I believe that an arbitrator ruled that a player who sat out for a year was relieved of the reserve clause and thus a free agent. Shortly thereafter, the concept of free agency became a part of the collective bargaining agreement and the one year holdout period was eliminated.

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Posted By: <b>Steve Dawson</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />If I'm thinking correctly, I seem to remember it being Andy Messersmith and Dave McNally who were the first to successfully challenge the reserve clause and become free agents. Then when Messersmith was signed by Atlanta, Ted Turner gave him #17 and had him wear "Channel" as his name on the back of his jersey (Channel 17 was WTBS in Atlanta). Bowie Kuhn then interceded and ruled that was unauthorized advertising and ordered Messersmith to wear his real name.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>They were fighting the reserve clause back in the late 1800's...

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Posted By: <b>Andy</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />While Flood didn't actually break down the walls and open up free agency, his case was the first major blow to the owner's reserve clause and brought the union to a more powerful position than it had previously been. It wasn't a knock out blow, but it was a staggering hit. Flood should be celebrated for his courage and honored for it as well. IMHO. <br /><br />Andy

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Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I agree that Flood should be praised for his courageous attempt to challenge the reserve clause. But I don't think it's accurate to say that he made any kind of a dent in the reserve clause. He filed a lawsuit and lost. The courts said nothing that in any way suggested that the owners needed to modify the reserve clause. <br /><br />I do think he probably inspired other players -- like Dave McNally and Andy Messersmith (thanks Steve for remembering them) -- to come up with other ways to get around the reserve clause. And it's possible (I don't know for sure) that Congress reacted to the Curt Flood lawsuit by threatening to overturn the Supreme Court decision as a way to put pressure on the owners. This, in turn, may have caused the owners to accept free agency as a part of a collective bargaining agreement. So in these very indirect ways, Flood certainly may have made a difference.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Unless I missed something, not one single player who played from 1887 until 1929 received a single vote. Those of us believing Ed Reulbach, Bill Dahlen, Tommy Leach, Mike Donlin, and other star prewar players of that era might someday get in should not hold our collective breath.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I don't understand the voters for the Hall of Fame. For instance, how do you explain Cal Ripken being a first ballot HOFer? He was an average fielder with an average arm who had a decent batting average of .276 lifetime, not a great batting average. He was no Ozzie Smith or Luis Aparicio in the field who could get in because of his defense. He got in because of his longevity (the streak) and his national popularity, i.e the media loved him. Is longevity now the benchmark for inclusion in the Hall? Would you deny Sandy Koufax his place? I don't mean to pick on Ripken but his stats are very similar to those of Craig Biggio. I just don't understand.....<br />

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Posted By: <b>Danny</b><p>What about Dummy Hoy??? <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>"Every year since 1985, I have been in Cooperstown on HOF weekend. In recent years there have been complaints by many up there that the crowds are diminishing every year. Well, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why....induct the right ballplayers and "the people will come ..."<br /><br />You're right on Ted ... fans want to see their heroes in the Hall. And as long as there's guys sitting on the outside (Minoso, Santo, Oliva, etc.) who are significantly better than the guys on the inside (Mazeroski, Bancroft, Lindstrom, etc.), there will be fans like me who question the credibility of Cooperstown ... When Santo does go in (he will, mark my words), and if he's still alive when that day comes, you will see an ocean of blue cubs caps in front of the Cooperstown podium. You also won't see a dry eye in the house, and that will be a beautiful thing ... that's what the HOF should be about ...<br /><br />"Just because some mistakes were made in the past does not mean they should be compounded and overall standards lowered ..."<br /><br />Jim, the standards of the HOF have already been set by 70 years of voting. Mistakes have been made since as early as 1945 and as late a couple years ago when Mazeroski got in. The HOF voters are consistent in their inconsistency. Raising the bar now is simply selfishness and elitism on the part of the voters ... <br /> <br />"Unless I missed something, not one single player who played from 1887 until 1929 received a single vote ..."<br /><br />Bob, I'd love to see the ballots ... I have this funny feeling the current HOFers are only voting for players they played against. So if Feller only votes for Travis, and Morgan only votes for Santo, neither gets in ... As for O'Doul and other pre-1930 players, they're out of luck since everybody who ever played against them is dead. Only a panel of historians would ever vote Reulbach in because they're the only ones who know his true impact on the game ...<br /><br />Jason L ... I'll give you a Mazeroski and a Kell for your Santo ... <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Chris, that's a deal...we both get Santo in and two marginals out!<br /><br />TBob,<br />Cal Ripken is in because he is immensely popular with the media and the national fan base because he evoked Gehrig, much the same way that all presidents and candidates attempt to evoke Lincoln...(not sure if I am actually using the word evoke correctly, here, but I think you get my meaning). Now, that popularity is fed by the fact that he is last white star to play his entire career with one team, which evokes the concepts of familiarity and loyalty, which are also important to many people. He was not dominant in any way at any time that I can recall, and I was never interested in seeing him play. You know how there are certain ballplayers that you want to be able to say you saw play in-person? The HOFer should have had that quality at least for a short time in their careers, and I never felt that way about Ripken. He got 3,000, so he should be in...but, agreed, there was really nothing special about his play - except for the simple fact that he always played...and to celebrate that, well...that kind of makes me wonder why I'm not being elected into a Hall of Fame somewheres for attending and graduating from High School, College, MBA, and trying to support a family every day.<br />Crap, so he showed up at the ballpark and did his job every day. whatever!<br />Now I need to shell out a $100 for his signature on a ball because I made the decision to collect those things. I'm an idiot.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Ripken has all the qualifications. He provided offensive numbers at a position that historically lacked them--only Ernie Banks was comparable. He was an all-star 19 years, all in row. He won 2 MVP awards--that has to show some dominance. More than 3000 hits and 400 HRs, sprinkle in a couple gold gloves and a World Series ring, and I wonder what more you would want.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>I believe Cal is a legit HOFer, but mostly because he played shortstop and third base. If he was a first baseman or an outfielder, he'd be a tough sell, even with the record. The same goes for Santo.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>let's compare him to one of my all time favorites, outfielder Dave Winfield.<br /><br />HRs: Dave 465, Cal 431<br />RBI: Dave 1833, Cal 1695<br />Runs: Dave 1669, Cal 1647<br />Avg: Dave .283, Cal .276<br />Hits: Dave 3110, Cal 3184<br /><br />Those seem pretty comparable to me, and yes, Ripken did play the tougher defensive position.<br /><br />now let's compare him to HOF first sacker Willie Stargell.<br /><br />HRs: Willie 475, Cal 431<br />RBI: Willie 1540, Cal 1695<br />Runs: Willie 1195, Cal 1647<br />Avg: Willie .282, Cal .276<br />Hits: Willie 2232, Cal 3184<br /><br />Again, Cal's numbers are at least as good. So without even getting in to the rigors of playing a tougher position and the famous streak, it seems clear to me he'e a first ballot HOFer.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Good points all, and I do think he's got the credentials, I was just saying, "Where's the excitement factor?" Where's the "Oh, I have to make sure I catch the game tonight because Cal is playing some solid SS and hitting .276!"<br /><br />I actually think the disproportionate attention paid to his streak has done him a disservice...because to be honest, I can't recall any other darn thing he's done...I have no memorable moments of him...I'm sure there were some, but for me, there's "The Streak", the lack of hair, and the Billy Ripken FF card-which makes me say, "Oh yeah, he's Cal's brother!"<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jason L.,<br /><br />Your right Cal is not flamboyant...he's a machine that just goes out and does his job day in and day out. But that is pricisely the reason I follow him, he's just like us (or me), we just go out and do our job day in and day out.<br /><br />Nowadays, guys like Cal don't get enough recognition, so there's nothing wrong with Cal getting a little bit more glory than he should. In a modest way it helps balance the fact that the steady ballplayers really don't grab the attention of the HOF like they used to.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>That is a very good point, and you turned my words around on me very nicely <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ...but then why don't you and I get into a HOF?<br /><br />I feel like the Ray Kinsella character in Field of Dreams, when he answers James Earl Jones' character by saying, "I'm saying what's in it for me?!"<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Well Jason,<br /><br />If David Eckstein can be MVP for the World Champion Cardinals then we can get...nah it ain't going to happen, but it's nice dreaming once in a while. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Ricky Y</b><p>I thought Santo, Harvey and Miller had good shots getting in. Too bad.

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Posted By: <b>BcD</b><p>?<br><br>BcD <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Joe Morgan from the Veteran's Committee sounded pretty arrogant when he said he didn't want HOF standards to be lowered. He's probably just pissed that Pete Rose is banned from the Hall and doesn't want others to get in.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>peter ullman</b><p>joe morgan IS arrogant! he has always been an arrogant announcer...and I therefore don't really care for him.<br /><br />pete in mn

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>...that has always been plainly visible.<br /><br />He campaigned against Sandberg's HOF election...he doesn't think anyone else comes close to him...almost as though he thinks he should be the last 2B enshrined!<br /><br />Funny too, is that I have never heard of a Joe Morgan fan...(as a player or an announcer. So do we have any on the Board?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have to tell you he was a great player. In 1975-76 I think he was the best in the game.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>were you a FAN?<br /><br />I'm just innocently saying that I haven't met anyone that likes the guy, that's all...wonder if his arrogance has become more pronounced since his playing days, ...maybe he's become more outspoken or arrogant in an effort to be more interesting to viewers?<br /><br />(full disclosure: I just bought his rookie card this week for the HOFer rookie collection)<br /><br />edited for "fat-finger typos"

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>My belief is that a guy should be elected if he was a dominant player from his era. Otherwise, it is too difficult to compare players from different eras because of the difference in the circumstances. Why should a deadball player be penalized for not hitting homeruns when during that period Ty Cobb led the league once in HRs with 9 and was second another year with 5? I believe that for a pitcher the statistic that is most important to me is his performance compared with the rest of the league during his career -- the size of the disparity between his ERA and that of the league average, wins, wins plus hits per nine innings, etc. Same with hitters. In that vein, it seems hard for me to imagine a HOF without Jim Rice, Andre Dawson and maybe even Steve Garvey. These were the players that ruled baseball in my youth. Can anyone really say with a straight face that Joe Morgan or Ryne Sandberg or Cal Ripkin dominated during their eras anymore than Jim Rice did? Or Dawson? With that in mind, Gil Hodges, Ron Santo and Tony Oliva belong in the Hall. Anytime a guy gets voted to the All Star team 7, 8, 9 times -- he is clearly dominating his league and deserves HOF entry.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I can't really say I like him or dislike him. Enjoyed watching him play, he could do it all, but never formed a personal opinion. I actually don't mind his announcing either, but do I like it or dislike it? Never gave it much thought.

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Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>You make a very interesting point at the end of your comments, and maybe that would be a neat exercise...to somehow construct a question about the avg number of times that the HOFers have made the All-Star game, vs the avg number of times a non-HOFer has made the All-Star Game (from a population of players that have made at least one A-S game)?<br /><br />Obviously, it's not relevant for players with most of their careers played prior to 1933, and such...but perhaps some fun to be had there...<br /><br />then you could come up with a stat that would suggest that you need to be in at least x number of All-Star games to be a HOFer!!! excellent...I like black and white rules!<br /><br />This would be an attempt to use the All-Star game appearance total as a proxy for dominance...very simplistic and unsophisticated - just like me!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>I watched Morgan play in lots of key games between 72 and 79 and it seemed to me at the time that he was often the toughest out in that Reds lineup. You couldn't keep him off base, he could hit for extra bases, and he was as fast as anyone. My youthful impression was that it was he who pushed the Reds to a higher level in 72 and 75, at least. Does that mean dominant? When I've listened to him on tv he seemed pretty solid to me.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, that's what is so frustrating about the HOF standards: Santo made the AS team 9 times, Hodges and Oliva 8 times each (and Hodges won a WS as a manager). Forget their numbers -- how do you keep these three guys out of the HOF based simply on the fact that for nearly a decade they dominated baseball at their position? What more should be asked of you? Comparing numbers from different generations of ball players just does not provide justice.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Good for you Joe Morgan. The Hall of Fame is not just for the very very good but the greats of the game.<br /><br />We should not be compounding mistakes made previously in letting in the likes of Maz and Scooter to justify the current crop of vets not deemed good enough the first time around.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with that. The players who just missed were very good indeed, but were they greats? Borderline perhaps.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />So are you saying that Gil Hodges should never get in.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Good question Peter. No doubt he was a fine player, and he is as good as others who are already in. But was he a great player...perhaps not. Obviously, there is some reason he misses every year. Was he not a likable sort?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Happy to agree with you on this one. Guys like Hodges, Santo, Oliva and Vic Davalillo should not be in the HOF.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />See your starting to vacillate already...they loved Gil Hodges in Brooklyn. People were praying that he would end his notoriously weak hitting in the World Series...and he did.<br /><br />The only point I'm trying to make is that each of us has a ballplayer or two that we think should absolutely be in the Hall of Fame but has been passed over for whatever reason.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I have tremendous admiration for Gil Hodges. I also admire Bill Mazeroski...but I don't think he should be in the HOF.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Your telling me the best fielding 2nd baseball history does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Bill Mazeroski epitomized the old baseball axiom that it is fielding strength up the middle that wins ballgames and championships.<br /><br />Evidently, the baseball gods also thought that Maz did not belong so they pulled together this new Veteran's Committee to slam the door shut.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I guess my preference is for the guys that put up big numbers...and fielding percentage is a bit of a yawner. I know Maz was a fine player, but Hank Aaron is a little more my type!

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />So does Eddie Murray belong in the HOF. He's got all the numbers.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>With 500 HRs, 3000 hits, and those huge RBI numbers, yes. Of course he is not the best player in there. But a worthy addition.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Let's say that a bunch of baseball writers got together and spread the rumour that he was nothing more than a journeyman ballplayer. As a consequence he never got the requisite 75% from the baseball writers. Is this somebody the Veteran's Committee should subsequently vote in?<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yeah, I think Murray would still qualify.<br /> <br />I was just thinking of another HOFer, Orlando Cepeda. If you saw him play in his prime (I did) he was a fearsome player. But when you look at his career stats, is he HOF worthy? Maybe not.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Well...the Baby Bull didn't get the required 75% from the baseball writers. The old veteran's committee let him in.<br /><br />His stats were comparable to Gil Hodges.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I agree with Jeff...there are players from my youth like Rice, Dawson and Garvey who dominated the game and don't even get much recognition. I would even place Dale Murphy on that list. It seems as though they may have just hit baseball at a time right before the steroid era 1987-present which makes their stats look a little weak in comparison to the anabolic monsters.<br /><br />I would also suggest that Jack Morris is not getting enough attention either.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>There's no doubt there are dozens of candidates out there worthy of consideration...but they just can't all get in.

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Posted By: <b>Mark L</b><p>Whenever I sit back and reflect on the injustices of the baseball world in general and of the Hall of Fame in particular, I console myself by remembering that I can still distinguish a higher echelon of Hall of Famers, like Ruth and Wagner and Aaron, from lesser figures such as Maz and Harry Hooper and Cepeda, by the fact that the truly great were elected by the Baseball Writers and the less great, by the Veterans. There is, or ought to be, a first class cabin for the ones who were elected by the writers. <br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Mark,<br /><br />Well I agree with there should be a first class cabin...but you've already done that by distinguishing HOFs that came in through the baseball writers vote and those that came in through special admissions (Veteran's Committee). Isn't that a sufficient class distinction. Actually, the hobby also draws a similar distinction because the collectibles of first tier hall of famers bring in more money.<br /><br />I don't think it's necessary to have a separate corridor for the best of the best.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>The Hall of Fame is first and foremost a museum dedicated to baseball's rich and complex history. If you study the history of any subject, you'' will see it is constantly being revised as those who study it gain a perspective that is only possible after a lengthy passage of time. Baseball history, in this sense, is no different than art history, political history or the history of the Civil War. With a greater access to information (thank you Bill James!), statistics and personal accounts, baseball historians have a better perspective now than they ever had before. Plus, there are more people than ever with access to this information.<br /><br />In the early days of the HOF, one writer's opinion of a player like Roger Bresnahan was enough to carry the day. Frankie Frisch, as leader of the vets committee, played kingmaker for nearly a dozen of his cronies. <br /><br />Now the pendulum has swung the other way, and the gatekeepers are saying enough is enough. Under the circumstances (Mazeroski, Rizzuto, etc.), such sendiment is admirable, but I doubt many of the voters are even considering players they didn't play against. Since inductees need 75% of the voters to vote for them — and the ex-players voting now played in seven different decades — we now have a system where it's impossible to get elected. Which is too bad, because guys like Tony Oliva, Ron Santo and Minnie Minoso were truly great players who deserve to have plaques in Cooperstown ...<br /><br />By the way, Joe Morgan was also a truly great player ... but if someone ducktaped his mouth shut until the end of time, I would not shed a tear ...

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />The new committee has lifetime appointments. So what they have effectively done is created a situation in which a former player must be elected by the Baseball Writers. <br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />What do you mean by "lifetime" appointments? I thought the current system was going to be reviewed because there have been so many complaints ...

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Chris,<br /><br />I suppose the Hall of Fame can review their own procedures and change the structure of the New Veterans Committee. They've done this so many times in the past. I'm just saying that the current Veteran's Committee members (excluding individuals from prior committee) have lifetime appointments because the HOF thought that individuals would be less likely to be politically influenced.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Jason L, <br /><br />Would you mind explaining this quote from an earlier post you made?: <br /><br />"Cal Ripken is in because he is immensely popular with the media and the national fan base because he evoked Gehrig, much the same way that all presidents and candidates attempt to evoke Lincoln...(not sure if I am actually using the word evoke correctly, here, but I think you get my meaning). Now, that popularity is fed by the fact that he is last white star to play his entire career with one team, which evokes the concepts of familiarity and loyalty, which are also important to many people."<br /><br />The part I'm specifically asking about is: "that popularity is fed by the fact that he is last white star to play his entire career with one team, which evokes the concepts of familiarity and loyalty, which are also important to many people."<br /><br />I apologize for coming to this thread so late, but I didn't read that until today. Maybe someone else already asked you about it and I missed that post when I scanned the thread, but my question is: WHAT THE HELL IS THAT???<br /><br />Tony Gwynn, who will be inducted alongside the great white Ripken, who also played his entire career with one team, who was also known for his relentless work ethic and honorable character, does not evoke the concepts of familiarity and loyalty because he is black???<br /><br />I know there are many varying opinions on this board regarding race, but that's some crap right there.<br /><br />I guess Tony Gwynn lacked the necessities to be popular. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Although poorly expressed I think that jason L. was just giving his opinion of the perception of Ripken among sports writers and fans, not making a statement about his own feelings. I think he overstates the case but, like it or not, many folks root for people of their own race and the majority of fans in this country are white.

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Posted By: <b>Matt Goebel</b><p>Who roots for athletes based on race?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />We all root for winners and sometimes lovable losers and this cuts across all racial lines.<br /><br />I'd also like to get rid of the entire Veteran's Committee and start over again. Actually there's a rumor that there might be some changes to the committee. Does anybody know whether there are any changes in the works.<br /><br />If there is no actual rumor, then I'll start it now. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Matt,<br /><br />I root for athletes based on race... I mean, why would I root for a sprinter in a marathon?

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Posted By: <b>Chris Counts</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />I think I already started the rumor a few posts ago. Personally, I'd like to see this forum do its own Hall of Fame. We're definitely better qualified to rate players from all eras ...

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Posted By: <b>Ken McMillan</b><p>I actually talked to Santo at spring training. He was still up, but you could tell he was disappointed. What is wrong with the veterins committee? Santo is a quality person and was one of the best third basemen of his time. Maybe the committe needs to meet annually since they seem to have such a short memory as to not electing anyone!!!